Topic: lappy for 18chan 24/96 multitracking (I'm set up!)

[mmmatt]

Hey guys,
Looks like I'm going to moving over to lappy taping pretty soon.  I'm currently using a Mackie onyx 1220 mixer http://www.mackie.com/products/onyx1220/index.html   (> ua-5 > jb3) and I'm hoping to be investing in the optional firewire card http://www.mackie.com/products/onyxfirewire/index.html  very soon so that I can multitrack with it. I thought I would be able to do 16 channels plus a stero mix, but realistically I think I will be only doing up to 14 channels (12 independent channels plus a stereo mix).  I thought I read somewhere that I could use the 4 aux returns as additional channels but I can't find that now, so I guess I'm wrong there.  Not quite sure what I'm going to do about that part yet... I might go to the 16 channel version of the mixer.  ***edit*** I guess I had more questions than I thought!
     Anyways,  I will be buying the lappy before the firewire card, and I want to make sure I get enough processor speed to handle 18 tracks @24/96.  The guys at the retails stores are bozo's when it comes to audio.  The best computer geek at circuit city started telling me what programs he uses to rip mp3's and I about lost it!  So I thought I would come to the source!  I don't know how many people multitrack around here but I'm sure there's some and certainly many that understand processors much better than I.

Here’s where I’m at:
.

    I know that I am going to need a large drive obviously, and I know that I will need at least a 5200 rpm drive although 7200rpm is recommended per the Mackie site, or they recommend using an external firewire HD that is 7200rpm w/ 8mb cache.  I'm planning on the external, but big bonus if I find a lappy with a big 7200 drive in it.

I need a dvd burner… thems some bigass files

For software I am planning on using Mackie’s “Traction” that comes bundled with the mixers firewire card.  http://www.mackie.com/products/tracktion/index.html

I'm planning on 512K Ram.  If you guys think that is light please say so, but I'm thinking that will be cool.

Not all lappy's have firewire ports... WTF!  Not too big of a deal because the pcmcia cards are cheap.  However if there is a downside to using a card please point it out.

I will be using this with my aud rig as well, and I really like my present bag.  I could probably fit roughly 12.5" total width, so I'm looking mostly at the 12-14" screen size.  Smaller overall size the better.  I could care less about screen quality, this will almost solely be for recording, and just occasional use while on vacation or for work.

Battery wise I'm just planning on using rc batts or maybe an SLA.  I don't see myself using it for anything other than single shows with or w/o an opener... maybe 4hrs tops.  If I do something festi-wise, and I'm not getting 110,  I will most likely use my JB3.  Any powering advice would be cool.  They all run DC right?  Just match the batt voltage to the wall adaptor voltage and count your amps?  Are laptops usually finicky about the EXACT voltage or is that usually a range.

OK here is the tough one for me.  I want to get my best value in terms of speed.  I'm confused as hell when it comes to processor speed, fsb, p4 vs centrio vs amd, vs amd64 vs mac....  I haven't been able to really get it all explained to me very well yet.  I understand the basics of speed ie. faster = better, but the rest confuses me.  From what I'm gathering, processor clock speed is measured differently on different chips, largely in due to front side bus speed?  However, some chips are better at different things than other chips are, and speed is relative in some cases because sometimes they cant use the full speed.  I'm friggin lost!  Here is the one I like so far, but size and cost are big  parts of it I’d like to stay under $1200.  http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=34-149-015&depa=3  I'm not sure about the drive speed on this one yet.

Matt

[mirth]

Matt, you may want to look at newer Sony Picturebooks and/or Fujitsu models.... They'll be small, lightweight, long running, and would probably be able to fit into the cooler bag.

[heath]

    I know that I am going to need a large drive obviously, and I know that I will need at least a 5200 rpm drive although 7200rpm is recommended per the Mackie site, or they recommend using an external firewire HD that is 7200rpm w/ 8mb cache.  I'm planning on the external, but big bonus if I find a lappy with a big 7200 drive in it.

For multitracking I always use a 10,000 RPM drive (seagate cheetah or something like that).  Might be overkill, but that's what I use...

For software I am planning on using Mackie’s “Traction” that comes bundled with the mixers firewire card.  http://www.mackie.com/products/tracktion/index.html

never used that particular software, but i'm sure it's ok.

