Topic: Best Portable Recorder for Concert shows

[Rogueleader]

Im sure you guys must get asked this a gazillion times. If so, kindly point me to the thread...

Anyway, here is the deal: I do 2-3 steady gigs a week with my jazz/fusion band here in town in the local clubs/bars.
I needed a new recorder to record the shows, edit the tunes, make CD's, make some money...yadda yadda.
 
Anyway, I wanted to know what the best inexpensive recorder is, that will afford me good CD quality sound?

In a rush just today, I bought the Sony IC Recorder ICD-SX57. It is just a tiny stereo recorder with 256 megs that I got it at Circuit City for $150.00.

I will probably take it back after tonights gig, but I need some advice.
So for all you tapers out there: What do you guys suggest?

I need a good mini digital recorder and maybe some stereo mikes on a stand? Or are the miles overkill?

Please any suggestions will be appreciated!
Thanks alot!
q

[NOLAfishwater]

First you need to give us a price range of what you can afford and then plenty of reccomendations will be given. Good luck in your search.

[Belexes]

Recorder:

Edirol R-09 or another type of flash recorder.

Check the Yardsale thead for some great used gear that is for sale now..I see an R-09...a MT2496, etc...

Some have built-in mics which you can try and use, but if you are pressing shows, try going to the Retail thread and picking up a Church Audio pre-amp/mic package.

You can then get a stand for the mics and then SP does make nice t-bars for the small mics:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category/360/mics

The Sony recorder you picked up is a voice recorder. I don't think it's going to give you the dynamic range you'll want.

Just my 2 cents..

[Rogueleader]

First you need to give us a price range of what you can afford and then plenty of reccomendations will be given. Good luck in your search.

Thanks for the reply. For the recorder.. I guess $200-$350 or so. I really want to capture the live recordings in stereo and press CD's with them, so frequency response is an important issue. Also additional mikes are important, maybe ones I can kinda point in one direction or the other.

I guess the ultimate would be some sorta mixer with 3 or 4 mikes, one for the drummer, one for the guitar, one for the bass etc... and then do a stereo mix.. not too sure if that is possible in a portable set up...

The goal really is to get some good recordings for a mix down to a CD that is going to sound good clear and balanced.

thanks again in advance!
q

[Rogueleader]

Recorder:

Edirol R-09 or another type of flash recorder.

Check the Yardsale thead for some great used gear that is for sale now..I see an R-09...a MT2496, etc...

Some have built-in mics which you can try and use, but if you are pressing shows, try going to the Retail thread and picking up a Church Audio pre-amp/mic package.

You can then get a stand for the mics and then SP does make nice t-bars for the small mics:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category/360/mics

The Sony recorder you picked up is a voice recorder. I don't think it's going to give you the dynamic range you'll want.

Just my 2 cents..

I see the Endirol R-09 seems pretty popular. Is this currently the best on the market for what I am trying to do?
Can you use external Mikes with this? IS Church Audio a brand name? What model mikes do you suggest?

I really want something I can set and forget....and then when I play it back the next day, one instrument is not louder than another... I know that depends on the stage volume etc.. but something I can sorta adjust in Audition or what ever... with out too much hassle

I really appreciate all your suggests, and bear with me, I'm a newbie on this, so I'm slowly learning all the lingo... 

Thanks again for your input.
q

[Robobo1]

Hi,

I'd suggest that if you are looking to produce a commercially-viable recording (and by that I mean you plan on selling it, whatever the market), you should hire a professional to record a night or two of your gigs.  You'll get a MUCH better product and will have options in regards to balance, mixing, etc. (assuming it's multitracked).

A cheap $300 recorder isn't going to do much for you other than let you set up a pair of mics somewhere in the room (out of the way of the diners/bar-goers/dancers/whoever) and hit record.  That's totally fine for your own purposes, but it won't compete and won't be sellable.  You'll also have no control over balance - you seem to hint that you'd like that ability.  This option is wonderful if you just need documentation of your gigs for whatever reason.

Good luck!

[Tim]

where do you live at? In keeping with the poster above, maybe there is a taper in the area who'd record some gigs and help set you up?

