Topic: Why a preamp?

[nangillala]

Hi,
I'm a total noob regarding mobile recording, but have a bit of knowledge when it comes to "regular recording" (homestudio band recording).

I want to buy a Sony PCM M10 and am looking for some nice, small Mics to complement it.
The purpose will be stealth recording on concerts. I have some friends in bands which I want to tape, but don't want all the people to ask something when they see the mics,... you know this. It is mainly Rock, Alternative, Indie, so pretty loud shows in venues of about 500 people.

I think I want to spend around 150$ (I'm from Germany, so roughly 120€) on Mics and the Church Mics seem to be very popular here, plus I heard some very good recordings with those. What I don't understand: Why would I need a (Church e.g.) preamp when the Sony has the Mic-In. I would understand it if the voltage was too low or something, but it seems to work (regarding to some posts here) without the pre. On the other hand it does not seem to be a question of sound solely (like: what is better? A Neve or a SSL pre?).

I read the guides, beginners section, etc. but can't find any info on this.

[page]

In regards to the Chuch mics and M10 specifically. While Chris Church's mics do work on standard PIP, they function better when they are fed close to 9v. Many handheld units don't send 9v as Plug In Power (or really even close to it). Second, some handheld units (but smaller then the former pool) introduce noise when using the mic-in gain, so an outboard pre-amp is favorable in that instance. All of this is subject to the laws of deminishing returns, but they are reasons that folks choose that route.

Some research on the mic-in noise of the M10 would yeild whether a pre-amp is needed, or just a battery box to power the mics, also, finding the actual PIP voltage would tell whether either is potentially needed. Of course, personal tollerences play a part in this as well.

edit: here's a thread that might be of interest.

[acidjack]

what page said is right. However, note the distinction:  You need 9v of power - but that doesn't necessarily have to come from a preamp. It can also from a cheap battery box.  If you record loud rock using an M10, you don't need a preamp, but you do need a battery box.

Hi,
I'm a total noob regarding mobile recording, but have a bit of knowledge when it comes to "regular recording" (homestudio band recording).

I want to buy a Sony PCM M10 and am looking for some nice, small Mics to complement it.
The purpose will be stealth recording on concerts. I have some friends in bands which I want to tape, but don't want all the people to ask something when they see the mics,... you know this. It is mainly Rock, Alternative, Indie, so pretty loud shows in venues of about 500 people.

I think I want to spend around 150$ (I'm from Germany, so roughly 120€) on Mics and the Church Mics seem to be very popular here, plus I heard some very good recordings with those. What I don't understand: Why would I need a (Church e.g.) preamp when the Sony has the Mic-In. I would understand it if the voltage was too low or something, but it seems to work (regarding to some posts here) without the pre. On the other hand it does not seem to be a question of sound solely (like: what is better? A Neve or a SSL pre?).

I read the guides, beginners section, etc. but can't find any info on this.

[SmokinJoe]

Generally speaking a preamp does 2 things:
A) provides power to the mics
B) provides gain which is probably "cleaner" (less noisy/hissy) than what's built into a recorder.
C) change the "flavor" of the recording a little.

the power for the mics can come from (1) a preamp, (2) a battery box, or (3) the recorder.  In most cases using the recorder will provide 3-5V of power for the mics, which is OK in a coffeehouse, but not at a rock concert, and the mics will "brickwall" or distort at loud volumes.  For loud stuff, you need a preamp or a battery box which provides more like 9V as page and others suggested.   Battery boxes are cheaper... maybe $50, and preamps are more expensive $100-$200.

If you are recording a solo acoustic James Taylor "Story tellers" type act in a quiet coffee house setting, you need extra gain that a preamp offers.  If you are recording Van Halen rock concerts, you don't need the extra gain, and a battery box is cheaper.  As far as preamp "Flavor" goes... I suggest you don't worry about that right now.

For years, one of the standard stealth setups were "small mics > battery box > line in" to a DAT or Minidisk recorder.  You can probably run small mics > battery box > line in to an M10 just fine.  If you find you need a little more gain, running Mics > battery box > "mic in" to the M10 is fine.  Keep in mind that a lot of people around here argue about minute details... my guess is that any tiny bit of hiss you get will be completely buried by crowd noise... you'll never hear it unless you are recording an orchestra with a quiet crowd.

There is frequently some used gear in the "Yard sale", from users in Europe too.  Buying from them avoids a lot of delays and import fees.

