Topic: New Taper needs help/advice

[Grand-Master-Steve]

Ok I have read alot of the thread and I am still lost. I am not very smart when it comes to technology. So I figured I would just post this. Well I have taped 3 shows, Skynyrd, Maiden, And Sabbath. The sound of the three rate from C+ all the way down to an F. I am using a cheap GE-3-577A MINI-DISC VOICE RECORDER with the mic that came with it. I dont think it can handle the volume of concerts. It tends to make a loud wooshing noize when played back.Sometimes it will sound really good then all of a sudden crappy. I am interested in getting new equiptment, but know nothing about it.I am looking for something that can handle the volume and make good recordings. I want it to be small so I can sneak it into venue. I am not looking to spend alot the cheaper the better. Any info on exact brands/models and product information would be appreciated.

[bhtoque]

For good and cheap, you'd do well with the sony ecm-717 or 719(basically the same thing just new and old versions) around $90

The wooshing sound you mentioned could be from movement or contact. Make sure you stay relatively still and that nothing bumps the mic.

JAson

[Grand-Master-Steve]

Thanks for the info. About the wooshing, I make sure nothing touches the mic and I stay extremley still. I Just think that possibly the volume is to loud and screws it up somehow. I taped The Sabbath alpine valley show and you can barely tell whats going on. I am hoping maybe someone can clean it up a bit.

[Rich.]

Probably the bass.

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/

^ Great mics for begginers with bass roll-off.

[Humbug]

Stealth gear references:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=15920.0

Also, look into the rig I use below. Pretty good budget setup for rock/metal.

Samples:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=41069.msg528850

[Grand-Master-Steve]

Ok I am really new to this. I feel kinda stupid asking so many questions But hear are some more I just want something really simple. Are there any cheap mini disc recorders or anything that would sound ok? Or is it more the mic that is important? Like I said I just have a cheap GE voice recorder. Would that sound ok with a better mic? Or do I also need a new recorder? If I do need a new recorder what is a good cheap one?

I am not looking to make pro sounding recordings just something that sounds pretty good. If needed I could upload a couple sound samples tonight to give you an idea of what mine sound like so far.

Thanks,

      Steve

[greenone]

You definitely need to replace your recorder. A voice recorder is designed to, well, record voices - something at a fairly low volume, in a fairly small frequency range. A concert has very high volume and a wide frequency range (crashing of cymbals, low-end bass).

The cheapest solution is probably a used Minidisc and one of the mics that Jason suggested above; the bare minimum that would cost you is probably $150. You can't go much cheaper than that unless you start stealing stuff.

[Humbug]

Ok I am really new to this. I feel kinda stupid asking so many questions

Don't worry, but the guys here sometimes get a little uppity, as a lot of questions get asked many times, and a few hours reading old threads or the archive will help here.

But hear are some more I just want something really simple. Are there any cheap mini disc recorders or anything that would sound ok?

Minidisc is just about the minimum you'll need to get acceptable recordings. Try a second hand recorder off ebay (make sure it can record line-in, not just mic-in). Nomad JB3s are used a lot for stealth, and go for around $150 on ebay (make sure it has batteries).

Or is it more the mic that is important? Like I said I just have a cheap GE voice recorder. Would that sound ok with a better mic? Or do I also need a new recorder? If I do need a new recorder what is a good cheap one?

Mic is even more important..seriously, get rid of the voice recorder for live work.

I am not looking to make pro sounding recordings just something that sounds pretty good. If needed I could upload a couple sound samples tonight to give you an idea of what mine sound like so far.

Thanks,

Steve

Thing is, if you stick to a tiny budget, you'll end up wanting a better sound after a while. Better to get something acceptably good (eg Core Sound Binaurals, Sound Professionals CMC2), they'll keep you happy for a while.

[Grand-Master-Steve]

What I dont understand is this- I have audience recordings that are 20-30 years old, I know they didnt have all this fancy technology back then but they still sound decent. I wonder what they used. I really just want something that I can record decent without the wooshing.

Like I said I will post some clips later, so ya'll can hear what I am talking about.

[Humbug]

What I dont understand is this- I have audience recordings that are 20-30 years old, I know they didnt have all this fancy technology back then but they still sound decent. I wonder what they used.

Its all to do with buying the best equipment your budget can stand, and the preparation and care taken in getting the sound right.