I'm planning on 512K Ram.  If you guys think that is light please say so, but I'm thinking that will be cool.

i would bump it up to around a gig, but, as you can see I am overly cautious

OK here is the tough one for me.  I want to get my best value in terms of speed.  I'm confused as hell when it comes to processor speed, fsb, p4 vs centrio vs amd, vs amd64 vs mac....  I haven't been able to really get it all explained to me very well yet.  I understand the basics of speed ie. faster = better, but the rest confuses me.  From what I'm gathering, processor clock speed is measured differently on different chips, largely in due to front side bus speed?  However, some chips are better at different things than other chips are, and speed is relative in some cases because sometimes they cant use the full speed.  I'm friggin lost!  Here is the one I like so far, but size and cost are big  parts of it I’d like to stay under $1200.  http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=34-149-015&depa=3  I'm not sure about the drive speed on this one yet.

I don't know much about processors, etc...  I have successfully used mac powerbooks for multitracking with a portable protools 002 system.  i think we ran 16 channels....

[mmedley.]

I'll echo the gig of RAM. 16 channels is tough on a drive. 10000RPM are nice, but I do not think there are any that are portable...too much heat, etc. Defintely get 7200RPM minimum.

I would also look for a laptop with a P4 and an 800mhz FSB. This is what I use although I only do 4 channels. The Centrino and M chips are relatively the same, but have lower power consumption, etc. I have not tested or seen tests on machines like this, but that usually means you are losing processing power or the like.

I got a battery for mine from batterygeeks and from what I recall it is a 'range' and they supply all adapters. You can find the right battery by looking at your AC plug  box thingy. http://batterygeek.net/ However, I would recommend always running on AC power, if possible. If you are running 16 tracks then you should be near an AC outlet no?

I have a Sager ( http://www.sagernotebook.com ) and I love it. Plenty of power, etc. They are not very small, but with what you are wanting to do, I would always get a tad bit more than you need and to have extra overhead. I had a picturebook, and I just couldn't see it being able to keep up with 16 tracks at 24/96. I could be wrong though. Good luck.

[mmmatt]

Matt, you may want to look at newer Sony Picturebooks and/or Fujitsu models.... They'll be small, lightweight, long running, and would probably be able to fit into the cooler bag.

Thanks Mirth for jumping in on this one!  I've looked at both of thoes brands, but they cost so much more for the features you get... a comparible sony is like $1700, and the smaller fujitsu's are $1500 for a slower processor, 1/2 the ram, and 1/2 the HD.  Unless there is something more than a difference in case design and brand lableing I'm thinking I want to save my dough for the other componants, but I don't really know enough, so maybe there is something more to a sony or fujitsu that will benefit me?

I don't know much about processors, etc... I have successfully used mac powerbooks for multitracking with a portable protools 002 system. i think we ran 16 channels....

Thanks Heath, I was sorta hoping you would jump in on this one.  The 10000 RPM and 1GB of Ram thing is something I've read in other threads here, and I might just take my chance on thoes.  If I need the ram I can always add it, and if the 7200rmp external is too slow, then I can use it for archival and look for a faster one.  10000rpm is faster than what I have seen so far in either a lappy HD or in an external, so that may be technology I have to wait on, or I maybe should just keep using the jb3 for aud recording, and go with a rack mount setup for the multitracking... that was my first plan, but then I thought about how I would like a new lappy for my aud rig, and ocasional general computing as well.  Processor speed seems to be a big deal, but so far the most I can get out of Mackie is the more "horsepower" the better, but they don't list any specifics on their site.
     I wish I could find somebody who is using this same rig so that I could question them about it.  Are there any good multitracking/studio recording forums that anyone would recomend?  I may just post this over at Oade too, but I feel like such a leech over there.  I'm not overly active on the board and it seems that the only time I go there is to ask a question in hopes of a responce from Doug... poor guy must get bombarded all the time.

+T's guys, and if anyone else has comments, please jump in!
Matt

[mmmatt]

I'll echo the gig of RAM. 16 channels is tough on a drive. 10000RPM are nice, but I do not think there are any that are portable...too much heat, etc. Defintely get 7200RPM minimum.

I would also look for a laptop with a P4 and an 800mhz FSB. This is what I use although I only do 4 channels. The Centrino and M chips are relatively the same, but have lower power consumption, etc. I have not tested or seen tests on machines like this, but that usually means you are losing processing power or the like.

