Topic: HELP NEWBIE with MIC

[rayr0683]

Hello All,
                Im new here, and wanted to get some help. I have a Sony WM-D6C Pro Walkman.  I am in need of a Microphone for it. And being new, wanted to get something decent, but affordable. I missed out on a Sony ECM-909A for $25.00, and now am left wondering where to go next??  I wanted something that would work well with the unit, like I have read that the ECM-909 does. Can anyone help me out, and point me in the right direction?? I appreciate it. Thanks, Ray

[skelly14120]

  um ... are you serious ?
I checked the thread to see it this was posted in the 1990's sure enough it was not .That stuffs a little out of date .You can find digital recorders from $120-$399 (Edirol R-09hr) is what I use google it if youre unframilar .No tape flips ,easy transfer to the computer with the SD card and no quality loss from playback .As for the mic spend a bit more go with the church audio CA14s and the st9100 preamp youll be shocked at the quality you get.

[acidjack]

I don't see anything wrong with the D6... analog is um, not the latest and greatest thing, but if you put the right mics into it it'll still sound good.

I would avoid the 909a entirely, and frankly, any entry-level sony mic.

The Church CA-11 is about the least expensive decent quality mic set. The CA-14s are better.  There are also the SP-CMC-4 (AT U853) and SP-CMC-8 (AT 943) from Sound Professionals in that price range. 

Make sure that whatever you buy, you get a "battery box" or preamp as well. 

[skelly14120]

i dont see the point honestly

[rayr0683]

Hey,
        Thanks for your reply. The last thing I needed was a pompous reply like the previous one. I asked a question regarding analog tape machine, which I personally prefer. I know that I can buy a Mini Disc if I wanted. But that wasn't my question. I wanted an answer to the question I posted. Not a history lesson. He can have his convienent 1's and 0's.....and I staye with my nice warm analog.  I am still running 4 Reel to Reels, and have no problem doing so....and yes, front end is a VPI Turntable, with ZETA Tonearm, and several good cartridges. I just seem to hate digital.  So, Im looking for good buy in Mic's that would work with my WM-D6C.....and Im a newbie, so I didn't want to go jumping into the best mic's out there. Im still learning here. I appreciate your taking the time, to analyze my situation, and recommend some mic's. I look on ebay, at all the Sony Mic's, and I dont know what is entry level, and what isn't.  I also looked into an Audio Technica Pro 24 Mic...it has the proper connector on the end of the cord. But Im open to anything you guys may suggest. You know far more than I do. Just keep in mind, I do prefer analog to digital. The place that services the WM-D6C has some Marantz Mini Disc units fo sale, that retailed for $850.00 and he is selling the last 8 or so, for $250.00, but I just dont wanna go there. I just want a good sensitive Mic, Thank You....Ray

I don't see anything wrong with the D6... analog is um, not the latest and greatest thing, but if you put the right mics into it it'll still sound good.

I would avoid the 909a entirely, and frankly, any entry-level sony mic.

The Church CA-11 is about the least expensive decent quality mic set. The CA-14s are better.  There are also the SP-CMC-4 (AT U853) and SP-CMC-8 (AT 943) from Sound Professionals in that price range. 

Make sure that whatever you buy, you get a "battery box" or preamp as well.

[mfrench]

Nice deck. I've made many really nice recordings with one.
I'd suggest a componentized system of a mic pre (or power box), and a pair of mics, rather than a single point stereo mic that is intended to gather news bytes and speech.

i dont see the point honestly

some people like analog.

