Topic: A recording contract to consider the venue?

[RemotelyLocated]

Just got off the phone with a leader of a swing band. He's going to permit me to record a live show next month. This is strictly for me as a hobby/no money changing hands and no distribution from me save perhaps a CD for the bandleader afterwards.

He's concerned the venue may object, since they have their own "sound people" (who wouldn't be recording). The band does have a vocalist and I asked if the house P.A. would be used for that or the band and ... he said no, they have their own P.A. on stage, presumably just for the vocalist--the 18-piece band doesn't use amplification. Anyway, my takeaway from that was that the venue's sound people have no function for the event and I certainly wouldn't be patching into anything except an A/C outlet ...

I suggested a recording contract that specifies the recording wouldn't be sold nor distributed, in case the venue thinks they'd be missing out on a revenue share OR that they'd simply feel better about me traipsing around running cables and mic stand ... I've seen a few examples here of contracts but none? that seemed to include the venue's position. Got advice? We have about 30 days to get this settled.

It may wind up being just a 2-party agreement he shows to the venue and they say, "whatever, fine ..."

Thanks!

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size/capacity of the venue? The bigger the venue (typically) the more complex and official the documentation needs to be. I've found that venues that max out at 200 patrons barely need anything other than the person in charge on the band end saying "this person is with us as a roadie for purpose XYZ" at the beginning of the night.

I do a lot of stuff like this anymore and while I don't use contracts to assuage venue issues, if I were going to, I'd do a simple 2 party agreement since you only need AC power and most bands that have riders have riders that include the usage of AC power (if the band doesn't have a rider or it's just a small verbal one, then chances are the venue is small enough that they won't care either). The biggest thing I can suggest is for the purposes of the gig, you want to be considered part of the band's crew. Either a "roadie" or some other sub-classification that is staff related, but not associated with the house crew. Since you won't be impacting the house, the majority won't bat an eye after that. My toughest run ins are all with me being not affiliated with either the venue or the band and instead coming in as a third party.

Also, kudos for working this out in advance.  pro-tip: Make sure that you check in about 5-7 days before the event to ensure that everything is still going as planned.

[RemotelyLocated]

That's an interesting angle and makes sense, thanks. And yes, I'll be coming in from out of town for this and showing up about an hour before the band leader, so I'll need a venue contact who's on board ahead of time so there are no surprises.

[John Willett]

On thinks like this you do need to specify that any CD of the recording is for the band only and that no commercial use be made of the recording.

If they *do*, later, want to make commercial use of the recording; then you would want a fee (and you may also then have to pay a venue fee).

This covers you if you capture a great performance that they want to release - in which case you deserve a fee.

[acidjack]

I have a standing contract in place with a venue. However, based on the specifics of this, I would just ask the venue. I highly doubt a contract is needed. And if it is, this venue might want to reconsider its priorities....

[RemotelyLocated]

I'm thinking to use wording that shows the agreement he and I have, and that he'd be able to show the venue as a way of letting them know who's gaining access.

As far as distribution is concerned, even if this is the "recording of the century" it won't be sold nor distributed and the contract will say that.

[John Willett]

As far as distribution is concerned, even if this is the "recording of the century" it won't be sold nor distributed and the contract will say that.

I would leave the door open - because if it *does* turn out to be something special you don't want to have to ditch it for release because the contract banned it.  But you do need to just say that if release is desired at a future date it would need a new contract and payment.

[RemotelyLocated]

Fair enough-makes sense, thanks.

[vanark]

I have a standing contract in place with a venue. However, based on the specifics of this, I would just ask the venue. I highly doubt a contract is needed. And if it is, this venue might want to reconsider its priorities....

Thank you for saying this, Jonas.  I really think a contract is overboard in this case.

[runonce]

I think S.O.P. should be just fine...

Making such a big production out of this might only make it harder for other tapers at this venue...("hey buddy, where's your contract...?")

