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Author Topic: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects  (Read 1829 times)

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2024, 02:15:41 PM »

I would start very much where Gutbucket suggests and record with your H4N at the front of the stage pointed at the band (maybe from down low behind the vocal monitor angles up to avoid getting them since you'll have vocals in your sbd feed) and send the sbd mix from the FOH mix position (either through an aux send or control room send not sure on that board) to your onstage location through the snake returns.

The idea with this approach is to get complimentary recordings - clarity and detail from the sbd source and room sound from the mic source. The mics will fill in things like guitar amps and drums that are loud onstage but not well represented in the board mix and give some roominess to things that are primarily only represented in the board source like vocals, keyboards and snare/kick. This kinda depends on the size of the venue, if some instruments are DI or mic'd up cabinets, etc... usually smaller venue = less things that are loud onstage being sent to FOH since you can hear them fine in the audience already.

Mixing the two sources is really simple in a free program like Audacity. There's a wealth of threads here about how to accomplish that specific task.

If this works out for you and you want to upgrade at that point you could get a multichannel recorder like one of the Tascam DR series for a couple hundred bucks and a decent pair of condenser mics for a couple hundred. You don't have to spend a bunch to get solid recordings in this scenario. You are kinda in the cat bird's seat since you have access to your own sbd and where to place your mics. If you sprang for a Zoom F6 and a pair of Line Audio CM3 mics you could be making killer recordings for around $800 if you buy used and have a lot of flexibility in your approach.
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Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2024, 09:01:59 AM »
Okay, I will have to read and study all of the responses in more detail. Um...eventually. Thanks for all the information, but you guys are reminding me why I really need to stay in my own lane here. You guys are incredibly knowledgeable, but I'm starting to realize that you might as well try and teach a monkey calculus than trying to get all this information into my head.

Maybe I'm not good at communicating, but you guys are waaaaaaaay above my head. I am a performer. I play and sing. I'm not a taper. Really, I have no functional way of evaluating mic position in a venue, and no desire or intention of even trying. I just want to put an ambient recorder in whatever position is most convenient and out of the way to get a decent (by my standards, obviously not all of yours) sounding recording.

I literally am only looking for something that will sound better than all my friends with their iPhones recording one another performing, and marginally better than my Q8.

I don't have the RAM for all of this information. I am not a sound man, professional taper, or even an amateur taper. I'm not even a recording hobbyist.

I think for now, I am just going to stick with the stock Q8, and on nights that I get really ambitious, I will also stick my $200.00 Panasonic camcorder next to it, so I can discard the ZOOM video, and just use the audio from the Q8. Which is pretty much what I have been doing for several years. It works for me. I just wanted something a little better. I don't think I need the H4N because my understanding is that the Q8 being newer tech has better audio. I can also use external mics on both units.


By the way, what the hell is with the verification in trying to post in this forum? Yet another indication that I am way out of my depth here! This is not hyperbole when I say that it takes me over 20 minutes to get past all the questions, not to mention I can almost never read the captcha, AND the the questions keep changing. This is why I don't respond to my own thread. This is insane! I have been using message forums for over 2 decades, and I have literally never seen anything like this. I am sure this post will piss a lot of you off, but this I am on 25 minutes trying to submit this post. I timed it! So, yeah, thanks for all the information, but I think I'm done here. I can't even edit my own posts without hitting a huge time wall. Over and over again, I keep getting sent back to either question(s) I answered wrong, or the Captcha I can't read.


Offline capnhook

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2024, 09:46:14 AM »


Good luck man, make great tapes  :bigsmile:
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2024, 10:05:20 AM »
Let's make it simple.

Put the recorder you already have wherever it sounds best.  Make more effort to do that and you'll make better recordings.  If not willing to do that, upgrading the recording equipment won't help much.

You would not even try to make a video from a position from which you were unable to see the stage.  Similary, you will not be able to make a good sounding recording from a position that does not sound good.