[colors]

I am in the same boat as you, being a gigging jazz musician.  I've recording my gigs with a cheap stereo mic for years.  About a year or so ago, I started hosting a weekly jazz jam and made a point to experiment with using external mics and recording to a mini disc.  I really fell in love with 2 Shure SM-57's sitting right on the stage.  One pointed at the bass, on right, one pointed at the guitar, on left.  Drums in middle.  I ran them into an Audio Buddy Preamp before going analog into the MD.  The whole setup costs around $500.  I am using the Edirol R-09 nowadays.  Some people here may freak of the idea of someone selling a pressed disc that has been recorded on a stereo pair of 57's.  For my money, when you have musicians that are very acoustically aware, have great dynamics and can switch gears on the drop of a hat, the music really benefits from not being manipulated after it's been captured.  Find a good balance beforehand, get the mics in a neutral spot, and GO!
   Alan

[illconditioned]

I am in the same boat as you, being a gigging jazz musician.  I've recording my gigs with a cheap stereo mic for years.  About a year or so ago, I started hosting a weekly jazz jam and made a point to experiment with using external mics and recording to a mini disc.  I really fell in love with 2 Shure SM-57's sitting right on the stage.  One pointed at the bass, on right, one pointed at the guitar, on left.  Drums in middle.  I ran them into an Audio Buddy Preamp before going analog into the MD.  The whole setup costs around $500.  I am using the Edirol R-09 nowadays.  Some people here may freak of the idea of someone selling a pressed disc that has been recorded on a stereo pair of 57's.  For my money, when you have musicians that are very acoustically aware, have great dynamics and can switch gears on the drop of a hat, the music really benefits from not being manipulated after it's been captured.  Find a good balance beforehand, get the mics in a neutral spot, and GO!
   Alan

Excellent advice.  Get good sound in the room (or on stage) and you're almost done.  I have not tried the 57's (or any dynamic mic, for that matter), but they should sound OK.  I bet if you got a set of inexpensive to mid-range condensers, and put them in the exact same place as the dynamics you'd have a killer recording!  Try something like Studio Projects C4.  A great starter mic, and available for approx $200 used (see the Yardsale on this site).

If you've doing regular gigs at the same place, you could find the sweet spot in the room, and perhaps hang/clamp the mics there.  I had a set of Studio Projects C4s hanging from the ceiling at a local bar for more than a year.  Some great recordings were made!

 Richard

[Chuck]

I agree with illconditioned about the Studio Projects C-4's. A used pair will not cost much more than a couple SM57's and will make a noticably better sounding recording. I also like the Church STC-11's. If you go that route, you won't need phantom power either.

[colors]

Just to clarify, I know that 57s are dynamics mics, and logically thinking, probably not anyone's first choice.  I actually had a choice between a few different condensers pairs, including a pair of ATM33a's.  I tried them all and liked the sound of the dynamics best for what we were doing.  Such and amazing warm sound.  I will admit for different rooms and ensembles, a condenser pair is probably the best route though.

[illconditioned]

Just to clarify, I know that 57s are dynamics mics, and logically thinking, probably not anyone's first choice.  I actually had a choice between a few different condensers pairs, including a pair of ATM33a's.  I tried them all and liked the sound of the dynamics best for what we were doing.  Such and amazing warm sound.  I will admit for different rooms and ensembles, a condenser pair is probably the best route though.

I don't think ATM33a are that good.  Try a condensor pair, a little better one, and see what you think.  The lowest I would go is the Studio Projects C4, $200 used.  If you've got money, get Beyerdynamic MC930set (stereo pair) for approx. $800 street.  Perhaps you can borrow (or rent) a pair to try out.  Then you will know if you want to buy them.

  Richard

[Belexes]

I just used the SP C4's I got from the YS for the first time this weekend and am very pleased with the results.  A lot of performance for not a lot of $.

[Javier Cinakowski]

If you don't have vocals, boundry mics are the way to go for Jazz.   Get two boundry mics (perhaps the Audio Technica -U851R)  and a Marantz PMD660.

This way you can place the mics unobtrusivly, on-stage, in any possition you desire.  With the package I described below you dont need a mic stand or cables....

2- U851R = $300
1- Marantz PMD660 = $425
 

[dallman]

Just to clarify, I know that 57s are dynamics mics, and logically thinking, probably not anyone's first choice.  I actually had a choice between a few different condensers pairs, including a pair of ATM33a's.  I tried them all and liked the sound of the dynamics best for what we were doing.  Such and amazing warm sound.  I will admit for different rooms and ensembles, a condenser pair is probably the best route though.

I don't think ATM33a are that good.  Try a condensor pair, a little better one, and see what you think.  The lowest I would go is the Studio Projects C4, $200 used.  If you've got money, get Beyerdynamic MC930set (stereo pair) for approx. $800 street.  Perhaps you can borrow (or rent) a pair to try out.  Then you will know if you want to buy them.