I got a battery for mine from batterygeeks and from what I recall it is a 'range' and they supply all adapters. You can find the right battery by looking at your AC plug  box thingy. http://batterygeek.net/ However, I would recommend always running on AC power, if possible. If you are running 16 tracks then you should be near an AC outlet no?

I have a Sager ( http://www.sagernotebook.com ) and I love it. Plenty of power, etc. They are not very small, but with what you are wanting to do, I would always get a tad bit more than you need and to have extra overhead. I had a picturebook, and I just couldn't see it being able to keep up with 16 tracks at 24/96. I could be wrong though. Good luck.

Thnks H.I.!
Your comments on the chips echo some of what I have heard... you helped it make a little more sense to me!
    As for the battery, it will only be for aud recording, If I'm getting into the board, I never have a problem getting 110.  I'm currently doing 4chan > 2 chan master, and in the future I will mostly be doing 4chan > 6chan (4 independant plus a stereo mix), but when I can get permission to do so I will be adding a few key channels like guitar and bass etc so that I can sweeten the mix in post and manipulate the image some.  On a rare ocasion where I have the oppertunity (and setup time) to do a full patchout of the board, I want to know I have the juice for it.  I'm going to do some more research on the processors and see what I can come up with.  Thanks for the help, and the links.   +T

Matt

[nic]

while I havent done multitrack at 24/96, I have done many multitracks on laptops, PC and Mac
honestly, RAM makes no difference as far as the actual recording is concerned. now if you want to use alot of efx, compressors, etc in post, then RAM is a big plus. that said, I wouldnt run any OS(Mac or Windows) on anything less than 512.

HD, higher speeds cannot hurt, but I have run 15 channels of 16/48 on a internal 4200 with 0 artifacts, of course, 24/96 is alot more data!

re: CPU speed, anything OTHER than a Celeron/Duron over 1GHz is fine.
if possible try to find a laptop with a internal firewire interface, preferably 6pin(4pins work, but the connector can be a bitch!). you may not run into problems with a 3rd party firewire card, but you significantly reduce the risk with a built-in.

[heath]

Matt, you may want to look at newer Sony Picturebooks and/or Fujitsu models.... They'll be small, lightweight, long running, and would probably be able to fit into the cooler bag.

Thanks Mirth for jumping in on this one!  I've looked at both of thoes brands, but they cost so much more for the features you get... a comparible sony is like $1700, and the smaller fujitsu's are $1500 for a slower processor, 1/2 the ram, and 1/2 the HD.  Unless there is something more than a difference in case design and brand lableing I'm thinking I want to save my dough for the other componants, but I don't really know enough, so maybe there is something more to a sony or fujitsu that will benefit me?

I don't know much about processors, etc... I have successfully used mac powerbooks for multitracking with a portable protools 002 system. i think we ran 16 channels....

Thanks Heath, I was sorta hoping you would jump in on this one.  The 10000 RPM and 1GB of Ram thing is something I've read in other threads here, and I might just take my chance on thoes.  If I need the ram I can always add it, and if the 7200rmp external is too slow, then I can use it for archival and look for a faster one.  10000rpm is faster than what I have seen so far in either a lappy HD or in an external, so that may be technology I have to wait on, or I maybe should just keep using the jb3 for aud recording, and go with a rack mount setup for the multitracking... that was my first plan, but then I thought about how I would like a new lappy for my aud rig, and ocasional general computing as well.  Processor speed seems to be a big deal, but so far the most I can get out of Mackie is the more "horsepower" the better, but they don't list any specifics on their site.
     I wish I could find somebody who is using this same rig so that I could question them about it.  Are there any good multitracking/studio recording forums that anyone would recomend?  I may just post this over at Oade too, but I feel like such a leech over there.  I'm not overly active on the board and it seems that the only time I go there is to ask a question in hopes of a responce from Doug... poor guy must get bombarded all the time.

+T's guys, and if anyone else has comments, please jump in!
Matt

you can check out the remote recording forum on gearslutz.com  great info there.  lots of people using laptop multitracking rigs...

h

[mmmatt]

while I havent done multitrack at 24/96, I have done many multitracks on laptops, PC and Mac
honestly, RAM makes no difference as far as the actual recording is concerned. now if you want to use alot of efx, compressors, etc in post, then RAM is a big plus. that said, I wouldnt run any OS(Mac or Windows) on anything less than 512.

