Topic: Cable Comparison with The Mic Hybrid & Hydra mic cables

[Todd R]

Todd, let me just say it's nice to have you in on this conversation.

Chris

Thanks Chris!

[Church-Audio]

Mr. Chruch, just curious.. How many aud recordings have you made in the last year?

I have taped about 50-60 shows over the last 2 years these were shows I mixed. And shows that dont get uploaded or shared. Does that qualify me? I dont tape shows I dont mix. I did not see this question until someone nicely pointed it out to me. Over my life time I have recorded over 1000 shows. most of the recordings are gone but I still have at least 300-400 recordings. Of shows most of the shows I recorded were done at the bands request. Some were done with out the band knowing I dont claim to be a taper I am more of a sound engineer. But I know the right end of a microphone.
 

[Church-Audio]

Mr. Chruch, just curious.. How many aud recordings have you made in the last year?

Your answer sir.     http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,71167.msg1078844.html#msg1078844

I answered the question.

[SparkE!]

I can't believe how reluctant you cable vendors are to do a test that can be adapted for ABX listening!

I also can't believe that it's so hard to accept that the best way to compare two things is to subject them both to exactly the same conditions and then try to understand the differences that can be discerned.

Come on cable vendors, show us some integrity.  Do the simple test:

The same signal into the same recorder, once with one set of cables and then again with another set of cables with no other changes.

I can do a lab test in ten minutes right here at home. 

Chris

Agreed.  You've spent more time rationalizing why it doesn't tell the whole story.  Why not just do the simple test?

[cshepherd]

SparkE!, you should do a better job of catching up on things.  The tests are coming.  Exactly as you describe.  BTW, what do you think of the differences in sound on the comparison recording?

Here's some more food for thought.  The Mic Hybrid was used for the entire show, but it's another chance to hear The Mic Hybrid in our element.  Same rig as the UM show.  Big Thanks goes out to Dennis Tyler for his unbiased efforts.

Chris

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,81147.0.html

The Slip
March 12, 2007
Workplay Theater
Birmingham, AL

Schoeps CMC6/MK4>van den Hul Mic Hybrid XLR>Oade ACM Marantz PMD-660
DIN, DFC, ~10 ft. high, ~25 ft. from stage
CF>HD>CDWAV>FLAC
Taped & Transfered by Dennis Tyler(dennistyler3819@yahoo.com)
Special thanks go out to Chris Shepherd for loaning me the van den Huls and to Clinton Vadnais for the guest list spot. Thanks guys!

[jackmf]

Between this thread and several others, it seems there is quite a bit of interest in comparrison testing of equipment. Why don't we have a listening conference? In another lifetime (the 80's) I worked in the hi-fi industry. We actually used to attend conferences where serious comparisons were made. While it didn't meet the qualifications for scientific research, it was good qualitative research. It could be like a tapers summit. We could hire a couple bands, drink excellent beverages, ditch our wives, rigorously compare products, etc, etc. Maybe even some equipment firms would like to provide some sponsorship. How geeky would that be. Man, I would go. We would, of course, have to make sure there were no fist-fights over cable or mod disagreements. 

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Between this thread and several others, it seems there is quite a bit of interest in comparrison testing of equipment. Why don't we have a listening conference? In another lifetime (the 80's) I worked in the hi-fi industry. We actually used to attend conferences where serious comparisons were made. While it didn't meet the qualifications for scientific research, it was good qualitative research. It could be like a tapers summit. We could hire a couple bands, drink excellent beverages, ditch our wives, rigorously compare products, etc, etc. Maybe even some equipment firms would like to provide some sponsorship. How geeky would that be. Man, I would go. We would, of course, have to make sure there were no fist-fights over cable or mod disagreements. 

Paper Rock Scissors to determine winners of arguements...

Good idea, we need to have a TS Party once a year to talk smack and get rid of bad blood...

Terry

[Church-Audio]

I said some very stupid things again. And I owe a few people an apology for even insinuating that they were less then honest. A debate over a testing method got twisted into a personal attack on both sides. For my side I am responsible for my words. There is no one to blame but me. This tread turned to shit mostly because I would not budge an inch on my position of how to test a cable and in the process of debate things were said that should not have been said. I made some comments about cable builders in general that I would like to say I sorry for saying. My position about how to test a cable is unchanged, but there was no need to take things to a personal level, so that's all I wanted to say. I know I have apologized before for remarks I have made in the past but I think I finally get every ones point, I guess I am not very good at communication, and I do come off as arrogant that was not my intention but that is exactly how it looks when I read my own words. For that I owe all of you an apology I like to share what I know but I think in the future try and find a more constructive way to "add" my view to threads instead of force my view. I am a bit thick headed and I should have just stated my point and left it at that.

[SparkE!]

SparkE!, you should do a better job of catching up on things.  The tests are coming.  Exactly as you describe.  BTW, what do you think of the differences in sound on the comparison recording?

I'm caught up on things Chris.  Not much gets by me.  I've seen that you've offered to do the tests.  I just wish you'd invest more effort in doing some well-controlled tests and less effort on trying to rationalize why those tests are somehow irrelevant and why they have to wait until April (when everyone will have lost interest in this thread).  If you had put your "10 minutes" into the tests, we'd all be listening to relevant ABX comparisons now instead of hurling obtuse insults at each other at each other under the guise of being somehow uniquely true to the noble art of live recording.

