Topic: A friend wants to get into taping (another friend, not the last one).

[justink]

he asked me about the Zoom H4 as a standalone all in one to begin with.  I told him he's better off with some external mics like what Chris Church produces and maybe a Sony M10.

i haven't had to shop around for new gear in a while so, i don't really know what's up.  but what's a solid deck that he can grow from? 

maybe something like church mics > whatever p48 naint box > M10?

[adrianf74]

he asked me about the Zoom H4 as a standalone all in one to begin with.  I told him he's better off with some external mics like what Chris Church produces and maybe a Sony M10.

i haven't had to shop around for new gear in a while so, i don't really know what's up.  but what's a solid deck that he can grow from? 

maybe something like church mics > whatever p48 naint box > M10?

Hard to say for certain the best deck but a popular choice around here is the M10.  I've had a couple of "freak" incidents with mine of late but other than that it's been pretty bulletproof compared to my old R09.

Church mics (and most other miniature mics) are terminated in a 1/8" connector.  I don't see the absolute need for a preamp (be it a CA or Naiant one) if your friend is gonna be running small mics terminated that way.  To guarantee a lack of cellphone interference, and to keep things simple, why not have your buddy pick up a Church Audio Ugly Battery Box with his CA-1x's of choice?  There's very little that can be done wrong that way and if your friend needs more gain, he can always boost the levels on the M10 directly as the preamp on the deck is decent.  I don't see the point in dropping funds for a Naiant TinyBox or Church Audio Preamp for that matter if he's running 1/8" terminated mics.  I've run preamps in the past and went back to running a battery box only for over a year until I picked up actives and even then, I'll likely just run the battery box on the 1/8" mics.

That's my $0.02.

[melvis1645]

Church mics> 9200,BB>DR2D was my first rig after the h4 and was a vast improvement. I thought the h4 produced good results but nothing like what external mics with a pre or bb will get. I haven't used my h4 in around 2 years not sure why I still keep it.

[justink]

he asked me about the Zoom H4 as a standalone all in one to begin with.  I told him he's better off with some external mics like what Chris Church produces and maybe a Sony M10.

i haven't had to shop around for new gear in a while so, i don't really know what's up.  but what's a solid deck that he can grow from? 

maybe something like church mics > whatever p48 naint box > M10?

Hard to say for certain the best deck but a popular choice around here is the M10.  I've had a couple of "freak" incidents with mine of late but other than that it's been pretty bulletproof compared to my old R09.

Church mics (and most other miniature mics) are terminated in a 1/8" connector.  I don't see the absolute need for a preamp (be it a CA or Naiant one) if your friend is gonna be running small mics terminated that way.  To guarantee a lack of cellphone interference, and to keep things simple, why not have your buddy pick up a Church Audio Ugly Battery Box with his CA-1x's of choice?  There's very little that can be done wrong that way and if your friend needs more gain, he can always boost the levels on the M10 directly as the preamp on the deck is decent.  I don't see the point in dropping funds for a Naiant TinyBox or Church Audio Preamp for that matter if he's running 1/8" terminated mics.  I've run preamps in the past and went back to running a battery box only for over a year until I picked up actives and even then, I'll likely just run the battery box on the 1/8" mics.

That's my $0.02.

good point.  I've heard good things about the Tascam DR2D as well.  The 5 second pre-record buffer on the Sony M10 is nice.  is there any mini recorder like these with a digital in that he might utilize in the future?

[adrianf74]

good point.  I've heard good things about the Tascam DR2D as well.  The 5 second pre-record buffer on the Sony M10 is nice.  is there any mini recorder like these with a digital in that he might utilize in the future?

The DR2D isn't a bad choice but it's battery life pales next to the M10. 

Why would he want digital in because miniature mics are all analog?  Many people around here are running Schoeps active rigs to a TinyBox or Nbox and they're both analog.

[justink]

good point.  I've heard good things about the Tascam DR2D as well.  The 5 second pre-record buffer on the Sony M10 is nice.  is there any mini recorder like these with a digital in that he might utilize in the future?

The DR2D isn't a bad choice but it's battery life pales next to the M10. 

Why would he want digital in because miniature mics are all analog?  Many people around here are running Schoeps active rigs to a TinyBox or Nbox and they're both analog.

good point.  i was just thinking if he (probably won't) would get a V3 or something in the future.  but yeah, the A/D in the M10 or even the Edirol series is just fine.

[Ultfris101]

Strong recommendation for ca-14 omni and/or card > ca 9200 > m10 as a starting rig. You can do mic straight in to m10 but good experience to have a pre to get feel for concepts. Served me well.

