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Offline noam

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What causes listening fatigue?
« on: May 10, 2007, 04:20:28 PM »
I don’t know which forum this question belongs to.

I listen almost daily to recordings WiFiJeff makes with his DPA 4060’s> MMA6000>Sonosax MiniR82 and I sometimes compare them to other mics he uses or to my tapes (mk4/mk2S>lemosax>D1) if I happen to attend the same performance. I don’t have consistent preferences – I end up liking one or another setup, depending on the setting. But irrespective of the results of these auditions, when I play the DPA 4060’s tapes just for fun and not for auditioning, I find the sound extremely pleasant and, more significantly, with zero listening fatigue. No other mic has this light, airy, transparent quality.

What is the cause of listening fatigue? What is unique about a mic with less listening fatigue? Is it less emphasis in the mid bass? I have a friend who edits using SF8 – he does something with the 20band Graphic Equalizer in S.F. to get tapes with warm sound and very little listening fatigue (he thinks the explanation some commercial recordings are very tiring because of some form of compression across certain frequencies that gives a  "puffed up" sound.) Can you reduce listening fatigue by playing with the equalizer in your editing software?


Noam

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 05:30:11 PM »
I don’t know which forum this question belongs to.

I listen almost daily to recordings WiFiJeff makes with his DPA 4060’s> MMA6000>Sonosax MiniR82 and I sometimes compare them to other mics he uses or to my tapes (mk4/mk2S>lemosax>D1) if I happen to attend the same performance. I don’t have consistent preferences – I end up liking one or another setup, depending on the setting. But irrespective of the results of these auditions, when I play the DPA 4060’s tapes just for fun and not for auditioning, I find the sound extremely pleasant and, more significantly, with zero listening fatigue. No other mic has this light, airy, transparent quality.

What is the cause of listening fatigue? What is unique about a mic with less listening fatigue? Is it less emphasis in the mid bass? I have a friend who edits using SF8 – he does something with the 20band Graphic Equalizer in S.F. to get tapes with warm sound and very little listening fatigue (he thinks the explanation some commercial recordings are very tiring because of some form of compression across certain frequencies that gives a  "puffed up" sound.) Can you reduce listening fatigue by playing with the equalizer in your editing software?


Noam

Listening fatigue is usually caused by a band of frequencies between 1000hz and 5000hz. Or 1k and 5K this region is the most sensitive region for they human ear. Any peeks in this band are generally speaking responsible for listening fatigue. But sometimes it happens when you are listening to anything for too long and concentrating on the sound too much. As a live sound engineer its pretty easy to get when I am doing a mix, In the studio its a major problem as well.. I find speakers that are equalized correctly or just good speakers solve this problem.. You have noticed it with your source so if you notice that your getting fatigued look at the range between 1k and 5k in your sound editing program and maybe do some minor adjustments to try and smooth that area out.. But remember its also a very important range for intelligibility..
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Offline boojum

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 06:32:38 PM »
Bad speakers more than anything I know.    8)
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline bgalizio

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 08:07:51 PM »
Bad speakers more than anything I know.    8)

bad music?

Can't get fatigue if you don't put it on :)

Offline DSatz

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2007, 12:03:51 PM »
noam, just as a thought experiment, if you have a recording that gives you listener fatigue, and while you're playing it back I come in and make a (hypothetically) perfect recording of that sound, then presumably you would also get fatigue from listening to my recording through a perfect playback system.

What this tells me is that unfortunately, there probably won't be any one clear, authoritative answer to your question since it can be due to something in the original sound, in the recording method or recording equipment, in the way the recording is processed before it is played back, and/or in the playback equipment.

For example, a radio announcer could be speaking into a high-quality cardioid microphone that has some proximity effect, causing a moderate exaggeration of the low and low-mid frequencies of his voice. This could then be going through a board that has the gain set too high, causing the radio station's compressor to kick in (raising the average levels).

And then this signal could be going through another, faster-acting multi-band compressor, and my upstairs neighbors could be listening to it with their speakers standing directly on the floor, and with the "loudness" switch on their receiver turned on because they don't know what it's for. Meanwhile I'm beneath them and all I hear is the energy below about 250 Hz from the announcer's voice, at an almost constant level and yes--I'm getting pretty fatigued by that.