  Richard

Not yet know but really well priced and (perhaps) barely in production are the Berliner CM 33's. Anyone out there who has heard what they can do chime in. For under $500 for a pair, it is a great deal.
http://www.berlinerusa.com/index-3.html
http://www.vintagesonics.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=berliner+cm+33

[colors]

just inquired about some c4's.  they look nice.  Also I have been looking at boundary mics .  How are the crowns?

[NOLAfishwater]

If you don't have vocals, boundry mics are the way to go for Jazz.   Get two boundry mics (perhaps the Audio Technica -U851R)  and a Marantz PMD660.

This way you can place the mics unobtrusivly, on-stage, in any possition you desire.  With the package I described below you dont need a mic stand or cables....

2- U851R = $300
1- Marantz PMD660 = $425
 

Agreed. It is super easy to use but you have to get it modified for it to sound good. There are a couple of them on the yard sale right now.

[Javier Cinakowski]

crowns are really good boundry (PZM) mics.  Audio Technica is another good one...

IMO
boundry mics->PMD 600,

doesn't get any easier than that.


Give a good look at the Audio Technica U851R.  The have interchangable capsules with omni, card and hyper.  They use the same capsules as the well respected AT853 mics...

[illconditioned]

crowns are really good boundry (PZM) mics.  Audio Technica is another good one...

IMO
boundry mics->PMD 600,

doesn't get any easier than that.


Give a good look at the Audio Technica U851R.  The have interchangable capsules with omni, card and hyper.  They use the same capsules as the well respected AT853 mics...

I would recommend "standard" mics.  Even AT853, before the boundary.  You can get good sound from these, but it is a little more tricky.  You never know how they will sound... unless you put your ear way down on the ground and listen, I suppose...

Since you already know where the "sweet spot" is, just get a good set of condensers and go from there...

  Richard

[Nick's Picks]

same.

now, I dont know if it will do the trick, but perhaps one of the ZOOM recorders, or the upcoming Sony PCM-D50 would be the total solution for you.

read up.
have fun!
zoom h4
zoom h2
sony pcm-d50

but if you're going condensers, you need phantom power in the preamp/recorder you will be using.
A lot more than you want to spend, but an Edirol R4 coupled with a pair of SP C4 condensers, and you'd be "future proof", for your endeavors.
you might be able to put that together for a grand

[Arni99]

for stealth-recording MY best recorder(best internal preamp on line-in) is the sony mz-rh1 hi-md recorder.
i had 2 edirol r09(got faulty- mic input... 2 times), iriver h120, zoom h2(had only 1 channel on line-in...).

my rh1 hi-md recorder survived them all and pulled the best sounding recordings.

am sure the new sony pcm-d50 will be top notch too, without the 94min55seconds PCM WAV limit of HI-MD and the sonic-stage transfer dilemma(which I don´t mind at all).

[attheshow]

Yeah, the MZ-RH1 is sweet. It's so small, light, and sounds so good. I keep talking myself out of "upgrading". If only HiMD discs could store 2 meg instead on one... then it would be perfect.

And if you're on Mac the HiMD transfer software on Mac OSX is great!

[Nick's Picks]

for some reason...all MD preamps pretty much smoke all of our "high end" hand held recorders.
always have.

that is why even the older ATRAC MDs still pulled great recordings w/a pair of cheap mics running right into them.


that said..
I think either the zoom H2 or the upcoming Sony ...placed "in the sweet spot" or on stage / stage lip, will give you what you need and do it with the least amount of hassle.  Though nobody has heard one, i'm guessing the sony will be the best sounding unit of the pack.
the Zoom offers various recording options that the sony will not.
the sony will have better mics.
the zoom might be more flexible.

you'll have to research and then weigh your options, but I do think this is the way to go for you.

[Jammin72]

The Fostex FR2LE sounds damn good for a stock box.  Going rate on ebay is about $450 shipped, no need for a mod even for very loud recordings, onboard phantom power, and a rock solid file system that seems to be usable with most flash memory cards. It's line in should be able to take the output from virtually any SBD without worry, something the more consumer based products may take issue with. Later you can get it moded if you so desire, upgrade mics or even get a small mixer to mix the sub group outs from your board with your audience mics.

A really great choice IMO for what you're doing.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I would recommend "standard" mics.  Even AT853, before the boundary.  You can get good sound from these, but it is a little more tricky.  You never know how they will sound... unless you put your ear way down on the ground and listen, I suppose...