[nangillala]

Thanks to everyone.
You made this a lot clearer to me.
It was mentioned in another thread, that the Sony provides around 2.5V of PIP. So I guess I would be fine with a battery box.

And thank you, SmokinJoe for pointing out the (non-)importance of the quality of the components. I guess it's always the same on forums and it's very nice of you to mention this when talking to a newbie like me
I will start semi-cheap - and let's see: If I'm really into taping I think I'll upgrade later on, as this is always an option.

[MSTaper]

Hey, if you're happy with the results, you're set! 

There's always room to upgrade!

MSTaper

[magmazing]

New guy joining this conversation...  So I don't need a preamp if I'm using Church Audio (or Core-Sound) mics if I'm at say a major festival like Coachella/Sasquatch/Lollapalooza? I just need battery box with the mics when I used them in conjunction with my Edirol R-09HR?

I just got my R-09HR a few months ago and am looking into external gear for it now. I was all set to get some Core-Sound Stealthy Cardioids because I prefer more directional mics because it cuts down on crowd noise and then I discovered this place and the glowing reviews for Church Audio and now I'm debating where to spend my money.

My recording is mainly at outdoor festivals, arena concerts and some club shows. You can see what I do at my YouTube channel http://www.youtube.com/magmazing
For the most part the mics I buy will be used with the R-09HR at indoor venues that I can't get my full on camcorder/Rode videomic into and as a backup audio record for my outdoor shooting.

And why can't I find CA-14s that everyone talks about? They're not listed at Church Audio's website or Ebay page.  All I see are the CA-11's, CA-10s, and CAFS.

[acidjack]

^^ The Coresound Stealthy Cardiods are not very good mics, at any price.  I've owed them, and other Coresound products (including my current Coresound DPA 4061s, and my trusty set of Coresound binaurals which worked as well 15 years on when I sold them as they did the day I bought them), and while I don't have anything bad to say about their other products I've owned, those mics specifically I'd stay away from.  They have a very unpleasant sound to me, and generally weak performance on the high and low end.

The Church product, or the cardiod offerings from Sound Professionals, are better. And they are cardiod mics.  Assuming you stealth, you probably want a smaller model like the CA-11 versus the larger CA-14, though the -14 sounds better.  From sound professionals, the SP-CMC-8 is the smaller set; the SP-CMC-4 sounds better but again is a bit larger.

And no, with the R-09HR, which has a decent preamp in it, I don't think you need a preamp for very loud rock shows.  Will it "improve" the sound to use one?  Well, probably, but for a loud show, probably not appreciably.  If you were recording quiet acoustic music, jazz or something else that didn't rely on giant amplified PAs, I'd say something different.

[guysonic]

I just updated my post on the previously referenced page to better cover issues and suggestions discussed in this thread.   Revisit: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137625.0

[nangillala]

And why can't I find CA-14s that everyone talks about? They're not listed at Church Audio's website or Ebay page.  All I see are the CA-11's, CA-10s, and CAFS.

You can find them here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136212.0 (there are also pictures in the thread later on)

[disco]

New guy joining this conversation...  So I don't need a preamp if I'm using Church Audio (or Core-Sound) mics if I'm at say a major festival like Coachella/Sasquatch/Lollapalooza? I just need battery box with the mics when I used them in conjunction with my Edirol R-09HR?

I just got my R-09HR a few months ago and am looking into external gear for it now. I was all set to get some Core-Sound Stealthy Cardioids because I prefer more directional mics because it cuts down on crowd noise and then I discovered this place and the glowing reviews for Church Audio and now I'm debating where to spend my money.

My recording is mainly at outdoor festivals, arena concerts and some club shows. You can see what I do at my YouTube channel http://www.youtube.com/magmazing
For the most part the mics I buy will be used with the R-09HR at indoor venues that I can't get my full on camcorder/Rode videomic into and as a backup audio record for my outdoor shooting.

And why can't I find CA-14s that everyone talks about? They're not listed at Church Audio's website or Ebay page.  All I see are the CA-11's, CA-10s, and CAFS.