You are a musician. Musicians are natural listeners.  Walk around the room while your band is playing or some other band is playing, listen and determine where it sounds best in the room. Figure out a way to put the recorder there if you can.  If there are only a few places you might reasonably put the recorder, go to each one and listen.  Close your eyes when you do this and rely only on what you are hearing, rather than what you see.  Setup the recorder in whatever place sounds best that is practical to do so.  While setting up, listen again with eyes closed to determine how to best orient the built-in mics of recorder or your microphone pair.  Point the machine or mics at the apparent acoustic center of the sound source, rather than at visually at the band.  Ignore what you see and rely on what you hear.  You may not end up pointing the recorder toward the center of the the band at all, you may end up pointing it at the closest PA speaker, or somewhere else.

If you do nothing more than what is described above rather than simply choosing whatever position is most convenient and out of the way, you will make recordings that sound better than your friends with iPhones.. unless they happen to be standing wherever it actually sounds best.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 10:08:22 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2024, 10:48:44 AM »
Gutbucket, every single thing you said is fair. In fact, everything everyone has said so far is also perfectly reasonable.

I guess what that tells me is, since I have zero intention of trying to find an optimal listening spot, (and in fact, more often than not, I am unable to, since I am playing/singing most of my gigs from 1st song to last) that I should just save my money, and use what I have been using for over a decade, as I won't see any improvement with investing in gear. I assumed a new recorder and/or possibly better mics would help, but apparently, I don't need any of that.

(okay, I was able to make this post after only 1 attempt...so that's something, I suppose  :cheers:)

« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 10:54:15 AM by ChiroVette »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2024, 11:01:47 AM »
That conclusion is sound.

Except that finding a decent sounding spot isn't difficult.  You probably play the same places semi regularly.  Walk around and listen with this mindset while some other band is playing, and remember where the good spots are for next time. 

Simple, free, and the most effective thing you can do.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2024, 11:49:07 AM »
One more question that I haven't seen answered yet: Where are you located? The simplest solution might be to see if someone here is local to you and would be willing to come to one of your shows and experiment with recording options, then share that knowledge with you.

Offline AbbyTaper

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2024, 10:37:29 PM »
The simplest solution might be to see if someone here is local to you and would be willing to come to one of your shows and experiment with recording options, then share that knowledge with you.

There is probably the best advice so far!

Just about everyone gave great advice, but I can certainly see how it would have been overwhelming.   Hopefully you find a solution that works for you.

Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2024, 11:20:35 PM »
I agree that all of the advice has been really good so far. I also think that this forum is designed for a way higher level taper than I am. As for gigs, that would have been an easier thing to provide before Covid, but I have just been gearing up again to play live. Since the whole lockdown thing, I have mostly been using backing tracks, and playing summer gigs with an old Grateful Dead cover band. I am based in NY City, but most of the gigs I will be playing in the summer months are out in Suffolk/Nassau Long Island.

Here is my placement problem, and why I brought up the backing tracks: I have been having private parties on the main floor of my house in the cooler months, where outside isn't an option, for obvious reasons. I live in the apartment upstairs, but rather than renting it out, and moving down to the main floor, I decided not to deal with tenants, and I cleared out the main floor for entertaining and for indoor parties, with the smaller version of my PA. Problem with that is placement is a non issue. I have friends that come and perform, and the PA is set up in the front room, blocking the front door. In this setup, there is literally only one place I can record from, which is probably about 15 feet in front of me, against the wall of the living room, and guests are seated, standing in front of that. I have no play where I can set any recording device there, without people tripping all over the recorders.

I also have parties outside in the backyard, and I have a little more play as to where I can record from, but not much, because it's a Brooklyn house, and it's not like I have acres and acres to set up recording, and if I'm not careful, my guests will be tripping all over the recording gear.

I would imagine in the outdoor summer gigs coming up, at least one is in Lindenhurst, I will have more options where to set gear up, but even that is iffy, because I almost always set up by the sound man, since there is a sound man for these larger gigs; and generally he watches my recording gear, and keeps it relatively safe while I play.

I suppose if I start playing in full bands, and not backing tracks (lol what I call Guitarioke) then I will be playing in venues where recording placement would be more variable, but again, bars are small, and I don't want people tripping over and walking all over the recording gear.