[2manyrocks]

I have the 2d and the M10.  Unless your friend has a need to record 4 channels with the 2d, the M10 is very much my preferred unit because of its outstanding battery life. You don't have to worry about your batteries running out at the wrong time with the M10.

[rhinowing]

in support of the dr-2d: I get about six hours of battery out of a pair of AAs, which is plenty for me. it's also really cheap (mine cost I think $90)

[jbell]

I would have him grab a Naiant Tinybox.  I think he could possibly have it configured to do 9v and p48 so if he upgrades to p48 mics he is covered.  You also have other options with the TB like transformers, dual outputs, etc.  A good start would be at853>Tinybox>M10.  With the at853 you have more mic pattern options than church mics.  Talk to darktrain he seems to have them for sale often maybe he can help you out. 

[adrianf74]

Where's my Time Machine on the DR-2D?    That $90 price was when they were being cleared out but you're lucky to find one for $170 now.

For the 853, it would've been my first choice except that the caps are becoming harder to find.  The subcard caps are next to impossible to find now that AT has no more and the omnis are $130 at Sound Pros and rarely show up.  There are also the hyper card caps but those sound like crap (I've avoided picking them up for that reason).

And regarding the TinyBox, I think the $300 price tag with P48, a 1/8" breakout adapter cable, and a 1/8" mini cable for might be cost prohibitive.  I love my TinyBox to death, however, I'd have a hard time recommending it to a new taper just getting his feet wet.  He could easily buy a 9100 in the Yard but I truly think the battery box approach to start with is a better bet.  If he enjoys it enough, he could pick up a preamp later and keep the battery box as a backup should his 9100 have issues. 

[jbell]

$300 for a P48 and 9v pre is cheap IMO and your covered if you get the mic upgrade bug.  I wish I would have started buying at a higher price point when I first bought gear.  I wouldn't have wasted so much time with gear I only ran a few times.

Where's my Time Machine on the DR-2D?    That $90 price was when they were being cleared out but you're lucky to find one for $170 now.

For the 853, it would've been my first choice except that the caps are becoming harder to find.  The subcard caps are next to impossible to find now that AT has no more and the omnis are $130 at Sound Pros and rarely show up.  There are also the hyper card caps but those sound like crap (I've avoided picking them up for that reason).

And regarding the TinyBox, I think the $300 price tag with P48, a 1/8" breakout adapter cable, and a 1/8" mini cable for might be cost prohibitive.  I love my TinyBox to death, however, I'd have a hard time recommending it to a new taper just getting his feet wet.  He could easily buy a 9100 in the Yard but I truly think the battery box approach to start with is a better bet.  If he enjoys it enough, he could pick up a preamp later and keep the battery box as a backup should his 9100 have issues.

[adrianf74]

$300 for a P48 and 9v pre is cheap IMO and your covered if you get the mic upgrade bug.  I wish I would have started buying at a higher price point when I first bought gear.  I wouldn't have wasted so much time with gear I only ran a few times.

I've run everything under the sun over the last twenty years of being involved in this hobby and I've always liked "simplicity."  When it comes to small mics, I'd sooner run a battery box because I can travel light.  For somebody getting into this, I don't think an extra $30-$40 for a battery box over the mics is a waste of time when they can always use it in a pinch.  Sometimes, the venues I go to become very pat-down/wand heavy and a battery box is all that can be easily brought into the venue. 

Frankly, if the OP's friend is going with an M10, and mini mics, I don't see the need for a preamp.  In fact, I sold my preamp a while ago and went battery box only because I kept getting hit with cellphone interference.  This was before I had a TinyBox, however, the TinyBox will only be with me if I'm using actives; if I'm using the 853's, the battery box comes with.

[jbell]

^^  He asked for suggestions and I gave mine!  I guess we can agree to disagree. 

[jagraham]

I love the DR-2d but I usually run 4ch. I know he's probably just starting with 2ch but I know there were times when I first started that a second source(like SBD) would have been nice to have had. The big advantage for the DR-2d is the 4ch function. I would also recommend the DR-05, mine usually gets about 14 hours on 2 AAs. I'd imagine the PCMM10 has a better DAC, but the DR-05 is very cheap in comparison. It all comes down to how much money they have to spend and how much each part of the rig matters to them.

As usual, strong recommendation for CA-14s or CA-11 mics for anyone running this type of gear. I'm sure some ATs would probably do the job as well. It's not absolutely essential but I would recommend a CA preamp with the CA mics(instead of a BB). The reason being that I typically have pretty low levels when running the CA mics > BB > mic in on these type of devices. I guess if we are running 24 bit it shouldn't matter much but I prefer the sound of the pre in most cases. Not pretending to know anything technical here, it just sounds better to me.

