Topic: iRiver iHP 120 vs. Nomad Jukebox 3

[Alchemy]

I have been looking to get out of the confines of ATRAC3 compression and step into the world of wav hard disc recording in the stealth realm for some time now. Both units referenced in the subject are in my price range. However, there seems to be a few unanswered questions:

1.) I will be feeding this recorder an analog signal from a SP-SPSB-6 battery module. Is it true that the JB3 has some sort of gain from its line input? I've never heard of that before. Surely, the mic input would include both power and gain from the internal pre-amp, but is is true that the line input feeds gain as well? I don't remember reading that in the FAQ.

2.) From an "analog in" signal, it appears that the JB3 supports recording in wav formats sampled at 48 khz, while the iRiver does not. Is this also correct?

[phr]

I'd be leery of both these players especially the JB3, because of their battery systems.  The IHP120 has a sealed internal battery.  While you can get replacements for it, it's hard to swap them if you're at a show (non stealth) or something like that.  The JB3 has removable batteries but they are proprietary and hard to find.  Even the ones you can find are probably several years old (not being manufactured any more).  Lithium ion batteries lose their capacity over a few years even if they are not used.  So even "new" JB3 batteries that you buy now have a good chance of being dead out of the box.

There's a pretty unfortunate situation going on and I think the Edirol R09 is currently the best bet, but it too has deficiencies (see the many threads about it).

[divamum]

I'd be leery of both these players especially the JB3, because of their battery systems.  The IHP120 has a sealed internal battery.  While you can get replacements for it, it's hard to swap them if you're at a show (non stealth) or something like that.  The JB3 has removable batteries but they are proprietary and hard to find.  Even the ones you can find are probably several years old (not being manufactured any more).  Lithium ion batteries lose their capacity over a few years even if they are not used.  So even "new" JB3 batteries that you buy now have a good chance of being dead out of the box.

There's a pretty unfortunate situation going on and I think the Edirol R09 is currently the best bet, but it too has deficiencies (see the many threads about it).

I have an iRiver 120 and an R09 and I used to use a JB3 (sold it to pay for the R09, in fact). 

My iRiver was purchased new over 2 years ago and I still get an excellent charge on the battery; using Rockbox I can record for a lot of hours. Have never been in danger of running out (I think I probably get 4-5 hrs out of a charge).  The iRiver running rockbox has an entirely acceptable built-in pre via the mic-in socket (although if you're using RB double check your settings - "mic" means INTERNAL mic, NOT "mic in" as I found out the hard way... lol). If you plan to go with an iRiver, plan on loading Rockbox firmware immediately - unlike the original firmware, it's amazing for recording.  I love this machine and will be heartbroken when it finally gives it up; so far so good, however.

I also like my R09 - fairly new (beginning of last month) but no problems with it so far.  I like the internal mics in it much better than I expected and to date have run it pretty much exclusively that way (since my mics were going into the iRiver and I run them side-by-side)

The JB3 DOES have the possibility of adding gain, but most people recommend against using it; I just cut my losses and ran a Reactive Boostbox analog preamp into it from the get-go. Depending on what music you're recording, you might or might no need a preamp to boost the signal.  I liked the JB3 - very stable - but bulkier than the other two and I didn't really like HAVING to use an external pre. Also, it gets hot and sometimes shuts down when overheated.  But rock solid recorder, no doubt about it.  I had two batteries purchsed with the unit in March 2005 (it was a refurb bought via Creative) and never had a day's problem with it.

HTH.

[Nick Graham]

FWIW, the JB3 has been discontinued, meaning there's absolutely no customer or repair service for it. It's also getting harder and harder to find the necessary proprietary batteries. The iRiver on the other hand uses standard lithium batteries found in iPods, etc. - and as long as Steve Jobs keeps cranking out iPods there'll be no shortage in them anytime soon.

[bl6216@yahoo.com]

I would say go Iriver. Nice small box and you will not run out of space so quick with a 20hd and that was sad it use the same battery as a ipod that  is a +.

-Brian

[leshlush]

I love my JB3... I've run it for a long time now and expect to have it for many years to come even as a backup unit once I grab something different...

Unless you stealth, the whole JB3 battery issue should be a moot point... There are tons of alternaives out there to run the JB3... I currently run a VR-box and 9V battery and am able to not only run my JB3 but also my UA5 off the same 9V battery for probably 4-6 hours easy... Although I initially bought a VR box, I've since built a box for a friend and trust me, it's fairlly easy to do and doesn't cost alot to build...

