Topic: SAX>722 issue

[jmerin]

i I just got a sonosax MX/LS the lemo version, and when i run it into the 722 at 40 db and the 722 cranked, I don't hit 12 db on the 722.  I tried tests with the mics>722 and the levels seem fine.  I also tried tests with a V3>722 at the same gain and the levels hit way over 12.  I am just trying to figure out what the deal is.  I have a feeling that it is a bad sax.  I also borrowed a sax before and didn't have this issue.  I am just looking for some feed back, thanks


thanks

jon

[Brian Skalinder]

Check the Sax batteries.  If they're low, it'll output a low level signal.  Also check to confirm you're running Hi or Lo gain on the Sax, as the gain ranges are different.

[jmerin]

The batteries are fresh batteries, and the gain settings was set to low and cranked to 40db

[Brian Skalinder]

The batteries are fresh batteries, and the gain settings was set to low and cranked to 40db

Define "fresh"?  I've had more than my share of brand-spanking-new batts that were bunk.  Still the likeliest cause, I think.  I'd at least test with a known-good set of batteries, not just "new".

HPF turned on?  That would cut levels some, too.

[jmerin]

The batteries are fresh batteries, and the gain settings was set to low and cranked to 40db

Define "fresh"?  I've had more than my share of brand-spanking-new batts that were bunk.  Still the likeliest cause, I think.  I'd at least test with a known-good set of batteries, not just "new".

HPF turned on?  That would cut levels some, too.

fresh=bought them the day before the shows, bought a Energizer MAX
Alkaline 9V Battery -6 Pack

[Brian Skalinder]

fresh=bought them the day before the shows, bought a Energizer MAX
Alkaline 9V Battery -6 Pack

I've had bunk new batteries from both Energizer and Duracell.  Haven't tried many others.  Could just be because I use(d) them less, but I've not stumbled across any bad out-of-the-box lithium 9v batts.  Might be worth a try.  Might be worthwhile to test them in other high-draw gear if you have any lying around.

[jmerin]

i will try out lithiums, just doesn't make sense. 

[jmerin]

lithiums are expensive, i am going to try another brand, maybe batteries at radio shack.  doesn't make sense considering, i used one before with the same type of batteries.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I've run a sax into a 722 before and it just worked like any other preamp. You have some kind of issue with your gear.  I'd suspect battery or cable.  The sax has a battery light on it. I'd think that would tell you if the bats were bad.

[jmerin]

I've run a sax into a 722 before and it just worked like any other preamp. You have some kind of issue with your gear.  I'd suspect battery or cable.  The sax has a battery light on it. I'd think that would tell you if the bats were bad.

batteries were brand new, very odd.  the v3>7ss is fine as well as mics>722

[eric.B]

The batteries are fresh batteries, and the gain settings was set to low and cranked to 40db

try the high gain setting?

[jmerin]

high works, but i still have it cranked to 50 and don't get 12. 

[sygdwm]

lithiums are expensive, i am going to try another brand, maybe batteries at radio shack.  doesn't make sense considering, i used one before with the same type of batteries.

you have a ten-thousand dollar rig and lithium batts are "expensive"?

[jmerin]

lithiums are expensive, i am going to try another brand, maybe batteries at radio shack.  doesn't make sense considering, i used one before with the same type of batteries.

you have a ten-thousand dollar rig and lithium batts are "expensive"?

issue is sax>722

[Todd R]

Hopefully it's not the sax.  You probably should try different cables, both mic cables and interconnect cables, to make sure it is not them.

When I sold my akg/jklabs set-up, Tommy who bought it was having a very similar problem.  Turned out to be a problem with the interconnects he was using, and a new pair fixed everything up for him.

See you at moe. in a few days!

[jmerin]

Hopefully it's not the sax.  You probably should try different cables, both mic cables and interconnect cables, to make sure it is not them.

When I sold my akg/jklabs set-up, Tommy who bought it was having a very similar problem.  Turned out to be a problem with the interconnects he was using, and a new pair fixed everything up for him.

See you at moe. in a few days!

thanks todd, see you in a few days.  i tried different interconnects. didn't do anything. 

