Topic: Best ORTF mounting solution?

[jnorman34]

What is the best mounting solution to acheive a correct ORTF setup?  a plain stereo bar with a spacer on one side to raise one mic above the other?  the shure A27M?  others?  why do so many people sell their A27M's?  thanks.

[dennisrtyler]

because they are so heavy. i would go with a vark bar and whatever stock clips you use.

[boojum]

I have done it both ways.  Both ways work.  The Shure is heavy.  The Shure does not break.   ;o)

[John Willett]

Grace SpaceBar.



Distances and angles all clearly marked for a very fast set-up.

A riser comes with each one so you can get one above the other.

[sanaka]

Grace SpaceBar

Dear Lord that's beautiful 

It's like the Porsche/Jessica Alba of T-Bars!

Peace

[ghellquist]

Best - this?
http://www.posthorn.com/S_ortf.html

--- below for a great diversion from the question....

But you could argue about the text at that page. ORTF is not really related to the size of the head if you ask me, more of a coincidence. Compare with for example DIN placing the mics 30 cms apart.

I like this part (applies to me) "Placement is relatively uncritical, and the technique produces good results even in the hands of an inexperienced or hasty user."

And the CMC 6 does not accept phantom power between 12 and 48V, it accepts either the 48V standard OR the 12V standard, not non-standard values in between.


// Gunnar

[boojum]

Gunnar, et al, I checked the reference against the Schoeps site and that particular part of the Posthorn page is a direct quote from the Schoeps site.  Now the question is how accurate is the translation by Schoeps from German to English?

ORTF is a good setup, but is it more "magical" that DIN, DINa, NOS and whatever similar setups there are?  And then there is Williams.  But Lee (Gutbucket) has said that most of Williams thrust seems to be to get the stereo spread even between the speakers on playback. 

We are in danger of falling into the classic "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" argument here.  Not that it has not happened before.     

I will bow out.

Cheers

[jnorman34]

we are sort of going all over the place with this.  we do not have any control over speaker placement for the average listener, so i dont know how that actually figures in.  i have always just set up to ensure that the group fit comfortably inside the mic angle, but that results in uneven signal level across the stereo image (regardless of speaker placement) - you can measure the signal level L-C-R and see that if the angle is not wide enough, the level in the center is higher than the R and L levels, resulting in an uneven stereo spread, heavy in the middle.  if the angle is too great, the L and R signals are higher than the C level, resulting in a hole in the middle.  it seems to me that you truly need to be rather precise for ORTF to acheive the best, most accurate result. 

[Jammin72]

Wow!  That Grace piece is beautiful  The capacity to angle the bar a bit upward on a flat stand should scream "love me" to the FOB folks.  Now to get your shock mounts to align perfectly with the 0deg mark on the individual mounts...

[0vu]

The Grace is pretty and for many techniques works well but for the easiest way to set up ORTF with the correct angles and spacing, using pencil type mics (up to 20mm diameter - or maybe 21mm if you don't mind snapping the odd mic clip from time to time!), the Schoeps UMS20 has the edge.



Just set everything to the click stops next to the green dots, and, if you're using Schoeps mics, underline the engraved word "SCHOEPS" in the logo on the body with the edge of the mic clip, then twist the clips to take care of the height offset and you're ready to go. (If you're not using Schoeps mics, you'd need to measure and perhaps mark your mic bodies for the correct spacing but once done it's a doddle to use.

The UMS20 is also designed to fit into a Schoeps shock mount (the A20S with the thicker elastic) at which point you get shock mounting, with cable strain relief clamp, and the option of angling the bar without needing to use a boom stand. It can also set several other configurations that would be fiddly with other bars

It's useless with anything other than pencil mics though. And the settings do develop a tiny bit of 'play' over time. A quick trip back to Schoeps for some TLC cures this, or you could brave the spring loaded ball bearings inside the sliding clips yourself and replace the little slilicon slip washers to tighten things up again. (Don't underestimate this job though - I opened one of these on the stage at the Royal Albert Hall in London and after a small 'PING' and the soft clicking and rolling sound of very small things landing and vanishing on a very large floor, I rapidly came to regret having bothered! Lucky I have spare UMS20s!)


Or there's always the various fixed spacing/modular bars for use with active capsules/compact mics which are even easier to set up but tend to be very model specific.


The A27 is a dinky idea but I find that even with the tightest spacing, it sets the mics too far apart vertically for my liking.