HD, higher speeds cannot hurt, but I have run 15 channels of 16/48 on a internal 4200 with 0 artifacts, of course, 24/96 is alot more data!

re: CPU speed, anything OTHER than a Celeron/Duron over 1GHz is fine.
if possible try to find a laptop with a internal firewire interface, preferably 6pin(4pins work, but the connector can be a bitch!). you may not run into problems with a 3rd party firewire card, but you significantly reduce the risk with a built-in.

See how cool this place is!  All sorts of people helping me out!  Thanks Luvean +T.  As you stated the amount of data is much larger in a 24/96 scenario, but will this effect my need for a larger processor or not?  Also, for the record, if this rig ended up being not so depenable at 24/96 I could still be a happy camper at 16 bit or at 24/44.1 for the larger runs and then maybe 6 or 8 tracks at 24/96.  I'd like to live in my little bubble though and think I can set myself up with what I need to do it all.

Matt

[BJ]

i think if you look at the pentium M, you will find that they actual processing is VERY close to the P4, while it uses a boat load less power....I would highly recomend going pentium M as your chip, it will save you power in the field, and will run ALOT cooler as compared to other laptops....

I also would recommend going to 1GB ram....

I do not know to much about the 24/96..so the harddrive speeds I can't comment on too much.

good luck

[mirth]

Matt - here's a dude who does 24/48 of 20-26 channels using nTrack, Digiset, P3/500Mhz lappie, win2k, 40gb, and 384MB RAM...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/laptop-tapers/message/6419

Date:  Tue Jan 18, 2005  3:55 pm
Subject:  Re: Multitrack recording software Help

I use nTrack for recording up to 26 channels (I've done 26 before but
I usually average around 20 channels) of 24bit/48Khz recording using a
Digiset, P3/500Mhz laptop, Windows 2000, 40gb internal hard drive, and
384mb RAM. I use about 20% of my CPU when recording 24 channels.

> Here are the requirements for ntrack
>
> CPU: Pentium III 500
> MEMORY: 128 MB RAM
> SOUNDCARD: A full duplex (i.e. capable of simultaneous playback and
> recording) soundcard
> OPERATING SYSTEM: Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP.

> Has anybody actually used either, or both?
>
> Marty
 

[mmmatt]

Thanks Mirth... that is hard to believe!  I guess I'm thinking way to hard on the processor thing.  The fact that I HAVE to run xp with the software will suck up some speed, and there are latency issues that I want to try to avoid, but this makes me think that a modest current processor will suite my needs.  I think I will hop over there an post about the onyx.

Matt

[heath]

The fact that I HAVE to run xp with the software will suck up some speed, and there are latency issues that I want to try to avoid,

Matt

fwiw, we run xp with our nuendo based system, and I have had no problems with latency while running up to 32 channels of 24/96.  I'll take a look under the hood tomorrow and see what we have in there.

[mmmatt]

The fact that I HAVE to run xp with the software will suck up some speed, and there are latency issues that I want to try to avoid,

Matt

fwiw, we run xp with our nuendo based system, and I have had no problems with latency while running up to 32 channels of 24/96.  I'll take a look under the hood tomorrow and see what we have in there.

That would be very cool heath... that would most likely set my mind at ease right there.  I'm trying to avoid spending all my dough on the processor if I don't have to, but I don't want it to choke on me either.  From what I'm gathering so far I'm thinking that the fastest processor in the world isn't going to make things any better.  I may just have to try one out and sell it if I need more juice.

Matt

[mmmatt]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok... I'm mid beer break fater about 2 hours of playing with my new gear.  Today I bought the firewire card for the mixer, a new lappy (the one I listed above), a 200GB usb2 7200/8mb external drive (maxtor) and a new pair of Studio Projects c-1's (LD cards)!  I'm in full-on multitrack heaven!  I'm currently running 14 tracks at 24/96 onto the internal (4200 asummably) 80gb drive with no probs.  I've recorded about an hours worth, and the curent file is at about 45 minutes.  I'm using a dynatek 2-port firewire pcmcia card, and it is all working fine.
     By the way, if anyone is looking for a good deal on a really tiny lappy, the avertec 3250hx-80 is on sale at circuit city for $999 plus a $200 mail-in rebate.  This is a nice machine for $800.  It has a dvd burner although it appears to be only a 1x burner, but it is better than nothing I guess.  They don't list very good specs on the site or even in the box... really the only downside so far.  Battery seems to be good for about 3 hrs, but we'll see what happens after it runs a couple of cycles.  Amd 2200, and 512 mb of ram on the board with 1 slot.
     The firewire card for the mixer is pretty slick.  It pulls 12 channels from the board straight off the gain, and a live mix.  According to the tecks at Mackie I should be able to use another capture device such as a ua-5, fa101, fa66, usb pre, etc... to add more channels.  It is set up so I can run 2 of the 16-chan onyx mixers in line for 32 tracks but he thought I should be able to run another type of firewire/usb capture device into the mix.  I'm going to try my ua-5 and see if it works after I make this sucker catch a 2hr 14 track 24/96 wav.  The ua-5 however is sold pending payment so I'll only have that for a day or two longer.  I need a new capture device/pre for audience recordings so if anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears.  I just learned that the firewire pcmcia cards don't pass on buss powere, so I'm leaning toward something that is usb2, but it is hard to find anything that will multitrack and I would like to through 4 or 6 more channels into the mix if I can.