Since you already know where the "sweet spot" is, just get a good set of condensers and go from there...

  Richard

I disagree.  I find it easier to pull a good recording with a pair of boundary’s than a typical stereo pair. (on-stage especially)  The boundary eliminates a good bit of reverberant reflections taking one variable out of the equation.  How often has a recording you made with a typical stereo pair sound the same as it did at the show?  The mics capture a different sound and the same thing for boundary mic.  Respectfully, I don't see your point.  Another bonus with boundary mics is placement can be made anywhere on stage, unobtrusively. 

Now, I wouldn't use a boundary away from the stage unless there was some huge wall located perfectly in the sweet spot...

Here are 2 samples of the same band.  The first is from a pair of AT853's in ortf/stage-lip.  The second is a pair of U851R boundary’s placed 8' apart on stage.  Now, both recordings are acceptable, perhaps the 853 better, however the boundary is a much simpler and unobtrusive solution for a musician trying to record himself.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/MP3files/PRODUCTS/sp-cmc-8ls.mp3    (at943/U853c->CA9100->Oade SBM-1->iRiver)
http://www.treespine.com/rig/rig_files/grimace2007-10-29s105.flac            (U851R->Oade PMD660)

[Krispy D]

If you don't have vocals, boundry mics are the way to go for Jazz.   Get two boundry mics (perhaps the Audio Technica -U851R)  and a Marantz PMD660.

This way you can place the mics unobtrusivly, on-stage, in any possition you desire.  With the package I described below you dont need a mic stand or cables....

2- U851R = $300
1- Marantz PMD660 = $425
 

Ding Ding Ding!  that's what I was gonna say.  (Fred must be really smart!    )

[illconditioned]

for some reason...all MD preamps pretty much smoke all of our "high end" hand held recorders.
always have.

that is why even the older ATRAC MDs still pulled great recordings w/a pair of cheap mics running right into them.

I agree.  MD seem to work great for quiet recordings and/or low output mics.  The self-noise is very low.  For louder stuff I have a slight preference for the R09 preamp, but the MD preamps are really quite good.  And certainly better than using anything like NJB3 or iRiver line input.

  Richard

[kuuan]

many good advices given, maybe the R09 and some fitting Mics to be found in the yardsale? Wish you good luck Rogueleader, and see, the best hint could be this one:

where do you live at? In keeping with the poster above, maybe there is a taper in the area who'd record some gigs and help set you up?

Do get your own gear and record, but you just may have an experienced taper around who has fun trying to do his best and from whom you can learn a lot, and chances that are you'll have much better recordings. You said you want to make money, well, maybe the taper wanted too, but maybe not, having fun.

best luck,
kuuan

[Ozpeter]

If only HiMD discs could store 2 meg instead on one... then it would be perfect.

You get seven hours of 256kbps on one Hi-MD disc and that's convertible to wave on download - chances of being able to hear the difference between that and "original' wave format are slim (heh, at risk of starting a long debate!).

The H2's four mics recorded onto separate stereo tracks do give you a great deal of options when mixing them down afterwards, and they enable you to get a very spacious sound if you want - for me, a simple crossed pair of cardioids always sounds kind of flat.

[fmaderjr]

I couldn't agree more with with Ozpeter. I do most of my MZ-RH1 recordings at 256 (Hi SP) because I never need to change the disk. The recordings sound fabulous and nothing is better for stealth. I keep the machine in my shirt pocket and can easily see and change levels if necessary. I cut a hole in the shirt pocket for the mic cable and hide the mics in my hat. Nobody can ever tell I'm recording. I usually go line in with the tiny Church audio battery box also in my shirt pocket, but the mic preamps are supposed to be quite good as well. I would guess that the MZ-RH1 at 256 (let alone wave) will make better sounding recordings than either of the ZOOMs at 24/44.1 or higher. From what I've read on the Zoom forum, they seem to have a lot of limitations. 

[Javier Cinakowski]

I would guess that the MZ-RH1 at 256 (let alone wave) will make better sounding recordings than either of the ZOOMs at 24/44.1 or higher.

Unfortunatly, I agree with you.  Just remember that audio compression causes cancer...

[Ozpeter]

I can't find anything wrong with the H2 line in, in tests, but the mic input is insensitive or noisy or just fussy.  The built in mics work very well - which of course the RH-1 does not have.  So really they are quite different animals - different tools for different jobs.  I'm glad to have both.

[Mr. Blint]

D5