Look, if I were a taper, like I used to see all the time at Dead shows, then I can sit on my gear, and keep people away, like I see tapers doing all the time. But in bars, while I am on stage, I simply cannot be watching all my cameras and audio recorders. I really have to set and forget it, and in most of the places I have played with various bar bands, and ones I would play in the coming months, there is generally one kind of out of the way spot to set up, like in one place, behind a pool table, and that's pretty much that. I cannot think of any venues that my little cover band(s) might play any time soon where I could even find proper placement, without me sitting/standing on top of my gear to make sure people aren't dancing/bumping into the stuff.

I really can't imagine finding places in small NY City or Long Island bars that hire me where the "audio is optimal". More often than not, I am damned lucky to find ONE PLACE I can set up the gear that hopefully won't see it jostled while I have to be on stage concentrating on singing, the jams, leading the band musically, and playing.

This is kind of why unless I start getting much better gigs, I pretty much am lucky to find one spot where I can actually set it up in relative safety. So even assuming I can find optimal sonic places to set up, without someone pretty much standing/sitting guard over my recording gear, I can't see how it would work. Unless, by sheer coincidence and an abundance of luck, the one and only place I can set up my recording gear in safety just happens to be in a good aural location.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 11:26:29 PM by ChiroVette »

Offline roffels

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2024, 08:36:55 PM »
That conclusion is sound.

Except that finding a decent sounding spot isn't difficult.  You probably play the same places semi regularly.  Walk around and listen with this mindset while some other band is playing, and remember where the good spots are for next time. 

Simple, free, and the most effective thing you can do.

Or just ask the sound engineer.

Offline roffels

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2024, 08:41:36 PM »
I agree that all of the advice has been really good so far. I also think that this forum is designed for a way higher level taper than I am.

I don't know if I agree with that. It's a mix of gear-heads and some folks that clip little mics into their hat or onto their glasses and want to capture a show. Folks are just trying to answer your questions with the knowledge they have.

Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2024, 09:52:34 AM »
Roffels I appreciate all of the answers. When I am playing in the same places over and over again, finding the best sonic spaces may be more feasible, if there are other bands playing that night, which there usually aren't. To reiterate, though, most of my gigs are in small places where there is generally only one place to record my video. Whether that is the "best sonic space" or not, I have no clue, but it is usually the only place in a bar where I can actually set up. Outdoor gigs that have a sound man are also limiting, because there is no taper section like a Dead show. If the soundman sets up in location A, I have to put my gear in location A to prevent audience members from bumping into it, since I cannot keep an eye on the gear from stage, and the sound man has other things to concern himself with than watching my recording gear unless it is right on top of his mixer.

So just to reiterate then, there is no need to buy better recording equipment since I really have no intention of trying to suss out better sonic spaces to place my recorder, and I should just stick with my stock Zoom Q8, since better mics, mic pre-amps, and a better recorder are irrelevant, right?

On the plus side, you guys have saved me some money, since I don't need new recording gear. My life just got a lot simpler. I can't tell you how many times I have spent money I didn't need to, so this is actually sort of good news. :)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 09:54:27 AM by ChiroVette »

Offline capnhook

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2024, 10:02:12 AM »


On the plus side, you guys have saved me some money, since I don't need new recording gear. My life just got a lot simpler. I can't tell you how many times I have spent money I didn't need to, so this is actually sort of good news. :)


And it took merely two weeks for you to come to your conclusion  :cheers: :clapping: :coolguy:


Play on man, and make great tapes
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"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline ChiroVette

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2024, 05:13:15 PM »
And it took merely two weeks for you to come to your conclusion  :cheers: :clapping: :coolguy:

No, I understood what you guys were saying long ago. I just stuck around and bumped this thread to see if anyone else, perhaps with a different opinion wanted to chime in. My last post was just triple checking that this is actually the advice you were giving. Anyway, no biggie. I like to talk to people, and online is no different. Thanks for the input. I wasn't disagreeing with anyone in this thread, just surprised at the advice. Enough so, to ping this thread a few extra times.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Recording My Own Band & Other Projects
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2024, 11:25:18 AM »
The simplest solution might be to see if someone here is local to you and would be willing to come to one of your shows and experiment with recording options, then share that knowledge with you.

There is probably the best advice so far!

Agreed. That's the answer!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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