Matt... a very, very happy guy right now!

[Brian]

Nice Mat!!  +T I just got my new completely pimped out G4 powerbook and will be doing 24/88.2 recording with Steinberg's Cubase SX3.  From waht i've read and been told, a 7200rpm drive is the minimum for any intense recording(ie lots of tracks).  Right now I got two firewire 7200rpm 8mb cache drives.  Cubase has not come in yet but when it does the testing will begin.

my interface is a motu 828mkII FWIW.

once congrats on the multitrack rig!

[heath]

big ups for the new rig!!!! 

I am currently in the process of assembling a new multitrack rig.  I am thinking about going with one or two Motu 896's, maybe a Octopre, or anything else that tickles my fancy.  So many options to consider, and I change my mind about 3 times a day...

anbody wanna buy a Digidesign 001 with the 6.4 update?   

H

[mmmatt]

From waht i've read and been told, a 7200rpm drive is the minimum for any intense recording(ie lots of tracks). 
my interface is a motu 828mkII FWIW.

once congrats on the multitrack rig!

I've heard that too, but I wanted to try the stock drive and see.  I ended up going usb2 instead of firewire for my external because I'm using a pcmcia card for the firewire from the mixer and I didn't want to stress it out too much... according to people at the mackie forum who use these things, the usb2 works just as well as the firewire.
     On another note, there is an awesome article posted at www.micsuply.com about setting up your xp computer for taping.  Some of the things I already do, but many things that I would have never even thought of.  I recomend you check it out if you haven't already.

http://www.micsupply.com/laptopoptimizing.htm

I'm trying to get a go-ahead for tomorrow night for multitracking Jacob Fred Jazz Odyssey in Chicago... with any luck I'll be bustin some 24bit multitracked love real soon.  The Wu next weekend is a for sure.  Man I'm excited about this rig.  I'm sure I will be buggin you two and others when it comes time for the mixdown stage... That will be a first for me for sure.  I guess we'll see how good my ears (and my patience) really are soon enough.  I know there are a few people here who multitrack and I'm sure many more who would like to learn with us... I think I will start a team! 

Matt

*edit* http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=36201.msg461749#msg461749

[mirth]

+t

[Scooter]

make sure you have some descent monitors for mixdowns, or if you ddon't, make sure you take your mixes around to dif setups to listen on (boombox, car cd, dif home stereos).  And get yourself the Waves plugins, they are indespencible!! (sp?)

[mmmatt]

make sure you have some descent monitors for mixdowns, or if you ddon't, make sure you take your mixes around to dif setups to listen on (boombox, car cd, dif home stereos).  And get yourself the Waves plugins, they are indespencible!! (sp?)

That is good advice for sure.  I currently have a Nakamichi Reciever and a pair of Polk monitors.  I like the polks better than the nak, so I think I'm going to get a pre and some monoblocks as my next little bit of sluttiness.  I went to a high end audio shop to check out some new loudpeakers, and the guy showed me the pardigram reference series.  $1600 bucks and the bass was absolute slop shit.  My polks were much better in the bass range.  The polks in the mids are average, and the highs sound great.  Thoes great sounding highs actually sound great with most anything...very forgiving.  That is the only thing I don't like about using the polks for my post work.  Every now and again I'll think I'm golden then throw a cd in my car and the highs are shit.  I have a pair of vifa tweets collecting dust and I may play with them as a supertweeter for the polks, or just hack the polks and wire them in.  they are sealed back tweets and have a great mid sound as well.

Matt