You might want to clarify to them that they need to cater their decision to how much open vs. stealth taping they are doing. That can be pretty important in deciding which recorder, which mics, which power, etc.

[red]

rhinowing, what batteries do you use on the dr2d?  my rechargeables only get about 3.5; I believe fresh eneloops get more (5ish).  I absolutely love my sp-cmc's (4u, but, in my limited experience, for loud shows the 4.7k mod is essential w/ these.

[rhinowing]

rhinowing, what batteries do you use on the dr2d?  my rechargeables only get about 3.5; I believe fresh eneloops get more (5ish).  I absolutely love my sp-cmc's (4u, but, in my limited experience, for loud shows the 4.7k mod is essential w/ these.

just any store bought AAs -- I got a big pack from radioshack for like 10 bucks....I've actually never run 4 channel with it though, I imagine that decreases battery life a bunch

[red]

I was getting about 3.5 hours, running 4 channel. 

[colinw]

As a relatively new taper I have gone through this myself. I started with a tascam dr07mkii and ca14s as well as a small battery box. This slowed me to get some experience taping stealth and you can move to open taping with a stand and an extension cable for the mics. Eash peasy.
I hen stepped up to a tinybox and some larger mics for open taping - Busman bsc1s. Now I can use the Tinybox to power the CAs or the busman's with the Tinybox. I also bought a dr2d deck to allow for 4 channel recording. I have pretty much every situation covered with the gear I have.
For starting out in would think Church mics, a small battery box, and any deck will do. Even q cheaper tascam can be had for about $50 and the overall investment is pretty small format decent rig. He can always but preamp and more feature rich decks latest, as well as stepping up to a full open rig if he wants to.

[Phil Zone]

i would recomend the ca14-9100-m10 setup as well, however if he wants full size mics, i started with samson cl2 mics and they are pretty decent, you can listen to my tapes in the link in my signurature. there are a few i now have a busman bsc1s. but i had cl2-art dual pre-tascam dr05 as my first setup and it served me well for quite a while and still use them ocasionally as a 2nd or 3rd rig under the busmans or my ca setup.

[acidjack]

I'd also consider Naiant's mics. The X-R line has switchable caps and costs less than the CAs I believe. Lots of configurations.  The smallest version is about the size of an AT853. 

[StarkRavingCalm]

I was getting about 3.5 hours, running 4 channel.

The latest firmware on the DR-2D, 1.03,  has much better battery life. I have gotten 5 hours (Duracells) running 4 channel.
5 hours is when I stopped recording so I may have been able to get another hour out of it.

[candor]

I have the 2d and the M10.  Unless your friend has a need to record 4 channels with the 2d, the M10 is very much my preferred unit because of its outstanding battery life. You don't have to worry about your batteries running out at the wrong time with the M10.

I had a 2d and returned it to get an m10 because of weak battery life in the 2d and the ability to run a wider range of input settings with just a battery box with the m10.  Recording to the internal memory of the Sony eliminates possible memory card issues as well.  All in all I think the m10 would be a better recorder for a beginner and will work well as your friend gets experience as well.

[daspyknows]

good point.  I've heard good things about the Tascam DR2D as well.  The 5 second pre-record buffer on the Sony M10 is nice.  is there any mini recorder like these with a digital in that he might utilize in the future?

The DR2D isn't a bad choice but it's battery life pales next to the M10. 

Why would he want digital in because miniature mics are all analog?  Many people around here are running Schoeps active rigs to a TinyBox or Nbox and they're both analog.

I use the DR2D with Engerizer Lithiums and have no issues with battery life.  While the M10 does better its not a dealbreaker for me.  Digital in isn't going do do any good unless you have an external D/A converter which is one more piece of gear.  I run the Schoeps/NBox/DR2D as my small stealth rig.

[earmonger]

Here's another vote for holding off on the preamp. It's a big investment for someone just getting started, and I've never found I needed one for anything amplified (or even clearly  audible acoustic). I don't see the point of getting a preamp and turning it down to zero when you can get the same power to the mics via a battery box for 1/3 the $$.

If your friend is lower-budget or impatient, the Sound Professionals BMC-2 binaurals are what I started with, and those recordings sound pretty good. (Get the clips and, if they're getting a lot of use, the 3-year warranty.) The Naiant X-X stereo mic for $69 also looks tasty, but a lot bigger.