And since you've declared it "hobby/no money" - I think you're basically working for free - and the product belongs to the band.

[DigiGal]

I think S.O.P. should be just fine...

Making such a big production out of this might only make it harder for other tapers at this venue...("hey buddy, where's your contract...?")

And since you've declared it "hobby/no money" - I think you're basically working for free - and the product belongs to the band.

^^^ This, the initial tendency would be to fear contracts the more detailed the bigger the fear.  If they are asking for a contract then that's different.

[runonce]

I think S.O.P. should be just fine...

Making such a big production out of this might only make it harder for other tapers at this venue...("hey buddy, where's your contract...?")

And since you've declared it "hobby/no money" - I think you're basically working for free - and the product belongs to the band.

^^^ This, the initial tendency would be to fear contracts the more detailed the bigger the fear.  If they are asking for a contract then that's different.

I think even in a pro, for-pay scenario, the recording engineer gets paid to work that day, record the show - and that's it...unlikely they see any of the "revenue" side of the job.(probably true for the venue, as well)

Such affairs are generally worked out by the artist management - kinda out-of-bounds for the recording engineer.

And if the venue thinks they have some stake - that's up to them to arrange.

[kirk97132]

I think S.O.P. should be just fine...

Making such a big production out of this might only make it harder for other tapers at this venue...("hey buddy, where's your contract...?")

And since you've declared it "hobby/no money" - I think you're basically working for free - and the product belongs to the band.

^^^ This, the initial tendency would be to fear contracts the more detailed the bigger the fear.  If they are asking for a contract then that's different.

Absolute agreement.  Even at the college where I work, one year we were required by the dept Dean to secure "permission to archive" the recording for school use only and it made things way worse than just asking

[willndmb]

I have a standing contract in place with a venue. However, based on the specifics of this, I would just ask the venue. I highly doubt a contract is needed. And if it is, this venue might want to reconsider its priorities....

Thank you for saying this, Jonas.  I really think a contract is overboard in this case.

i typed the same thing before page posted and deleted it because what do I know
But it seems like a contract is overkill, just ask/tell them what you are up to

[page]

I have a standing contract in place with a venue. However, based on the specifics of this, I would just ask the venue. I highly doubt a contract is needed. And if it is, this venue might want to reconsider its priorities....

Thank you for saying this, Jonas.  I really think a contract is overboard in this case.

i typed the same thing before page posted and deleted it because what do I know
But it seems like a contract is overkill, just ask/tell them what you are up to

that's sort of unfortunate to hear. I don't intend for my posts to be mechanisms of silence, just a different view point.

[willndmb]

I have a standing contract in place with a venue. However, based on the specifics of this, I would just ask the venue. I highly doubt a contract is needed. And if it is, this venue might want to reconsider its priorities....

Thank you for saying this, Jonas.  I really think a contract is overboard in this case.

i typed the same thing before page posted and deleted it because what do I know
But it seems like a contract is overkill, just ask/tell them what you are up to

that's sort of unfortunate to hear. I don't intend for my posts to be mechanisms of silence, just a different view point.

dont get me wrong, I say deleted as I never hit post and like I said what do I know
My thought was just the a thought, I have no experience with contract nd venues
It just seemed like overkill to me
Your post and others have helped educate me

[RemotelyLocated]

My understudying is that the contract we'll have for this is firstly to make the band leader comfortable so that he can go to the venue with an explanation as to why a 3rd party is gonna show up early and start setting some recording gear up. But yeah, in the end the venue's either gonna shrug or come back with an objection.

[John Willett]

And since you've declared it "hobby/no money" - I think you're basically working for free - and the product belongs to the band.

No, this is dangerous!

I know "hobbyists" that can produce recordings of equal (or better) than many professionals.

So - always retain your just rights over your recordings - because if you do produce something exceptional it is very unfair for the band to make lots of money from it and you get nothing.