The links down, but I copied this in here some time ago:

This section looks at the very important role played by tapers in recording and thereby capturing for posterity many Led Zeppelin concerts. Whilst a few soundboard tapes have slipped through the tight net (often stolen from Jimmy Page), the vast majority of tape sources for the shows that we enjoy were recorded in the audience by enterprising individuals. These people took a big risk, because if they were caught their recording equipment would often be smashed to pieces, sometimes by Led Zeppelin's manager Peter Grant, or by road manager Richard Cole or one of his cohorts. It was therefore often a big risk to smuggle recording equipment into a venue. Because of these heroic efforts many great shows are now enjoyed in superb sound ( and many can also be heard in not so good sound too). Many purists prefer a really good audience recording to a soundboard tape, the latter is often sterile and lacks atmosphere.

One man who did probably more than anyone else, and whose efforts have left us with some superb sounding recordings, is the late Mike Millard, the taper behind the best sounding audience recordings of Led Zeppelin. The shows he taped (with the best version on CD named after each show) are as follows:-
Long Beach Arena, 11 March 1975. 3CD "CALIFORNIA GRAFFITI " (Masterport).
Long Beach Arena, 12 March 1975. Only the last part of the show was recorded by Mike Millard, and can be found on "LONG BEACH ARENA FRAGMENT" (Holy). It is understood that he had a car accident on the way to the venue, and was considerably delayed.
LA Forum, 24 March 1975. 3CD "DEEP THROAT I" (Empress Valley).
LA Forum, 25 Forum March 1975. 3CD "DEEP THROAT II " (Empress Valley).
LA Forum, 27 March 1975. 3CD "DEEP THROAT III " (Empress Valley).
San Diego Sports Coliseum, 19 June 1977. 3CD "JIMMYPY" (Tarantura).
LA Forum, 21 June 1977. 3CD "WATCH AND LISTEN TO THIS EDDIE" (Genuine Masters).
LA Forum, 23 June 1977. 3CD "FOR BADGEHOLDERS ONLY" (Tarantura). Millard's tape is incomplete (he accidentally left the pause button switched on at the start of the concert) and his recording can be found on 3CD "FOR BADGE HOLDERS ONLY" (Balboa).
LA Forum, 25 June 1977. 3CD "DELIRIUM TREATMENT " (Tarantura).
LA Forum, 27 June 1977. 4CD "DEEP STRIKER" (Empress Valley).

Millard used a wheelchair for a recording prop. His taping equipment was a Nakamichi stereo cassette deck and AKG microphones. Various transfers from his masters were done over the years. Often the 1st generation copies would be slightly sabotaged by Millard. This was done by him to see who traded each version of his master. For example, low recording levels on the VHS copies or a few cuts here and there. Sadly Millard, during his depression, destroyed most of his masters, certainly all the Led Zeppelin ones. Tragically he committed suicide in 1990, but his family still own all the masters. The shows that he captured on tape and saved for posterity are among the best ever concerts Led Zeppelin performed. He recorded a number of other famous bands such as Pink Floyd, Yes, and the Rolling Stones.

[greenone]

What I dont understand is this- I have audience recordings that are 20-30 years old, I know they didnt have all this fancy technology back then but they still sound decent. I wonder what they used. I really just want something that I can record decent without the wooshing.

They had a lot of it, actually. The only stuff that's new is being able to record in digital format (minidisc, DAT, CD, hard drive) rather than analog (cassette). The basic ideas behind microphones and preamps have been around for decades.

A lot of the "wooshy" noise you're hearing is coming from your mic overloading, or the preamp overloading, or both. Basically, you're using equipment that wasn't designed to record loud concert music. A lot of this is explained in the FAQ threads...

[Grand-Master-Steve]

OK I found a few things would these work? 

Sony MZ-RH910

or one of these

]]http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-MZ-R700-MiniDisc-recorder-w-pc-link-discs_W0QQitemZ5795601355QQcategoryZ67852QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or this

[url=http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-MZ-N420D-MD-Minidisc-Walkman-Digital-Music-Player_W0QQitemZ5794870114QQcategoryZ67852QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[url]]]

or this

http://http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-MZ-N420D-MD-Minidisc-Walkman-Digital-Music-Player_W0QQitemZ5794870114QQcategoryZ67852QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemhttp://

Or are there any good mini disk(tape) recorders that work ok? I would actuall prefer that.

[Grand-Master-Steve]

Well I srewed that up abouve but they are a

Sony MZ-RH910


Sony MZ-R700


Sony MZ-N420D MD

[deadhoarse]

Well I srewed that up abouve but they are a

Sony MZ-RH910


Sony MZ-R700


Sony MZ-N420D MD

I wouldn't touch those.  Read the above stealth gear reference links.

[Grand-Master-Steve]

What abot Micro Cassete recorders? I know alot of tapers used to used those back in the day. Are there any decent ones out there?

I am trying to be able to tape with the least amount of equiptment and high tech stuff.

[Rich.]

Just get a fairly cheap md recorder and the mics I posted. Very cheap and great results.