JB3's are tanks... They're tuff little(ok maybe not so little) machines... They are tried, tested, and true...

I've recently been running an R09 and I can honestly say that I would never trade my JB3 for one in a million years... Don't get me wrong, the R09 is definitely a nice recorder, I just find that for my use, it has more limitations than the JB3... For one, the R09 does not have the ability to accept a digital in, and although the built in pre/adc in the R09 is made by Edirol, it still doesn't stand up to an external pre/adc...

For me, the only JB3 limitation that I see is it's inability to accept 24/96... But then again, there aren't many bit bucket's in the JB3s price range that do accept 24/96... The h120 is 16/48, the R09 is 24/48, and the JB3 is 16/48... The only one I can think of without going to a lappy or a pda is the MT2496, but again, the MT has had it's share of growing pains(mind you, people have been pretty pleased w/ the latest firmware)

To be honest, I haven't had much experience with the h120, so I really can't say much about it one way or another... But no one seemed to be chimming in for the JB3 so I thought that I'd throw you my 2 cents...

[Chuck]

From what I'm seeing/ hearing, the tide has turned and the iRiver seems to be the low cost bit bucket, of choice, for tapers. I just got an iHP-120, and I really like it. After you Rockbox it, it's a great little recorder.

[Alchemy]

Thanks for all of the responses.  

Well, I should actually add that I purchased an iRiver off of ebay last month. The guy listed it as "works great", but when I got it, it didn't work at all. Before I sent it back, I took the opportunity to open it up and look inside. I don't know, it seemed kind of "cheap" to me, the way the battery was just "stacked" on top of the hard drive and then the hard drive on top of the mother board.

So then I thought a JB3 might be a better solution. I've heard people that swear by them- people that have had them for a couple of years and never had a problem. But the power issue has me re-thinking...

The Edirol-09 is out the price range. If I did have the budget for that, I would prob. wait for something better.  

[Alchemy]

Oh, and I forgot my other question. I once read that the ADC in the iRiver is the same as included in the JB3. Can anyone verify this?

Everyone's 2 cents from people in the field is always looked at with the highest regard...

[Roving Sign]

Not really a big deal with the JB3 batteries -

http://cgi.ebay.com/Li-Ion-Battery-for-CREATIVE-NOMAD-JUKEBOX-3-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ180062002936QQihZ008QQcategoryZ75464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

A bit salty - but they are available...

[BayTaynt3d]

Luv my H120.

[halleyscomet8]

i really like the size and build of the rockboxed h120's. but, be leary of refurbished NIB because i think they had a batch of bad hdd's. but is you can get a stable one i think you will love it.

[phr]

That's interesting and good to know about the non-OEM JB3 batteries on ebay.  Still, 60 bucks per battery is a big ouch.  The JB3 has two slots so I'd want at least 4 batteries, I'd think.

There's also the Archos Jukebox recorder (long discontinued).  It has SPDIF in, uses a 2.5" laptop HD (you can put in a 160gb drive), and is powered by four AA NiMH cells (this is a huge plus in my book). 

Replacing the iRiver battery when it loses capacity doesn't sound too horrible (buy new battery on ebay, open up the player with a screwdriver, maybe solder something) but what you can't really do is swap a discharged battery for a charged one in the field.  So your recording time is limited by the internal battery.  With the JB3 or R09, you may have to stop recording for a minute while you swap in fresh batteries, but as long as you bring enough batteries your recording time is unlimited.

I'd much rather have a single compact device than a big thing or multiple boxes and batteries plugged together.  If I wanted to deal with cumbersome gear I'd use a laptop, no question.  Right now I have a Marantz PMD660 which is reasonably satisfactory, but sooner or later I want to switch to an R-09 or something similar, just because of the R-09's smaller size and battery appetite.

[jeromejello]

i have run both devices.  here are my thoughts...

jb3:
+ = built like a tank, interface is easy to navigate, internal clock
- = size, battery life

iriver:
+ = smaller (ideal for stealth), remote, long battery life, open source firmware (rockbox)
- = no internal clock, interface

i sold one of my jb3s to after i got my iriver.  i ended up getting a second iriver for reasons now i wish i hadnt, although it is always nice to have a back up.

i use my jb3 for open taping.  i use my iriver for stealth.  when i go to an all in one box, i will retire the jb3 to a mp3 player (and that back up back up position) or sell it.