By itself, no one link in that chain is inherently evil or technically inappropriate; it's the succession and the combination of all those things which creates the aggravation.

But most people, I think, think of distortion (particularly with IM products in the 1-to-several-kHz region, as someone else suggested) as a big culprit, too. Basically whatever people do to make their songs "grab your attention" can easily become the very same things which make them tiring to listen to.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 12:06:08 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline rowjimmy

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2007, 12:38:57 PM »
Bad speakers more than anything I know.    8)

I thought it was due to staying up too late.  ;)

Seriously, though, +t for all. I just learned something.
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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2007, 01:07:18 PM »
Bad speakers more than anything I know.    8)

bad music?

Can't get fatigue if you don't put it on :)

Too much of any one thing...

Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2007, 05:36:34 PM »

What this tells me is that unfortunately, there probably won't be any one clear, authoritative answer to your question since it can be due to something in the original sound, in the recording method or recording equipment, in the way the recording is processed before it is played back, and/or in the playback equipment.


I think (correct me if I'm off on this Noam) the issue is more like the following: two guys at the same really loud Bruckner symphony, or maybe a piano recital, sitting pretty much next to each other, one going DPA4060 > MMA6000 > MiniR82 (24/96), the other MK2S or MK4 > (actives) > LemoSax > Sony D1 (24/96), neither doing Eq or other processing.  Sometimes a listening test prefers one rig to another, but the fatigue factor is lower on the DPA rig.  Is this a function of DPA mics, and if so how do you DPAize your Schoeps recording in post?

Jeff

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2007, 05:46:47 PM »
Interesting subject - your ears are the only organic factor in the process...

I find I cant make any real appraisals of recordings right after the gig - especially at rock shows...I lose my "articulation" frequencies...my ears just can hear the finer points after being exposed to large scale sound reproduction...I can tell - good job/bad job for the most part - but I wont really hear the "musicality" until morning...after some ear rest...showers are good too!

Offline Tim

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2007, 05:52:25 PM »
sounds like your ears like omni's :)
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Offline noam

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 06:40:08 PM »

What this tells me is that unfortunately, there probably won't be any one clear, authoritative answer to your question since it can be due to something in the original sound, in the recording method or recording equipment, in the way the recording is processed before it is played back, and/or in the playback equipment.


I think (correct me if I'm off on this Noam) the issue is more like the following: two guys at the same really loud Bruckner symphony, or maybe a piano recital, sitting pretty much next to each other, one going DPA4060 > MMA6000 > MiniR82 (24/96), the other MK2S or MK4 > (actives) > LemoSax > Sony D1 (24/96), neither doing Eq or other processing.  Sometimes a listening test prefers one rig to another, but the fatigue factor is lower on the DPA rig.  Is this a function of DPA mics, and if so how do you DPAize your Schoeps recording in post?

Jeff

LOL - yes, that's one way to put it - the DPA's zero fatigue factor is amazing. As I wrote you, I played your recording of a certain very long Bach piece with zero fatigue and I then played Tatiana Nikolayeva’s Goldberg variations on Hyperion. The Hyperion is not a grossly manipulated sound, no big complaints, but the second she hit the piano I felt the weight, the listening fatigue set in. It's an unpleasant physical sensation.

This may turn into a DPA4060 vs. Schoeps MK2S thread, but I just compared our tapes of a certain Mahler symphony, both on DVD-A 96/24, sitting next to each other. I think I got part of the answer, we'll continue this privately, but I noticed several things. Relevant to this discussion is that I don't believe the DPA's and the MK2S have the same FR curve at the bass - I don't know what range in Hz exactly, but it's where the cellos are sitting and actually it even starts with the violas: the MK2S have a fatter bass. The DPA4060 have a thinner bass in comparison, and even the violas sound a little thinner and even shrill. In piano solo the trade off of zero fatigue is worth it; I don't know about orchestral music. I think if you superimpose the DPA4060 FR curve on the MK2S', the DPA4060 should slope down towards the bass compared to the MK2S (I suspect it would start to slow down from pretty high - the violas aren't even "bass.") That may explain the zero fatigue. But I don't know if the MK2S or even the MK4's cause significantly more fatigue. I'm not spending as many hours on my tapes as I do on yours. I was mainly comparing your DPA4060 tapes to (relatively “good”) commercial releases. 90% of commercial releases suck - I just can't listen to them, usually due to listening fatigue (that's in the "good" ones - the rest have reverb, mics placed too close, dynamic compression and other disasters.)