And yeah, I listened to the recordings.  They don't tell me anything.  How could they?  I'm not familiar enough with Umphrey's McGee's music to have any point of reference.  And that's exactly my point.  There is no common point of reference for anyone that is not intimately familiar with Umphrey's McGee's music.

[jcrab66]

hey chris (shepard), when you go to do the testing in april might i suggest using the mudhoney croc show from last year as test vehicle 

[PH]

I've agreed to try out the Hybrid cables next week. Dennis is sending them my way and Chris Shepherd is also sending some other guitar and interconnect cables for some other testing I have planned.

I am planning to do this:
Rubber band a pair of CMC6/MK4's (matched) together and close mic a Collings guitar played by Cody Kilby.
I'm going to use one cable from each maker and record the pair in stereo to a stock R4. I'll then flip the cables to the other mic and retest.
That will give you two seperate tests for each cable, one with each mic. That should isolate any difference between the two matched mics. I'm sure the difference in the mics is less than the difference in the cables, but we shall see.

I'm going to test:
 Gumbino's hi-ho silvers VS Van Den Hol's Mic Hybrid
 Mogami VS Canare
 el cheapo VS Van Del Hol's
probably test the mogami vs gumbino's too.

Each cable will go directly from the mic to the stock R4 for recording. no splitters, nothing. 

after that, I have several other tests planned such as testing out a few pre's
V3 vs R4
Great River VS Grace V3 versus Neve Portico VS API 3124
etc......

I am in the market to buy some new cable and pre's right now, so this test is mainly for me, but I'm sure others would like to hear the results.
I'll try to test it out on other instruments or a live club setting, but not sure that is possible to do right now. I'll start with the guitar tests and see what happens.

I've spent many hundreds of dollars on cables over the years and I suspect I know what makes a good cable, it's completely transparent. Cheap cables aren't, that's a fact. It doesn't mean you need to spend $500 on a pair of mic cables, but the less the cable gets in the way of your clarity, the better off the recording will be. The better the wire, the better the chances of making a good recording.

About cable burn-in, that's a misnomer. Cables do sound much better after they have "burned in", however very few people understand that as soon as you touch or move them, they lose that quality. It takes a few days of being untouched or perfectly still to achieve that effect, it happens on the sub-atomic level.

For us tapers, that has no value at all. We move our cables around constantly.
It does have major value in a playback system where cables are usually left alone for long periods of time.
Ever move your speaker cables around and notice they don't sound as good for a while? that's it.

look for these results to be posted in a NEW thread late next week or so.
Cheers, Phil

[Church-Audio]

I've agreed to try out the Hybrid cables next week. Dennis is sending them my way and Chris Shepherd is also sending some other guitar and interconnect cables for some other testing I have planned.

I am planning to do this:
Rubber band a pair of CMC6/MK4's (matched) together and close mic a Collings guitar played by Cody Kilby.
I'm going to use one cable from each maker and then flip the cable to the other mic.

I'm going to test:
 gumbino's hi-ho silvers
 hybrids
 mogami
 canare
 el cheapo

Each cable will go directly from the mic to the stock R4 for recording.

after that, I have several other tests planned such as testing out a few pre's
V3 vs R4
Great River VS Grace V3
Neve Portico VS Grace V3
API 3124 VS Neve Portico
 etc......

I am in the market to buy some new cable and pre's right now, so this test is mainly for me, but I'm sure others would like to hear the results.

I'll try to test it out on other instruments or a live club setting, but not sure that is possible to do right now. I'll start with the guitar tests and see what happens.

I've spent many hundreds of dollars on cables over the years and I suspect I know what makes a good cable, it's completely transparent. Cheap cables aren't, that's a fact. It doesn't mean you need to spend $250 on a pair of mic cables, but the less the cable gets in the way of your clarity, the better off the recording will be.

About cable burn-in, that's a misnomer. Cables do sound much better after they have "burned in", however very few people understand that as soon as you touch or move them, they lose that quality. It takes a few days of being untouched or perfectly still to achieve that effect, it happens on the sub-atomic level.

For us tapers, that has no value at all. We move our cables around constantly.
It does have major value in a playback system where cables are usually left alone for long periods of time.
Ever move your speaker cables around and notice they don't sound as good for a while, that's it.

look for these results to be posted in a NEW thread late next week or so.
Cheers, Phil

Hey Phil let me know when its done I would like to hear it.

[Corbin]

I did a quick cable test last week..

Using the same mic in the same position, I recorded my stereo with the stock LSD2 cable and with a Hydra XLR that I got from Nick.  Once I listened to the two recordings I was amazed at how much of a difference the Hydra made.  The transparency of the Hydra is definitely worth the money I paid for it. 

[SparkE!]

The same signal into the same recorder, once with one set of cables and then again with another set of cables with no other changes.

The only way I know of to get the same signal twice is to play back the same recording, once through one set of cables and again through another set of cables.  Having some guys play the same song twice isn't going to cut it.  You will be able to tell the difference if you rely on people to play the same song twice.  The goal needs to be two recordings of exactly the same signal, one through one set of cables and another through another set of cables.  That way you can do ABX testing.  If the source material is not the same, it will be easy to recognize one recording vs. the other.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

If the source material is not the same, it will be easy to recognize one recording vs. the other.

I argue that is somewhat specious.  Jason is running a v3 vs. 722 A/D comp right now... And they are from the same live source. I can fairly easily tell which is A and which is B. Though I do not know for certain which is the v3 or 722. Merely being able to differentiate between the two recordings does not invalidate the comp.