[Roving Sign]

  With the JB3 or R09, you may have to stop recording for a minute while you swap in fresh batteries, but as long as you bring enough batteries your recording time is unlimited.

not true...You can "hot swap" batteries on the JB3 - no need to stop.

[Roving Sign]

i really like the size and build of the rockboxed h120's. but, be leary of refurbished NIB because i think they had a batch of bad hdd's. but is you can get a stable one i think you will love it.

I've never heard such a thing...

[Roving Sign]

1.) I will be feeding this recorder an analog signal from a SP-SPSB-6 battery module. Is it true that the JB3 has some sort of gain from its line input? I've never heard of that before. Surely, the mic input would include both power and gain from the internal pre-amp, but is is true that the line input feeds gain as well? I don't remember reading that in the FAQ.

Yes the JB3 has 12db of gain available in 1db steps. The unit defaults to 0 gain.
I never use the onboard gain - just set it at "0" and drive it with my preamp.
Some evidence that using the JB3 to add gain will also add HD noise...(seems to vary - probably depends on the HD)

The mic input on the JB3 is 100% useless...provides no power, and overloads if you fart too loud.

Is your battery box designed to output mic, or line level...?

[Yane]

Maybe this is in the FAQ, but you can use *some*gain on the JB3. You can change the line level by +/- 12db. DO NOT use the "mic" setting, which is digital gain -- sounds awful!

[Alchemy]

1.) I will be feeding this recorder an analog signal from a SP-SPSB-6 battery module. Is it true that the JB3 has some sort of gain from its line input? I've never heard of that before. Surely, the mic input would include both power and gain from the internal pre-amp, but is is true that the line input feeds gain as well? I don't remember reading that in the FAQ.

Yes the JB3 has 12db of gain available in 1db steps. The unit defaults to 0 gain.
I never use the onboard gain - just set it at "0" and drive it with my preamp.
Some evidence that using the JB3 to add gain will also add HD noise...(seems to vary - probably depends on the HD)

The mic input on the JB3 is 100% useless...provides no power, and overloads if you fart too loud.

Is your battery box designed to output mic, or line level...?

Thanks again for all of the responses. I read through them all. I think this was one of the answers I was looking for. The fact that the "line in" on the JB3 supplies gain is something I never heard of before. On my old Sharp MD, it was only the "mic in" that supplied gain, the line in didn't make use of the preamp at all.

Does the iRiver also supply adjustable gain from its line input? It seems that unit has only jack for both "mic" and "line in" and is switchable with an option in Rockbox? 

My battery box, the SP-SPSB-6, does not provide any gain, it only powers the mics. I think a preamp would be in my future, just not at the moment.

[jeromejello]

RE: iriver provide gain?

yes.  it provides both analog and digital gain on the line in (i havent used mic in, so i cant comment on that).
the gain starts out analog and then goes digital.

i have no idea about the specifics... but i do generally run my ihp with about +6dB coming off of my mp-2 set at about 8 o'clock.

[Alchemy]

Thanks jeromejello. I will have to look at the iRiver FAQ though, because I don't understand what you mean by the gain "starts out analog and then goes digital".

At this point, I'm pretty much sold on the iRiver though.

[George]

Thanks jeromejello. I will have to look at the iRiver FAQ though, because I don't understand what you mean by the gain "starts out analog and then goes digital".

At this point, I'm pretty much sold on the iRiver though.

If memory serves me right, the first +24db steps of gain are in the analog stage, the next +24db steps of gain are in the digital stage (and can add a lot of noise).  In other words, you have +/- 48db of gain to play with.  I typically never go past +20db of gain when running with a chris church bbox (no preamp) for loud concerts.  When I'm running my dpa's, I use the gain on the dpa preamp and just add a few db's of gain on the iriver. 

I have a H140 and I love it.  I will never look back to dat or a njb3.  It's easy to use, easy to transfer files off of and it sounds great (and it's tiny so it's easy to stealth with).  It's NEVER screwed up on me nor have I ever screwed up a recording with it...so its basically idiot-proof. 

Rockbox it, test it out for a few hrs and you should be set to go.  I get 16 hrs of playback and about 8 hrs of recording time with mine.

[petur]

The iriver gain works as follows:
- analog gain (3dB steps)
- digital gain (0.5dB steps)

Rockbox combines both to give a fluent 0.5dB step, so 4dB = 3dB analog + 1dB digital.
Once above 24dB, all additional gain is digital.

Do note that the digital gain works on the internal ADC data and not on the endresult (16bit) so the digital gain is not soo bad. Anything above 20dB - even pure analog - will be noisy anyway.