[gewwang]

fresh=bought them the day before the shows, bought a Energizer MAX
Alkaline 9V Battery -6 Pack

I've had bunk new batteries from both Energizer and Duracell.  Haven't tried many others.  Could just be because I use(d) them less, but I've not stumbled across any bad out-of-the-box lithium 9v batts.  Might be worth a try.  Might be worthwhile to test them in other high-draw gear if you have any lying around.

I would definitely buy a new batch of energizers or duracell alkalines and try again. The last time I had issues with bad batteries in the sax was when I bought a 6 pack of Energizers from a Home Depot before two shows on back-back days. The first show came out fine but that night and the following day after the show, I left the other 4 batteries in the front seat of the car in 90+ degree June weather. The following night as I was swapping batteries, the new batteries felt warm as I was loading them but I didn't think it would be a problem since the night before went fine. Then 30 minutes into the show, I saw the levels on my recorder jumping around from min to overload and the problem was the batteries since a new pair of batteries worked fine the next morning.

[baustin]

Here's what was happening over the course of multiple nights. I'm assuming Jon was changing batteries every night. First of all, the 722 was set to Line In. The channels were linked and after noticing an issue, they were turned all the way up ( +6 I believe ). With the Sax set to LOW Gain and cranked, the levels never left the green on the 722. With the Sax set to HIGH Gain and cranked to about +40db, the levels were reaching about 12db on the 722. This is during a concert mind you. To my ears through headphones plugged into the 722, it sounded fine, just low.

Possible issues:
-Lemo Cables
-Sonosax (Purchased Brand New)
-Interconnects (Sax~>722)
-Batteries

[tim in jersey]

Is it possible the line-in controls on the 722 were set to menu items 29 and 30 ( line-in gain controlled by menu sensitivity settings) as opposed to item 28 (controlled by front panel knobs)?

You probably already checked that but a quick idiot-check can never hurt...

[jmerin]

Is it possible the line-in controls on the 722 were set to menu items 29 and 30 ( line-in gain controlled by menu sensitivity settings) as opposed to item 28 (controlled by front panel knobs)?

You probably already checked that but a quick idiot-check can never hurt...

nope, didn't change a thing.  when i use a v3 it works fine, as well as another sax

[scb]

so 1 sonosax works, another doesn't?

[jmerin]

so 1 sonosax works, another doesn't?

correct

[Brian Skalinder]

so 1 sonosax works, another doesn't?

correct

If I understand correctly, it's not the same Sax, nor the same 722, in these comparisons, though, i.e. a completely different Sax + 722 worked fine some time in the past, while this particular Sax > 722 combo isn't working.  Or maybe I'm missing that it's the same physical Sax and 722 units in all of the discussion about "before" and "now"?

Is it possible the line-in controls on the 722 were set to menu items 29 and 30 ( line-in gain controlled by menu sensitivity settings) as opposed to item 28 (controlled by front panel knobs)?
You probably already checked that but a quick idiot-check can never hurt...

nope, didn't change a thing.  when i use a v3 it works fine, as well as another sax

Even though you didn't change anything, did you confirm by reviewing the actual config on the 722?  Not changing anything isn't the same as confirming the settings were configured as desired.

Tried the new batts yet?

[jmerin]

didn't try the new batteries yet, all the 722 options are the same.  will be using new batteries on thursday, if it fails tyhen i know i have to get a new one

[jmerin]

didn't try the new batteries yet, all the 722 options are the same.  will be using new batteries on thursday, if it fails then i know i have to get a new one.  its the same 722.

[Craig T]

I had level issues with my NBox>722 combo once.  Turned out to be a short in the cable connected to the Collette.  I cranked the gain (line in) on the r09, but couldn't peak above -12.  If its not the batteries, I'd send the sax and lemo's in for a checkup.  I didn't suspect the cables since both channels were equally affected, but it turns out due to the circuit layout of the NBox, both channels saw the short.  I watched Nick fix the connection to the Collette - damn those things are tight.  Mine shorted out because I pulled a bit of the cable right out of the strain relief clip.

[Jhurlbs81]

+T for your troubles Jon.  At least you have a back-up V3

Good luck with getting your issue straightened out.