[Jammin72]

I've used the schoeps bar in the past an loved it for those mics. For the $$ however it looks like Grace really machined a solid piece there. I was always shocked at how much money the UMS-20 sold for. It's a reason I don't think we see more of them out there... well that and the remote capsule craze.

[chris319]

FWIW, I plan to build an ORTF mount out of a plank of wood and some mic flanges. I want something where the angles are locked in and things don't come unscrewed. I'm planning to use maybe a 6" piece of 1" x 3" with one side double thickness to achieve the vertical displacement. Each side will have a male flange and a shock mount to hold the mics:

http://www.atlassound.com/Product.aspx?id=1509&pI=1491

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/OnStage-Stands-MY320-Condenser-Shockmount-Mic-Clip?sku=452077&src=3WWRWXGB&ZYXSEM=0

The shock mounts will be screwed tight to the flanges, possibly glued in place, so the angle will be fixed. On the bottom will be a female flange for attachment to the stand:

http://www.atlassound.com/Product.aspx?id=1507&pI=1491

I'll post a pic when it's finished. Right now I'm waiting for the shock mounts to arrive.

[dorrcoq]

Grace SpaceBar.
Distances and angles all clearly marked for a very fast set-up.

A riser comes with each one so you can get one above the other.

Man, I need to save up and get me one of those!

[John Willett]

Grace SpaceBar.
Distances and angles all clearly marked for a very fast set-up.

A riser comes with each one so you can get one above the other.

Man, I need to save up and get me one of those!

I'm delighted with mine - and Grace are about to make it even better as there will shortly be a "bridge" to mount a centre mic. as well. 

[E@rl]

So I was thinking of running this at an up coming show. I'm using the shure a27m bar and Busman mics and busman shockmounts.


I "think" i have this setup right.. 17cm from cap to cap angle of 110



I just a little confused, is it better to mount on the same plane, or does the vertical setup matter?? 

[DSatz]

boojum asked:

> Now the question is how accurate is the translation by Schoeps from German to English?

I've been Schoeps' primary German-to-English translator for the past few decades, so you can ask me for an unbiased assessment any time ...

The corresponding German sentence is, "Außerdem ist es in Bezug auf die Platzierung des Mikrofons relativ unkritisch und deshalb auch für den noch nicht so erfahrenen oder eiligen Anwender geeignet."

Very literally that means, "Apart from that, it is relatively uncritical with regard to the placement of the microphone, and therefore suitable also for the user who is not yet so experienced, or [who is] in a hurry."

--best regards

By the way, ghellquist is right; the 17 cm spacing wasn't intended to be "head-related." It was determined entirely by experiment.

[boojum]

So I was thinking of running this at an up coming show. I'm using the shure a27m bar and Busman mics and busman shockmounts.


I "think" i have this setup right.. 17cm from cap to cap angle of 110
<snip>
I just a little confused, is it better to mount on the same plane, or does the vertical setup matter?? 

The closer to the same plane the better.

[boojum]

"die Platzierung des Mikrofons relativ unkritisch"   I would have picked up the relative forgivingness of the array from this, as rusty as my German is.  About all I remember is, "Aus, ausser, bei, mit, noch, zeit, von, zu immer nehmen Dativ."  This is of scant help.

Thanks for the input.    ;o)

[John Willett]

So I was thinking of running this at an up coming show. I'm using the shure a27m bar and Busman mics and busman shockmounts.


I "think" i have this setup right.. 17cm from cap to cap angle of 110



I just a little confused, is it better to mount on the same plane, or does the vertical setup matter?? 

The same plane is better,

But with mics that long you can't - so vertical displacement is fine.

[DSatz]

But are those cardioids? The symbol on the capsule head seems to have a little rear lobe, like a supercardioid.

[John Willett]

But are those cardioids? The symbol on the capsule head seems to have a little rear lobe, like a supercardioid.

Oooh - very observant - I missed that.

[meatballs]

I really love the look, construction,and name (space) of the Grace bar.

So to whoever found that baby, thanks -it was exactly what I was looking for.

[E@rl]

But are those cardioids? The symbol on the capsule head seems to have a little rear lobe, like a supercardioid.

Hypers. Was just fooling around with the placement haven't changed that caps since i did my last tape..


That being said, i was thinking of running hypers in ortf. Is that taboo.. like i said still getting into the game i figured id try it see how it sounds and then try something different especially since i have the different caps.