Noam

Offline silence

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2007, 09:20:06 AM »
I don’t know which forum this question belongs to.

I listen almost daily to recordings WiFiJeff makes with his DPA 4060’s> MMA6000>Sonosax MiniR82 and I sometimes compare them to other mics he uses or to my tapes (mk4/mk2S>lemosax>D1) if I happen to attend the same performance. I don’t have consistent preferences – I end up liking one or another setup, depending on the setting. But irrespective of the results of these auditions, when I play the DPA 4060’s tapes just for fun and not for auditioning, I find the sound extremely pleasant and, more significantly, with zero listening fatigue. No other mic has this light, airy, transparent quality.

What is the cause of listening fatigue? What is unique about a mic with less listening fatigue? Is it less emphasis in the mid bass? I have a friend who edits using SF8 – he does something with the 20band Graphic Equalizer in S.F. to get tapes with warm sound and very little listening fatigue (he thinks the explanation some commercial recordings are very tiring because of some form of compression across certain frequencies that gives a  "puffed up" sound.) Can you reduce listening fatigue by playing with the equalizer in your editing software?


Noam

Aside from quality of equipment, bad music,being overly tired and listening frequencies,  listening fatigue sets in more quickly according to how many instruments  are involved at one given time and how much the sound was processed.  A single instrument with minimal processing will give longer listening pleasure than 5 instruments banging away through heavy flltering -  I found that volume also plays a huge part, there is a  "sweet point" to volume where the performance takes on a transparency of its own and the brain can derive great pleasure from it...if the performance is good and you like the piece that is.

BobW

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2007, 10:43:48 PM »
Bad speakers more than anything I know.    8)

bad music?

beat me to it       ;D

Bad music also causes impotence      ;)

Fatigue can be from bad frequency response, incoherence, phase distortions, echoes, and all of those things that we try to correct for in reinforcement and recording

Bad dolby used to give me headaches back in the cassette days
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 10:46:14 PM by UnspunBobSuitpants »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2007, 01:20:47 AM »
I find I cant make any real appraisals of recordings right after the gig - especially at rock shows...I lose my "articulation" frequencies...my ears just can hear the finer points after being exposed to large scale sound reproduction...I can tell - good job/bad job for the most part - but I wont really hear the "musicality" until morning...after some ear rest...showers are good too!
I experience exactly the same thing with the louder amplified concerts, but find listening immediately afterwards to quieter acoustic recordings especially enlightening, both technically and musically.
...listening fatigue sets in more quickly according to how many instruments  are involved at one given time and how much the sound was processed.  A single instrument with minimal processing will give longer listening pleasure than 5 instruments banging away through heavy flltering -  I found that volume also plays a huge part, there is a  "sweet point" to volume where the performance takes on a transparency of its own and the brain can derive great pleasure from it...if the performance is good and you like the piece that is.
QFT
bad music?
... bad frequency response, incoherence, phase distortions, echoes, and all of those things..
Crappy sound is just plain fatiguing.
Quote
Bad dolby used to give me headaches back in the cassette days
;D
and those squealing cassettes, and all those DBX encoded tapes after my DBX deck died, and compressed, zero dynamics radio, and crappy MP3's, and boomy, way bass heavy, overly loud PA's, and airplane noise, and computer whine, and cell phone reception, and amateur violin practice, and any music I don't especially care for.
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2007, 11:16:27 PM »
My ex-wife's voice.  :P
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Offline jmz93

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2007, 08:17:53 PM »
About the Schoeps vs DPA thing, and DPA being less fatiguing, sittng side-by-side, same recording etc. etc. Why not take a 30-second sample of the recording from both sources, make sure the volume level is the same, and then use a modelling EQ like the software one byVoxengo. You could model the EQ curve of one recording, then slap that on the other and visa versa. Not exactly scientific, but it might be interesting to superimpose the DPA curve on the Schoeps recording.


Offline ts

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Re: What causes listening fatigue?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2007, 02:47:34 PM »
Klipsch horns :laugh:

 

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