Jesse

[jmerin]

UPDATE:

I bought new batteries and it works fine,  now i know stay away from energizer.  i had bought 18 badbatteries for the cruise.  now i know.  thanks again for the help

[F.O.Bean]

UPDATE:

I bought new batteries and it works fine,  now i know stay away from energizer.  i had bought 18 badbatteries for the cruise.  now i know.  thanks again for the help

damn, that sweet Jon! Crazy shit for sure, i would run it on 'high' gain setting fwiw, but i guess on '0' youd be fine too

so what did you do on the cruise when you realized you had bunk batteries?

[jmerin]

UPDATE:

I bought new batteries and it works fine,  now i know stay away from energizer.  i had bought 18 badbatteries for the cruise.  now i know.  thanks again for the help

damn, that sweet Jon! Crazy shit for sure, i would run it on 'high' gain setting fwiw, but i guess on '0' youd be fine too

so what did you do on the cruise when you realized you had bunk batteries?

its crazy, i thought my gear was messed up.  but now i know, wich i bought new 9 volts on the cruise, couldn't find any

[Brian Skalinder]

UPDATE:

I bought new batteries and it works fine,  now i know stay away from energizer.  i had bought 18 badbatteries for the cruise.  now i know.  thanks again for the help

Great news, Jon!  I don't think any battery manufacturer is immune from bad lots of batteries.  I've had bad "new" batts from the two big names, Energizer and Duracell.  At any rate, good luck in the future with your batts...

[jmerin]

thanks brian, its crazy 12 bad ones

[PH]

I've gotten bad energizer AA's on two occasions. I bought some a few months ago that were totally dead right out of the box. An 8 pack of them. I thought my wireless mouse was broken, took me forever to figure out it was the batteries. Like two days!

I switched to the usb mouse and then about a day later it dawned on me that it might be the batteries.

Great advice Skalinder! I'd give you a +T but I'm not allowed to yet.......

[shaggy]

Man, this is an eye opener!  I use these cheapy GP Alkalines (chinese) that I can get for 100yen a 4 X AA pack or 1 X 9V for 150yen.  Been using them since I have been here and never had an issue.  Maybe a letter to them would be prudent!  In the US I ususally buy Duracells (ultras are awesome) but use those Ikea (repackaged Vartas) that you can get 8 X AA for $2, those have never been a problem either.  I have had NiMH that have been failing despite complete discharge and charge cycles.....2000mAH Energizers (made in Japan no less) and 9V 150mAH Rayovac (chinese).  Lately these 9V Ultralife Lithiums are what I have been using in the Sax.  In fact, there is a UK vendor selling them for $40/10pack delivered (if you are in the UK, it is 20quid).  You can get like 14 plus hours out of them!

[silentmark]

UPDATE:

I bought new batteries and it works fine,  now i know stay away from energizer.  i had bought 18 badbatteries for the cruise.  now i know.  thanks again for the help

damn, that sweet Jon! Crazy shit for sure, i would run it on 'high' gain setting fwiw, but i guess on '0' youd be fine too

FYI, don't run your gain setting at "0" as it will introduce noise into your recording. You may not hear it during a loud passage but during the quiet ones it's loud and clear ...

Also look into running Ultra Life Lithiums, pricey but I could get close to 15 hours of run time from a pair. The other option is to get a SLA and power the sax that way. I've been using a 12v since I got sick of recording usage & changing batteries in the sax. It is a trade off to be sure. Oh and don't worry about the 12v being less than what the sax "requires", your battery light will flash at a quicker pace but you'll be OK.

[jmerin]

thanks i run it at low gain, and i am working on a power solution, 2 lithium ions,

jon

[smokydays]

I bet that some causes of buying new batteries that are bad is that they sit around in the retailer's warehouses for too long and they do not rotate their stock as it should be rotated.  Glad it was only bad batts for ya.

[Brian Skalinder]

FYI, don't run your gain setting at "0" as it will introduce noise into your recording. You may not hear it during a loud passage but during the quiet ones it's loud and clear ...

This strikes me as counter-intuitive.  I've experienced precisely what you mention when running Sax @ 0 gain > V3.  Any idea why the Sax is more noisy at 0 gain?

[BayTaynt3d]

Alright, with all of this battery talk, what's the best way to confirm/test that a battery is good? Is there something at RatShack that'll do it? They have battery testers, but they look hella-cheesy? Could you use a voltmeter or something like that? (I'm clueless on this front as you can tell.)