[greenone]

Definitely no on microcassette. Again, not designed for music recording.

Either of the first two MDs you listed should do a much better job. The third one is for listening only; it doesn't record.

[Grand-Master-Steve]

so those 2 sony one will actually do a decent job?


Rich are there any specific md recorders you could recommend? Any info is appreciated. Sorry to everyone that I am asking so many questions. I just want to keep it cheap and simple. I am not a pro I just want some decent recrding from shows I go to.

also with thoughs mics do I need any special power sources or cables?

Thanks,

      Steve

[greenone]

so those 2 sony one will actually do a decent job?

Either of the first two MDs you listed should do a much better job.

[Grand-Master-Steve]

I am looking on ebay. The Sony MZ-RH910 is too pricey even on ebay it is pushing $200. The 700's are more affordable. I also found sharp minidisc recorders they seem to be really affordable. Which would ya'll recommend sony or sharp? Or whic modle numbers?

Rich let me know about those mics.

[Humbug]

This is a good site to check out, particularly the Equipment Browser:

http://www.minidisc.org/

[Rich.]

I am looking on ebay. The Sony MZ-RH910 is too pricey even on ebay it is pushing $200. The 700's are more affordable. I also found sharp minidisc recorders they seem to be really affordable. Which would ya'll recommend sony or sharp? Or whic modle numbers?

Rich let me know about those mics.

Those mics have everything you need. Particularly excellent for a novice taper. All you do is plug the mics into the md and hit record. It really couldn’t be any simpler.

Regarding an Md, I'm no expert on Md's but anyone with longplay and line in will do you. Although do try to get a more recent model.

[Ray76]

I am looking on ebay. The Sony MZ-RH910 is too pricey even on ebay it is pushing $200. The 700's are more affordable. I also found sharp minidisc recorders they seem to be really affordable. Which would ya'll recommend sony or sharp? Or whic modle numbers?

Rich let me know about those mics.

and this forum has a ton of info as well. just do some poking around and im pretty sure youll find what you are looking for.no offense, but these questions have been covered many many times.

[Grand-Master-Steve]

Ok A couple more questions:

Are line in and Line out the same thing? Because one of you said it has to have a line in, but some I am looking at say no line out?

Do I want a mic in? Or just a line in?

[Rich.]

Line in and line out arent going to be the same thing are they.

The headphone socket is the line out, so don't worry about that, all MD's will have one. Don't bother with mic in, all you need is line in.

[greenone]

No, some don't have line out...they have USB out instead, for dumping to your computer. But yeah, don't worry about that - there's always SOME way of getting music out of a MD.

[Grand-Master-Steve]

Ok some of the MD's I am looking at say this ,IN: line/optical no microphone input. Can you plug a mic into this or no? I was told as long as it has a line in it is fine, but I want to make sure. Is there any benefits/disadvantages or extra equiptment needed(if no mic in) to either way?

[Humbug]

Ok some of the MD's I am looking at say this ,IN: line/optical no microphone input. Can you plug a mic into this or no? I was told as long as it has a line in it is fine, but I want to make sure. Is there any benefits/disadvantages or extra equiptment needed(if no mic in) to either way?

The headphone socket is the line out, so don't worry about that, all MD's will have one. Don't bother with mic in, all you need is line in.

Unless you're recording quiet acoustic stuff, likelihood is you'll overload the recording on mic-in. This is why everyone is suggesting all you need is line-in.

Edit: With a minidisc (or most other equipment) recording line in, you also need: mics and battery box, not just the mics. Again, look into a second hand Nomad JB3, its a bit better than minidisc and much easier to transfer recordings onto your computer.

I do understand the uncertainty with dropping dollars on equipment, but the way to do this is download or trade for some shows recorded with stealth equipment (with known equipment lineage), and buy what you like the sound of.

However there's already enough information in this thread, let alone the links given you to enable you to choose something sensible, and hopefully to your budget.

Good luck!

Humbug

[Grand-Master-Steve]

I was looking at this mic:

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-poweredbattery1.htm

It has a battery box and is powerd plus bass role off. There ia an avril lavigne recording with it and I believe a Sharp MT15 that sounds amazing. THis is what I am leaning towards. If you have any input or something is not right with this let me know.

Thanks,

    Steve

[Rich.]

I was looking at this mic:

http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-poweredbattery1.htm

It has a battery box and is powerd plus bass role off. There ia an avril lavigne recording with it and I believe a Sharp MT15 that sounds amazing. THis is what I am leaning towards. If you have any input or something is not right with this let me know.

Thanks,

    Steve

Don't worry, that mic is fine. Just concentrate on getting a recording device now.

[joemango]

I've had an MZR-700 for a few years now and it's a good unit.  Recorded quite a few shows with it.