Recording for free for band copies only is fine, but if anything ends up as a commercial product you *do* need your just rewards - and getting this sorted up-front is fine.

[acidjack]

My understudying is that the contract we'll have for this is firstly to make the band leader comfortable so that he can go to the venue with an explanation as to why a 3rd party is gonna show up early and start setting some recording gear up. But yeah, in the end the venue's either gonna shrug or come back with an objection.

Unless the band leader is an attorney (well really, even if he is) tell him a contract is not necessary and to simply inform the venue when he gets there.  If he's really that concerned about it, tell him to print out whatever e-mails you have back and forth.

The only way a venue will ever give an artist a hard time about letting someone record them is if the venue charges its own fees for recordings.  This sounds like a pretty small band, not Bob Dylan playing Carnegie Hall or something. The artist is going to walk in, at most tell the sound guy what's up, and that guy is going to shrug and it'll be fine.

[obaaron]

^^

This has been my experience.  Never had an issue with any venues as long as the artist is OK with it.

[capnhook]

^^

This has been my experience.  Never had an issue with any venues as long as the artist is OK with it.

yep.....load in with the band, even better.

[page]

^^

This has been my experience.  Never had an issue with any venues as long as the artist is OK with it.

yep.....load in with the band, even better.

+1 on both accounts.

It's the equivalent of the "Professional's Guestlist," especially at smaller venues (sub 400ish people).

I had a string of shows of something like 18 shows from early June to this past weekend where I didn't pay to get in because I was there when the band arrived and walked in with them. Thats why, in my earlier post, I said you want to be part of "the crew"  for an event and behave accordingly. I looked and acted the part of a crew member.

[kirk97132]

I had a string of shows of something like 18 shows from early June to this past weekend where I didn't pay to get in because I was there when the band arrived and walked in with them. Thats why, in my earlier post, I said you want to be part of "the crew"  for an event and behave accordingly. I looked and acted the part of a crew member.

I agree 100%.  Of course, I think that the majority of"tapers" I have run into have no idea what it means to be part of a crew during load in.  They just have never done it and when around people who do it for a living it is blatantly obvious.  And I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet that you are a "little" older Page.  I know that being older myself means I am less likely to be questioned by some 20 something venue staff person when I show up around load in.  And I work in production.  There is  a lot to be said for being able to walk the walk and talk the  talk.  So I'd suggest to some of our younger people here.  Go early find the soundguy, tell him straight up , hey how can I help out?  I don't really know what you need but just tell me and I'll do it.  Worry about your gear AFTER the band and house are set up.  Get some experience being around band set ups and road crews, and get your local soundguys familiar with your face.  It will give you large returns later on.

[runonce]

I had a string of shows of something like 18 shows from early June to this past weekend where I didn't pay to get in because I was there when the band arrived and walked in with them. Thats why, in my earlier post, I said you want to be part of "the crew"  for an event and behave accordingly. I looked and acted the part of a crew member.

I agree 100%.  Of course, I think that the majority of"tapers" I have run into have no idea what it means to be part of a crew during load in.  They just have never done it and hwen around people who do it for a living it is blatantly obvious.  And I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet that you are a "little" older Page.  I know that being older myself means I am less likely to be questioned by some 20 something venue staff person when I show up around load in.  And I work in production.  There is  alot to be said for being able to walk the walk and talk the  talk.  So I'd suggest to some of our younger people here.  Go early find the soundguy, tell him straight up , hey how can I help out?  I don't really know what you need but just tell me and I'll do it.  Worry about your gear AFTER they band and house are set up.  Get some experience being around band set ups and road crews, and get your local soundguys familiar with your face.  It will give you large returns later on.

A friend works tech/production for local university venue - they had Jackson Browne awhile back and some fellows rolled in with the band members and a van driver - carrying gear. Walked out to the center handicapped section and setup video and mics. It wasn't until about halfway through the show the venue staff figured out they weren't part of the show - and even then...they just let them roll because they were afraid to say anything! They did actually ask my friend - his response was basically..."not my job man..."