[Alchemy]

It all makes sense now thanks to the two posts above.

If I can get decently clean gain from the iRiver, I might not even have to bother with a preamp since I already have a bat box.

[IpaqMan]

I also have both the NJB3 and the Iriver H120.  The batteries for the NJB3 are still going strong, but I have only used the NJB3 for at home recording.  I have replaced the 3 year old battery in the H120 with a larger one, so I get about 24 hours of playback time and over eight hours (maybe twelve) of record time.

What I like about the H120 is:

1) USB 2.0 port

2) Long battery life

3) Small size

4) Replaceable battery (about $18 dollars)

5) Rockboxable with customizable firmware.  My version has a recording histogram.

6) Long lasting remote control.  I have had three NJB3 remotes fail.

7) AGC options to avoid clipping

8 ) WAV, mp3, wavpack recording formats

9) Fairly active user community

10) Clipping light option.  Tells you if your signal clipped.

11) Adjustable gain per input channel.

12) Volume adjustable during recording.

13) Rockboxed H120 is an extremely usable DAP.


What I like about the NJB3 is:

1) Real time clock to date recordings.

2) Replaceable cheap hard drive.

3) Rugged build


However, I have added a real-time clock function to my H120 by adding a RTC chip and a customized Rockbox firmware to support it.

Currently, I only use my NJB3 for at home recording.

[Alchemy]

I now have an iRiver iHP 120 and everything has been great so far. Haven't recorded anything yet though.

[petur]

if you don't need optical and do need/like the clock, go for the h3x0 series (h320/h340). As a bonus you get usb-otg...

[Alchemy]

if you don't need optical and do need/like the clock, go for the h3x0 series (h320/h340). As a bonus you get usb-otg...

Well I installed rockbox. Call me stupid, but it was really frustrating. When I went to the daily build page (http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtml)- there simply wasn't anything to download. Just a link to "old", which produced nothing. I ended up browsing around the site a bit to get it from here: http://download.rockbox.org/daily/h120/
Doubt that was the way to do it though. 

[divamum]

Looks to me like somebody has goofed and mislabelled the H1xx series incorrectly as ipod mini - the PHOTO is definitely an iriver, and if you click the link it's labelled for iriver.

That said, I'm no Rockbox guru - hopefully Petur or somebody else will see this post and help ya out (in fact, you might want to post w/a separate header so it doesn'te get lost in this thread)

Good luck!

[petur]

Well I installed rockbox. Call me stupid, but it was really frustrating. When I went to the daily build page (http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtml)- there simply wasn't anything to download. Just a link to "old", which produced nothing. I ended up browsing around the site a bit to get it from here: http://download.rockbox.org/daily/h120/
Doubt that was the way to do it though. 

There has been a problem on the download server but everything should be up and running again now.

You can also download the latest version from the 'CVS builds' page (http://www.rockbox.org/cvs.shtml).
As for installing guidelines, I think they're in the manual, and certainly here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IriverBoot. I admit it may sometimes be a bit too techy...

[Ryan Sims]

Check the FAQ thread for help with the installation.  Made it a snap for me.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,73139.0.html

[Alchemy]

Well I installed rockbox. Call me stupid, but it was really frustrating. When I went to the daily build page (http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtml)- there simply wasn't anything to download. Just a link to "old", which produced nothing. I ended up browsing around the site a bit to get it from here: http://download.rockbox.org/daily/h120/
Doubt that was the way to do it though. 

There has been a problem on the download server but everything should be up and running again now.

You can also download the latest version from the 'CVS builds' page (http://www.rockbox.org/cvs.shtml).
As for installing guidelines, I think they're in the manual, and certainly here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IriverBoot. I admit it may sometimes be a bit too techy...

+T for creating a great firmware for the iRiver. 

I had no problems with the directions until it said to install the daily build, where I clicked on the link and only "old" links were available. No big deal, it all seems to be fixed now. BTW, 48 kHZ sampling rates in analog recording mode could make a great feature one day.   Anyway, I love this thing with Rockbox, it works great.

Edit: I'm an idiot, it's in the FAQ. 

[bluevolvo]

don't stealth near as much as i used to, but i've had mine since 01.28.2004 (i know cause i got it the day of an ani d show) and it still kicks but.  like most other users, it'll be a sad day when it bites the dust.

and rockbox is the best thing EVER.

oh oh...that's 3 years on the OEM batt...YIKES!!