[DSatz]

Not taboo, but certainly not ORTF any more--and depending on the actual pattern of your microphones you'll get a different stereo image and a different impression of the room from what you would get with an ORTF setup.

--best regards

Edited later to add (since there's this vast ocean of empty space next to my photo): Another thing to be aware of is that the term "hypercardioid" is used rather loosely by all but the top-tier microphone manufacturers, and sometimes even by them (e.g. Neumann). True hypercardioid microphones are rather rare. Most microphones that are "more directional that cardioid" are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid in their actual pattern--generally closer to supercardioid. That just seems to sound better and to meet more people's practical requirements. A true hypercardioid is only a short step away from being a figure-8, so it has a considerable rear lobe which can pick up unwanted sound.

[boojum]

But are those cardioids? The symbol on the capsule head seems to have a little rear lobe, like a supercardioid.

Hypers. Was just fooling around with the placement haven't changed that caps since i did my last tape..


That being said, i was thinking of running hypers in ortf. Is that taboo.. like i said still getting into the game i figured id try it see how it sounds and then try something different especially since i have the different caps.

Nothing is taboo.  It is just that in some situations, " . . . results are unpredictable."  Check the "Stereo Zoom" which is a sticky in this forum for angles and ditances on hypers.  You'll have better luck that guessing based on ORTF angles and distances.


Cheers

[John Willett]

I really love the look, construction,and name (space) of the Grace bar.

So to whoever found that baby, thanks -it was exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks - it was me.

Grace should shortly be coming out with more accessories for the bar; including a bridge to mount a centre mic. and a flying rig.

So keep an eye on the Grace website.

[E@rl]

So i tried it out it did what it was supposed to do sounds like im sitting in the spot i was taping from...

Just a little on the quiet side... i was taping from the soundboard at DeerCreek which is about 30 rows back. dead center. Guess ill have to work the rest of the kinks out.have a listen let me know what you think open to any and all suggestions.

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=527228

[meatballs]

I simply can't wait -- did by chance, anyone see a true production "flight"? at AES.

I have a feeling I will be needing a couple more 8040's :-)

Products like this make big smiles for small town country boys and girls! :-)

[jim1274]

So I was thinking of running this at an up coming show. I'm using the shure a27m bar and Busman mics and busman shockmounts.


I "think" i have this setup right.. 17cm from cap to cap angle of 110
<snip>
I just a little confused, is it better to mount on the same plane, or does the vertical setup matter?? 

The closer to the same plane the better.

How critical is this vertical displacement?  I've gone to great lengths to keep the mic bodies just a hair apart in coincident or near coincident pairs.  I looked at that Shure vertical bar at one point and discounted it based on the vertical displacement distance.

Boy, that Grace bar is a thing of beauty, but SOOOO pricey.  I'll stick with the 10 buck bar, a riser or two, and 39 cent plastic protractor....

[goodcooker]

I use a Windtech, an adjustable stereo bar (K&M) and two clips of different heights (an AKG and one that came with my Pelusos)

Cheap and workable with very little vertical separation.

[Kyle]

I use a UMS20, although I am going to pick up a Vark because it is nice and compact (and with a clamp makes it very easy to run a second rig).

However, this bar (link below) with a riser is a great option and the price is great. Probably going to get on of these as well.

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/KM-Microphone-Bar-Dual-Mic-Holder?sku=450488&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=73933361

And make a riser out of these...

http://www.posthorn.com/Usskm_5.html#table4

[newplanet7]

^^^^
This is what I use.
Except I use the folding akg stereo bar.
Same risers though. Works like a charm.
Cost effective too.

How critical is this vertical displacement?  I've gone to great lengths to keep the mic bodies just a hair apart in coincident or near coincident pairs.  I looked at that Shure vertical bar at one point and discounted it based on the vertical displacement distance.

It's not critical if the spacing is withing reason.
An inch or two is no big deal.
It's the only way it works with the vert bar.
I've never had any problem with it.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

However, this bar (link below) with a riser is a great option and the price is great. Probably going to get on of these as well.

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/KM-Microphone-Bar-Dual-Mic-Holder?sku=450488&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=73933361

And make a riser out of these...

http://www.posthorn.com/Usskm_5.html#table4

After using a handful of others, that K&M bar is my current favorite.  Cheap and nothing special, it sets up quickly and I use it all the time.  Bought it at B&H and, even though not stated, mine came with a riser/adapter >

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/534727-REG/K_M_23550_500_55_23550_Adjustable_Microphone_Bar.html