[rhinowing]

If your friend is lower-budget or impatient, the Sound Professionals BMC-2 binaurals are what I started with, and those recordings sound pretty good. (Get the clips and, if they're getting a lot of use, the 3-year warranty.)

seconding these mics, they sound surprisingly good for the price point ($60 last time I checked) and are also extremely small, about the size of a pencil eraser

[F.O.Bean]

I would go with CA14[Cards and/or Omnis] > CA 9100 Preamp > Sony M10 as well. I hardly think getting a 9100 for around $100 is a BIG investment And it serves as a battery box if you leave the gain low. Also, running LINE-IN on the M10 is DEFINITELY preferred over running MIC-IN, even tho the Preamp of the M10 is quite good. That way he would be covered if recording loud or quiet music. Why spend like $30-50 on a battery box, just to turn around and sell it if he needs more gain Doesnt make sense IMO

For a total of around $500, he would have mics/preamp/recorder, and a lil $$$ left over for accessories!!! Thats a pretty damn cheap setup IMO

[willndmb]

I would have him grab a Naiant Tinybox.  I think he could possibly have it configured to do 9v and p48 so if he upgrades to p48 mics he is covered.  You also have other options with the TB like transformers, dual outputs, etc.  A good start would be at853>Tinybox>M10.  With the at853 you have more mic pattern options than church mics.  Talk to darktrain he seems to have them for sale often maybe he can help you out.

agreed

[daspyknows]

I would go with CA14[Cards and/or Omnis] > CA 9100 Preamp > Sony M10 as well. I hardly think getting a 9100 for around $100 is a BIG investment And it serves as a battery box if you leave the gain low. Also, running LINE-IN on the M10 is DEFINITELY preferred over running MIC-IN, even tho the Preamp of the M10 is quite good. That way he would be covered if recording loud or quiet music. Why spend like $30-50 on a battery box, just to turn around and sell it if he needs more gain Doesnt make sense IMO

For a total of around $500, he would have mics/preamp/recorder, and a lil $$$ left over for accessories!!! Thats a pretty damn cheap setup IMO

I would agree but since I use the DR2D as my stealth recorder I would substitute that.  I also would agree about line in.  Mic preamps in theses inexpensive reorders leave a bit to be desired.

[earmonger]

I run mics-->battery box-->Line-in on the PCM-M10. At a typically loud show, gain is 5 to 7 depending on which mics.

Seriously, all the talk here has at various points convinced me to try a preamp only to turn around and sell it after it became clear that I was never going to use any gain from it. If I go to a quiet show, mics-->BB-->Mic-in. If I go to anything amplified, mics-->BB-->Line-in does it.

Why spend the extra $90 - $100 on a preamp if you're just going to use it as a battery box?

[TimSmith]

I run mics-->battery box-->Line-in on the PCM-M10. At a typically loud show, gain is 5 to 7 depending on which mics.

Seriously, all the talk here has at various points convinced me to try a preamp only to turn around and sell it after it became clear that I was never going to use any gain from it. If I go to a quiet show, mics-->BB-->Mic-in. If I go to anything amplified, mics-->BB-->Line-in does it.

Why spend the extra $90 - $100 on a preamp if you're just going to use it as a battery box?

Agree. I have CA-9200 preamp, but I mainly use mics>bbox>m10. Mic-in or line-in (depending on loudness of a show). IMHO M10 has much better preamp comparing to cheaper recorders (tascam dr05, zoomh2, etc...) I am satisfied even with some quiet ethno recordings I made recently. An external preamp for a loud rock show? No, sir! Less equipment - less chance of a stupid mistake.

[willndmb]

How is it less gear with a battery box vs preamp?

For me the tinybox is a way better solution then a battery box for the simple fact you can run three set ups in one - pip/48v/actives
And the tb is smaller then the m10
So in the end yes it cost more up front but you have one of that does it all, small and compact, and great resale value

[Marshall7]

I run mics-->battery box-->Line-in on the PCM-M10. At a typically loud show, gain is 5 to 7 depending on which mics.

Seriously, all the talk here has at various points convinced me to try a preamp only to turn around and sell it after it became clear that I was never going to use any gain from it. If I go to a quiet show, mics-->BB-->Mic-in. If I go to anything amplified, mics-->BB-->Line-in does it.

Why spend the extra $90 - $100 on a preamp if you're just going to use it as a battery box?

Maybe you should talk with "bluntforcetrauma".  He lists 8 preamps:

PreAmps
SD MP2
DPA mma6000
Sonosax sx-m2 x (4)
Aeta psp3
tiny box

[Church-Audio]

good point.  I've heard good things about the Tascam DR2D as well.  The 5 second pre-record buffer on the Sony M10 is nice.  is there any mini recorder like these with a digital in that he might utilize in the future?

The DR2D isn't a bad choice but it's battery life pales next to the M10. 

Why would he want digital in because miniature mics are all analog?  Many people around here are running Schoeps active rigs to a TinyBox or Nbox and they're both analog.

I agree I would get the m10 over almost anything. Although I still have a R09HR that does the job.