[mfrench]

Hey,
        Thanks for your reply. The last thing I needed was a pompous reply like the previous one. I asked a question regarding analog tape machine, which I personally prefer. I know that I can buy a Mini Disc if I wanted. But that wasn't my question. I wanted an answer to the question I posted. Not a history lesson. He can have his convienent 1's and 0's.....and I staye with my nice warm analog.  I am still running 4 Reel to Reels, and have no problem doing so....and yes, front end is a VPI Turntable, with ZETA Tonearm, and several good cartridges. I just seem to hate digital.  So, Im looking for good buy in Mic's that would work with my WM-D6C.....and Im a newbie, so I didn't want to go jumping into the best mic's out there. Im still learning here. I appreciate your taking the time, to analyze my situation, and recommend some mic's. I look on ebay, at all the Sony Mic's, and I dont know what is entry level, and what isn't.  I also looked into an Audio Technica Pro 24 Mic...it has the proper connector on the end of the cord. But Im open to anything you guys may suggest. You know far more than I do. Just keep in mind, I do prefer analog to digital. The place that services the WM-D6C has some Marantz Mini Disc units fo sale, that retailed for $850.00 and he is selling the last 8 or so, for $250.00, but I just dont wanna go there. I just want a good sensitive Mic, Thank You....Ray

I don't see anything wrong with the D6... analog is um, not the latest and greatest thing, but if you put the right mics into it it'll still sound good.

I would avoid the 909a entirely, and frankly, any entry-level sony mic.

The Church CA-11 is about the least expensive decent quality mic set. The CA-14s are better.  There are also the SP-CMC-4 (AT U853) and SP-CMC-8 (AT 943) from Sound Professionals in that price range. 

Make sure that whatever you buy, you get a "battery box" or preamp as well.

nice table. I'm a fellow wax and shellac geek.
You ought to look into our team vinyl thread - good folk.
I agree with the suggestion towards the Church Audio mics and power/preamps.

[skelly14120]

  hey sorry i thought someone was pranking the board I understand how it is because i was the same way when digital photography first came around I prefered to use my pentax slr then some piece of crap digital camera.

[acidjack]

So, to summarize, I would still say:

1. Avoid Sony - virtually any Sony mic product.
2. Consider any of the following small mics in the $150-350 range, depending what type of recording you want:

Up close:
Coresound Binaurals (scoff all you will, but I think these sound amazing with the D6)
Sonic Studios DSM-6S/L (again, always loved the analog + HRTF mic sound.  The Sonics are a better build, but more money - over $500)
Church CAFS-omnis (best bang for buck)

Not necessarily as close/more forgiving of bad circumstances:
SP-CMC-4
SP-CMC-8 (both of these last two also offer the advantage of omni/card/hyper patterns and are more versatile)
Church CA-11
Church CA-14 (either Church mic being best bang for the buck)

Pair any of the above (except Sonic/Coresound, which have proprietary powering systems that they can sell you) with any Church or Sound Professionals battery box.

Any of the above will give you a good start that will make recordings (tapes!) that you like.  You can always upgrade from there.
 
I personally always found the D6 to add a nice "color" to the sound that you don't get with digital gear. Obviously it adds headaches.  But used properly, wow, it is a nice sounding piece of gear.

[rayr0683]

Thanks very much for taking me serious, and understanding my situation.  I can understand SKelly thinking it might be a prank, sorry to come off as if pissed, but with the Analog Tape thing, I feel like those of us into Tape, be it reel to reels, cassette, etc....seem to be like Leppers on an Island, only understood by eachother.  I too have a pretty Nice Nikon N-80 SLR Camera, best I could afford, and I dont have a Digital SLR....I do have a Point and Shoot Nikon Cool Pic 7.8 Megapixel, which works for me. I like shooting with my Nikon N80, but if I could afford, would love a Nikon Digital SLR....be able to swap lenses out, so thats nice.