I would say that you would want a preamp, especially for outdoor stuff. I had a preamp issue (dropped it, didn't work for a bit, now working; CA-9100) at my last taping gig and just pulled the preamp out of the chain as it was giving me a dead channel. So I taped the first half of the show with my normal setup, had a mishap at setbreak, and ran set 2 sans preamp with the in-board pre maxed out. As mentioned above, the amount of hiss that yeilded (from using the max of the M10's pre vs. independent preamp) from running without the preamp was pretty rough. Beyond that what felt like a loud sound inside the venue barely picked up in the mics. I could see this based on the levels my recorder was displaying but wanted to see how it would turn out. It was crap, the sound was ok, but the hiss was pretty prominent and when I boosted the volume the hiss just became more pronounced. Mind you this was in a theater with a nice sound mix/levels, not at an outdoor show where wind becomes involved. Glad I had a board patch running as well 

[adrianf74]

I would say that you would want a preamp, especially for outdoor stuff.

+1.  I've recorded about 20 shows this summer with both just a battery box (CA-UBB) or a pre-amp (ST-9100) and I would agree with Disco that you'll want the pre-amp for outdoor shows.

I'm using the older Edirol R09 at "unity" (input level 13) and have found that the battery box is often not enough outdoors.  For one show I did outside, I had my deck maxed out at input level 30 and was still only hitting about -8 at the loudest peaks.  If I had used the pre-amp, I likely would have come close to, but not maxed out the pre-amp.  It's also easier to just a pot level on the fly than to unlock, adjust and then re-lock a recorder - less of a chance of having a "butterfingers" situation.

Even in indoor environments, the pre-amp can be a blessing.  I've basically learned to live with bringing the pre-amp to every show unless it's a super 007 situation and I can't afford to bring my CA-14's.  In that case, I'm bringing the UBB and my CAFS and that's that.  I mainly tape rock shows as well.  I just recorded another "free" outdoor show this past Saturday and nearly maxed out the pre-amp (I had about -6dB headroom) but it was nothing I couldn't "fix in post."

[aaronji]

I would say that you would want a preamp, especially for outdoor stuff. I had a preamp issue (dropped it, didn't work for a bit, now working; CA-9100) at my last taping gig and just pulled the preamp out of the chain as it was giving me a dead channel. So I taped the first half of the show with my normal setup, had a mishap at setbreak, and ran set 2 sans preamp with the in-board pre maxed out. As mentioned above, the amount of hiss that yeilded (from using the max of the M10's pre vs. independent preamp) from running without the preamp was pretty rough. Beyond that what felt like a loud sound inside the venue barely picked up in the mics. I could see this based on the levels my recorder was displaying but wanted to see how it would turn out. It was crap, the sound was ok, but the hiss was pretty prominent and when I boosted the volume the hiss just became more pronounced. Mind you this was in a theater with a nice sound mix/levels, not at an outdoor show where wind becomes involved. Glad I had a board patch running as well 

In what configuration were you running the M10?  I am curious because, given the difference in sensitivities between the mic- and line-ins (even after factoring in the gain from the 9100 and setting the mic sensitivity to "low"), it shouldn't be a problem to get good levels...

[disco]

I would say that you would want a preamp, especially for outdoor stuff. I had a preamp issue (dropped it, didn't work for a bit, now working; CA-9100) at my last taping gig and just pulled the preamp out of the chain as it was giving me a dead channel. So I taped the first half of the show with my normal setup, had a mishap at setbreak, and ran set 2 sans preamp with the in-board pre maxed out. As mentioned above, the amount of hiss that yeilded (from using the max of the M10's pre vs. independent preamp) from running without the preamp was pretty rough. Beyond that what felt like a loud sound inside the venue barely picked up in the mics. I could see this based on the levels my recorder was displaying but wanted to see how it would turn out. It was crap, the sound was ok, but the hiss was pretty prominent and when I boosted the volume the hiss just became more pronounced. Mind you this was in a theater with a nice sound mix/levels, not at an outdoor show where wind becomes involved. Glad I had a board patch running as well 

In what configuration were you running the M10?  I am curious because, given the difference in sensitivities between the mic- and line-ins (even after factoring in the gain from the 9100 and setting the mic sensitivity to "low"), it shouldn't be a problem to get good levels...

things were fine with my CA14>CA9100>m10, it's when I pulled the pre out of the chain (dropped it at setbreak, only was giving me one channel) that I had an issue getting a solid level. I was only commenting on that I had been able to use the CA14>m10 on stage with no issues, but using it on stand mounted mics 50' back was not effective.

[aaronji]

^^^So you were going mic-in with plug-in power after you dropped the pre?  High or low sensitivity on the recorder?  Or did you have a back-up battery box going line-in (or mic-in)?