[WiFiJeff]

Alright, with all of this battery talk, what's the best way to confirm/test that a battery is good? Is there something at RatShack that'll do it? They have battery testers, but they look hella-cheesy? Could you use a voltmeter or something like that? (I'm clueless on this front as you can tell.)

I am looking at this:

http://www.ztsinc.com/mbt1.html

Pricey (about $69 at BatteryStation.com) but looks to do what I need.  Anyone try it?

Jeff

[silentmark]

thanks i run it at low gain, and i am working on a power solution, 2 lithium ions,

jon

That will work too jon as I also have a setup to run on two 9v walwarts ...

[PH]

I just a simple Radio Shack volt meter to test any alkaline batteries. Just press the red wand to one side and the black to the other and you get the voltage the battery has left. Most all batteries have the proper voltage they are supposed to output right on the label, so it's easy to deduce. I've found many batteries to have slightly differing voltages, even inside the same pack.

[silentmark]

FYI, don't run your gain setting at "0" as it will introduce noise into your recording. You may not hear it during a loud passage but during the quiet ones it's loud and clear ...

This strikes me as counter-intuitive.  I've experienced precisely what you mention when running Sax @ 0 gain > V3.  Any idea why the Sax is more noisy at 0 gain?

Agreed. I never looked in to the issue further as the simple solution was not to run it at 0 gain 

[Brian Skalinder]

A few options for externally powering the Sax, which takes 12v - 24v external power, and 2 x 9v internal power:

• 2 x 9v li-ion wired in series to provide 18v *
  
• 1 x 12v li-ion battery
• 9v li-ion battery wired through a slightly modified battery tray, i.e. tricking the Sax into thinking it's running on internal batts so you can stick with a single 9v li-on instead two, or a bigger/heavier 12v - 24v li-ion.  This requires drilling or dremmelling a small hole into the battery trays (if I recall correctly, the Sax has two trays?).  Split the cable from the 9v li-ion in parallel, so instead of the original 2 leads (one +, one -), there are now 4 leads (one pair each of + and -).  Feed the wires into the battery trays, one +/- pair per tray.  Affix the wires to a wooden block or some such, so they're lined up with the Sax's internal terminals.  Put the block in the tray, along with the affixed wires - the block will hold the wires against the terminals.  The Sax now thinks it's running on internal power, which means <1> the low battery indicator will work (don't think it works on external power, but I could be wrong), and <2> you have fewer / smaller external battery to schlep around.

The latter option may not be worthwhile given the availability of the newer 12v li-ion batteries.  But it's one to consider, at any rate.

*  I should add:  no idea if that's possible, it's just one potential solution.  Not my fault if your batts blow up or you fry your Sax!  Based on follow-up posts, looks like this doesn't work.

[Brian Skalinder]

Has anyone ever wired two wally lions serially? I didn't think you could do that with those packs.

I should add:  no idea if that's possible, it's just one potential solution.  Not my fault if your batts blow up or you fry your Sax! 

[Todd R]

Has anyone ever wired two wally lions serially? I didn't think you could do that with those packs.

I tried it, and it didn't work.  I'm almost positive leegeddy tried it and it didn't work.  So I'd say this is out as an option.

They now make "9v" li-ion cells, such as these:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2373

They provide 400mah, so they should run the sax for 4 hours or so, if they work.  I say if, since these are only 7.5v nominally, not 9v.  But with 2, that still gives 15v to the sax, which should be enough I'd guess.  The sax might be set up to shut down if the internal batteries are so low in voltage, even if it is providing within the 12-18v.  I'd imagine the low battery indicator is sure to be flashing though.

[shaggy]

Has anyone ever wired two wally lions serially? I didn't think you could do that with those packs.

I tried it, and it didn't work.  I'm almost positive leegeddy tried it and it didn't work.  So I'd say this is out as an option.

They now make "9v" li-ion cells, such as these:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2373

They provide 400mah, so they should run the sax for 4 hours or so, if they work.  I say if, since these are only 7.5v nominally, not 9v.  But with 2, that still gives 15v to the sax, which should be enough I'd guess.  The sax might be set up to shut down if the internal batteries are so low in voltage, even if it is providing within the 12-18v.  I'd imagine the low battery indicator is sure to be flashing though.