               But back to my WM-D6C...I dont understand Powerboxes....If your trying to be Portable, and carrying least amount of stuff as possible, why does one need a Powerbox/Preamp??  I notice the Microphone Input Jack, on the Sony WM-D6C says Plug In Power...Doesn't this mean that it applies power to the Microphone itself?? I seriously dont understand this part.  But your suggestions sound nice, as I look them up. I see that the Church Audio is out of Canada...so, I guess must be gotten via the Internet. I wasn't sure if Guitar Center, or Sam Ash carried anything that might work well for me?? I have 2 of these stores close by. But just dont know much about Mic. Quality...which is what brought me here.  I will be glad to check o0ut the Turntable Forum on here, I didn't notice it yet, but I just joined. I dont know if there is anything further on Tape, maybe even in the Archives?? But the Microphone is my main priority right now, I was itching to get started...as far as what I wanted to record.....I would say, a sensitive Mic..to record outdoor sounds, maybe some Nature Sounds, etc...and possibly some of the Local Concerts, sponsored by Radio Stations, which are free, they have them every so often, and many times, quality Acts...Richard Thompson, Alot of Older Classic Rock Artists come by...so, Id like to try some of that stuff...that would be the mix of my recordings.  Thank You, Ray

So, to summarize, I would still say:

1. Avoid Sony - virtually any Sony mic product.
2. Consider any of the following small mics in the $150-350 range, depending what type of recording you want:

Up close:
Coresound Binaurals (scoff all you will, but I think these sound amazing with the D6)
Sonic Studios DSM-6S/L (again, always loved the analog + HRTF mic sound.  The Sonics are a better build, but more money - over $500)
Church CAFS-omnis (best bang for buck)

Not necessarily as close/more forgiving of bad circumstances:
SP-CMC-4
SP-CMC-8 (both of these last two also offer the advantage of omni/card/hyper patterns and are more versatile)
Church CA-11
Church CA-14 (either Church mic being best bang for the buck)

Pair any of the above (except Sonic/Coresound, which have proprietary powering systems that they can sell you) with any Church or Sound Professionals battery box.

Any of the above will give you a good start that will make recordings (tapes!) that you like.  You can always upgrade from there.
 
I personally always found the D6 to add a nice "color" to the sound that you don't get with digital gear. Obviously it adds headaches.  But used properly, wow, it is a nice sounding piece of gear.

[su6oxone]

I notice the Microphone Input Jack, on the Sony WM-D6C says Plug In Power...Doesn't this mean that it applies power to the Microphone itself??

The plug-in power of your WM-D6C (which I'm not familiar with btw) will supply some amount of power, usually in the 3V area, whereas many mics may need more (5V or so) to be properly powered.  Some mics may do with what's provided by your deck though.  Your best bang for your buck mic is probably the Church Audio CA-11 mic, which may need more power though, but you can get that either with the Church Audio 9100 preamp or any battery box (see soundpro's website: soundprofessionals.com).  Try the yard sale forum to see if you can get these used to save some more $$$ (you can probably get both the CA-11 and 9100 for $150 or $125 for the CA-11 with a batt box).

[mfrench]

Ray,

The D6C deck was never intended to record music, though, it does a nice job with it.
They were intended to use for gathering news sound bytes in the field, and for convenience. The Sony mics match the power supply well enough, but are not that good of a mic for quieter, sensitive recording; and pretty much suck for anything loud and amplified. They are intended for a reprter to shove in someones face for comments.
There is an inherent issue with the mic preamp, and its "power-in", and that is that the power-in makes it too sensitive to use with outboard condensor mics that require larger voltage. When that signal voltage hits the preamp, it overloads, or does what we call brickwalling. This brickwalling is an electrical voltage overload of the preamp circuitry, and it presents itself as a truncated wav form, and in distortion in the drums and bass in loud amplified music or passages.

So, to counter that, we opt for the line-in rather than the mic-in. The line-in bypasses the overly sensitive mic preamp and is a far cleaner input source.
The problem with this is that the line-in has no built in amplification, so the incoming signal will be very weak, and your s-n-r will be very high in the noise side -- not what you want with analog.
So, to counter the weak signal, you use an outboard preamp to give gain to the signal prior to the line-in input of the recorder.
With cassette analog, its crucial to get this gain amplification in the mastering process due to generational degradation in analog.

In real loud music, you might not need any amplification for going line-in, and might be able to run the D6 line-in at levels that require a bit of attenuation below level 10, but quieter music and ambient nature recordings will need to have a bump up in the levels. Back before we had portable mic preamps, we'd run line-in at level 10, and attenuate down from there, depending on how loud the music/impulse was.