[guitard]

The only way a venue will ever give an artist a hard time about letting someone record them is if the venue charges its own fees for recordings.

Another thing to consider ...

Depending on the location, there is also the matter concerning union work rules.  Some places require that certain work be done by a union member.  So by entering into a contractual agreement - that could potentially open up a can of worms with the local union.

[bombdiggity]

The only way a venue will ever give an artist a hard time about letting someone record them is if the venue charges its own fees for recordings.

That's not actually the only way.  That is the major issue but there can also be the union issue mentioned.  In addition there are some venue owners/managers/employees/promoters that just have their own issue with recording and even with band permission open recording can be a major battle/blowout.  I've run into a few of those over the years.  The bands typically will defer to the venue (as they generally want to return).  That can be a true test of tact... 

[acidjack]

The only way a venue will ever give an artist a hard time about letting someone record them is if the venue charges its own fees for recordings.

That's not actually the only way.  That is the major issue but there can also be the union issue mentioned.  In addition there are some venue owners/managers/employees/promoters that just have their own issue with recording and even with band permission open recording can be a major battle/blowout.  I've run into a few of those over the years.  The bands typically will defer to the venue (as they generally want to return).  That can be a true test of tact...

Sorry, you are right of course. I should have said, "a venue of that size". Carnegie Hall or Lincoln Center probably give you a hard time about taping no matter what.

400 person club like what I think is being discussed? Very very rare. I don't believe venues that size are unionized, and unless the owner is weird about it for some reason (possible, though not terribly common) the main issue is likely to be if they want to try and make money off of it.

I'd echo the obvious about what KirkD said too -- it's great to be there at load-in, but if you are, realize you're basically just "in the way" and try and be as unobtrusive, polite and helpful as possible. If you can lend a hand, do it. 

[runonce]

The only way a venue will ever give an artist a hard time about letting someone record them is if the venue charges its own fees for recordings.

That's not actually the only way.  That is the major issue but there can also be the union issue mentioned.  In addition there are some venue owners/managers/employees/promoters that just have their own issue with recording and even with band permission open recording can be a major battle/blowout.  I've run into a few of those over the years.  The bands typically will defer to the venue (as they generally want to return).  That can be a true test of tact...

Sorry, you are right of course. I should have said, "a venue of that size". Carnegie Hall or Lincoln Center probably give you a hard time about taping no matter what.

400 person club like what I think is being discussed? Very very rare. I don't believe venues that size are unionized, and unless the owner is weird about it for some reason (possible, though not terribly common) the main issue is likely to be if they want to try and make money off of it.

I'd echo the obvious about what KirkD said too -- it's great to be there at load-in, but if you are, realize you're basically just "in the way" and try and be as unobtrusive, polite and helpful as possible. If you can lend a hand, do it.

Agree - and Lincoln and Carnegie would have this covered in their contracts!

Sounds like calling attention to yourself is the biggest risk here...

[RemotelyLocated]

FWIW, I've sent off the simple agreement between myself and the bandleader using verbiage that said no distribution etc. and left it at that. He can show it to the venue or not, even though I didn't include anything in there that would cause them to want/need to sign it. If there are any objections or further concerns they'll be voiced. Until then I won't worry about it and expect to get approval in a few days.

Regarding load-in, that would be my preference but I am not sure it will happen. The show starts at 8, the bandleader will show up around 7 ... but here's the thing. Some other group is using the dance floor for dancing lessons at 7:15 and I don't want to be running wires and be in their way, so I may try to show up earlier, around 6 and that means showing up way before any of the band.

Either way I'd want a contact name at the venue who's cool with that.

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I've gotten in the habit of asking about load-in times and when the first person is arriving.

With jazz or big brass bands, it's whoever is drumming, everyone else just sort of shows up 20 minutes before they go on which is sort of nerve-wracking...

best of luck.