Not true, it powers the unit. These 5400mAH Li-Ions provide true 9V.  I had Marc make me a serial cable for the 2XLi-Ions > VRBox and a pass thru (as well as 5 and 6V outs, I am trying to sell this box and cables here).  I ran it two times BUT the caveat is that the Sax has some sort of ground loop issue, there is lo-level hum if I hooked up the SBM in the mix or the JB3 (in analog in mode).  I think silentmark can confirm this issue (tho I do not know if he used 2 X 9V Li-Ions as the power source) so it is not a one off of my old Sax. 

Also, I can power the Sax with a 15V 10XAA sled of GP Alkalines for 10-12 hours (I have done this two times).  You are right, about an hour in the quick flashing starts but that is a low voltage indicator when the voltage drops below 14.5 (says 14V in the manual but I think it does it a tad higher than that).

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I really don't think they can be combined in series.  All lion batteries supposedly have a circuit to prevent short circuits and to shut down the battery if the voltage drops below a certain level.  That's because a direct short can cause a cell to vent or explode.

Impedance is another problem with this.  In the case of that 9v, if one battery has more or less charge than the other, the impedance will be different.  That can cause probs with lions. I think you might need a special controller to assemble specific size combinations.  That might work but it seems pretty risky.

[shaggy]

Well, they worked in the field for a couple of hours for me without shutting down or exploding.  I asked Marc before he made the cable if he thought it was gonna work.  Apparantly he did because he made the cable and the pass thru mod on his box.  He didn't have a Sax to test it (so he didn't know about the ground loop issue).  Despite some problems people have had with these batts (having to rest them when they trip), I haven't had that issue ever.  They are the standard Wally World ones (ESA brand).  Both batteries are holding up well, powering the UA-5s without any worries on my part.

[silentmark]

Has anyone ever wired two wally lions serially? I didn't think you could do that with those packs.

I tried it, and it didn't work.  I'm almost positive leegeddy tried it and it didn't work.  So I'd say this is out as an option.

They now make "9v" li-ion cells, such as these:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2373

They provide 400mah, so they should run the sax for 4 hours or so, if they work.  I say if, since these are only 7.5v nominally, not 9v.  But with 2, that still gives 15v to the sax, which should be enough I'd guess.  The sax might be set up to shut down if the internal batteries are so low in voltage, even if it is providing within the 12-18v.  I'd imagine the low battery indicator is sure to be flashing though.

I know I can run 2 walmarts through your Juice Box as I got it to power my MT and the sax, but as shaggy said there is a loop issue or something with the sax. Both devices will work alone through the JB, but not together. I am not sure if that is in series or parallel ...

[Nick Graham]

Leegeddy built me a cable to run 2 Wal-Mart l-ions in a series, and it works fine. Not sure when he made Shaggy's, but mine was definitely later, as he had a Sonosax to test it with. It's just a 2 plugs (one for each 9v) into a single plug for the sax. I don't remember all the details at the time (and those PMs are long gone), but he found a way around the ground issue.

I'd take a pic, but it's actually packed up to go to Jon Merrin tomorrow.

[Todd R]

I know I can run 2 walmarts through your Juice Box as I got it to power my MT and the sax, but as shaggy said there is a loop issue or something with the sax. Both devices will work alone through the JB, but not together. I am not sure if that is in series or parallel ...

Thanks Mark (and Shaggy) for jogging my memory.  I knew the cable I made for you wasn't working right, forgot the details. I've just kept it in the back of my mind not to do it.  Interesting to hear Marc made a cable that did work without the ground loop problems.  I never had a sax to test with, so I had just tried a straight serial cable approach which isn't viable (at least not in all situations).

Forgetting the need for festival powering or an external battery solution, I'd be curious how those li-ion "9v" batteries work.  Seems like a nice solution for stealth when you don't want an external pack.

[shaggy]

Again, the ground loop issue occurs when the Sax and another piece of gear is hooked into the VRbox, the Sax > said gear has to be connected via analog in order for it to happen.  Sax alone, no ground loop.  I talked to Marc about it a few times via email but that was Sept-Oct 2005, that is when the wheels started to come off with his dealing with people on ts.com.  Now I use the Ultralifes or if I feel like a cheap-ass, a bunch of 100yen alkalines.