At any rate,... almost any quality outboard mic preamp will be more suited for music an quiet circumstance than the onboard D6 mic pre; Its not bad, but its not great.
Church Audio has a very small mic preamp that he sells. Give that direction some serious consideration. It might cost a bit more upfront, but, you'll save a step in the upgrade bug.

Yu can get in touch with Chris Church, here at ts.com. Hes a member in good standing.
This is one of his ads in our retail section:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130844.0

[rayr0683]

Thanks for the informative replies. I really am learning, I dont know any of this stuff. But let me ask you something?  If you use a preamp, like from Church, and one of his Mic's.....and then, use the Line IN, instead of the Mic Input..can you still monitor sound through the headphones?? Or are you then stuck looking at the single Red LED Meter to  monitor recording level?? I liked having the ability to go into Record Pause, and monitoring the sound via my headphones.  Would I be able to do that??  I appreciate your help in this.  Thanks, Ray

Ray,

The D6C deck was never intended to record music, though, it does a nice job with it.
They were intended to use for gathering news sound bytes in the field, and for convenience. The Sony mics match the power supply well enough, but are not that good of a mic for quieter, sensitive recording; and pretty much suck for anything loud and amplified. They are intended for a reprter to shove in someones face for comments.
There is an inherent issue with the mic preamp, and its "power-in", and that is that the power-in makes it too sensitive to use with outboard condensor mics that require larger voltage. When that signal voltage hits the preamp, it overloads, or does what we call brickwalling. This brickwalling is an electrical voltage overload of the preamp circuitry, and it presents itself as a truncated wav form, and in distortion in the drums and bass in loud amplified music or passages.

So, to counter that, we opt for the line-in rather than the mic-in. The line-in bypasses the overly sensitive mic preamp and is a far cleaner input source.
The problem with this is that the line-in has no built in amplification, so the incoming signal will be very weak, and your s-n-r will be very high in the noise side -- not what you want with analog.
So, to counter the weak signal, you use an outboard preamp to give gain to the signal prior to the line-in input of the recorder.
With cassette analog, its crucial to get this gain amplification in the mastering process due to generational degradation in analog.

In real loud music, you might not need any amplification for going line-in, and might be able to run the D6 line-in at levels that require a bit of attenuation below level 10, but quieter music and ambient nature recordings will need to have a bump up in the levels. Back before we had portable mic preamps, we'd run line-in at level 10, and attenuate down from there, depending on how loud the music/impulse was.

At any rate,... almost any quality outboard mic preamp will be more suited for music an quiet circumstance than the onboard D6 mic pre; Its not bad, but its not great.
Church Audio has a very small mic preamp that he sells. Give that direction some serious consideration. It might cost a bit more upfront, but, you'll save a step in the upgrade bug.

Yu can get in touch with Chris Church, here at ts.com. Hes a member in good standing.
This is one of his ads in our retail section:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130844.0

[acidjack]

^^ Yes, the line in works the same as the mic-in in terms of being able to monitor and the level meters. The only difference is that there is no power being supplied to the mics (because the mics are powered by the battbox).

Assuming you are recording anything that is even remotely loud, you absolutely must have a power supply.  My first rig was a D6C and Coresound mics, and I made the mistake of trying the version without the outboard power first... it was worthless.

[mfrench]

Another thing with the D6C, is that you'll want to run it with the first and second LED's as your signal and average peak, with the occasional flickering of the third LED on your most serious impulses - not constantly lit, but flickering at the peak of the impulse. You never want to see the fourth and fifth lights.

If you are using the mic-in, you never want to set the record level knob below level 4. If its requiring going below that point, you're brickwalling, and need upstream attenuation, or, to be using line-in.
Brickwalling manisfests itself as a constant "on" of the first two LED's, and maybe more depending on how hard you're stuffing it. You'll want to see the LED's dynamically dancing rather than staying on.