Topic: HELP NEWBIE with MIC

[rayr0683]

Guys, Im beginning to understand the need for the battbox, between Mic and D6C...but Im not sure of the answer here. the D6C is not a 3 head Cassette Deck, so, would I still be able to Monitor Sounds through my Headphones, prior to actually recording?? Like being in Record Pause...and hearing the sounds Im going to record?? I can do that, if I go straight into the Mic. Input with a Microphone now.  But, if I use a Battbox, between, and then go to the Line Input...can I still Listen to Sound I want to record, prior to hitting the Record Button??  If im in  Record Pause??  I like being able to hear what Im going to record, prior to hitting the actual record button to engage. I realise after that, I can then look at the LED's to monitor, and hopefully still listen to recording through my Headphones.  Will I be able to do this?  Listen through Headphones?  Thanks, Ray

Another thing with the D6C, is that you'll want to run it with the first and second LED's as your signal and average peak, with the occasional flickering of the third LED on your most serious impulses - not constantly lit, but flickering at the peak of the impulse. You never want to see the fourth and fifth lights.

If you are using the mic-in, you never want to set the record level knob below level 4. If its requiring going below that point, you're brickwalling, and need upstream attenuation, or, to be using line-in.
Brickwalling manisfests itself as a constant "on" of the first two LED's, and maybe more depending on how hard you're stuffing it. You'll want to see the LED's dynamically dancing rather than staying on.

[mfrench]

You'll be hearing the processors, and not what is going onto tape. You're correct, its not a three head deck. You'll be able to get some headphone monitoring via both mic-in and line-in, regardless.

Depending on what you're recording, loud music for instance, you might not be able to hear anything anyway. Again, its a convenience feature built into the deck, and not intended for an audiophile level of satisfaction in playback or monitoring - its just enough to get the job done.

Its a bit finicky, this portable analog thing.  Once you get a bit of experience with the deck, it becomes second nature.

[rayr0683]

Well,
        As my first experience with the sound of high fidelity, I was 15, and never had any nice stereo at home. I was working as a dish washer/busboy. Making $2.10 per hour. I was in Center City Philadelphia, PA...there was a store, several of them, that sold lighters, cameras, boomboxes, and the new thing at the time, walkmans.  The guy called me over to the counter, and said listen to this. He had a Sanyo M4440 version of walkman. I put on headphones, and was blown away. The demo tape, had a song called "Cool Night" and 80's hit. But the sound was awsome to me. I saved up, and bought it.  It had a feature, that I found by accident. I used to take a train, called the El...elevated train.  Real Noisy, and I looked kinda strange with a Walkman on, headphones, etc... Not many people ever had one then, 1981.  Anyway, I hit a button, that I wasn't aware of, called "TALK-LINE"....

         The unit had a Talk-Line Feature....there was a small built in Microphone, like you see on any taperecorder, the flat small Mic. with slots at the top, but it didn't Record.  What happened was, the Microphone would record and amplify the ambient sounds around me, and play them through the headphones. The feature was intended so that, if someone wanted to speak to you, while you were listening to music, you could press the Talk-Line Button, and the sound of the person speaking to you, would come through the headphones, loud and clear. This was so that you didn't have to take off the Headphones, to be interrupted.  The sound was amplified from a very good distance away. I found it really neat. I was able to hear people on the train talking, and they were far away. Some of them would actually be talking about me and my walkman.LOL....But after 1982, this feature was dropped off of all walkmans.  But, when I put a Microphone in the Mic. Input on my WM-D6C....the same thing kind of happens. I can hear sounds very far away. But I must be in the Record Mode, and either recording, or have the tape paused, with the Record Button pressed in, and the Record Level adjusted to a proper level.  So, this is why, I was hoping to be able to monitor sound via headphones, when I want to Record the Nature Sounds, that Id like to do. Rather than just have to look at the LED Meters....because then I dont know what Im recording, just that something is being recorded, due to Meter Movement. So, for the Nature Outdoor Sounds that I want to Record, Id like to hear via headphones, and know what Im recording. I have done this with an old Microphone that I have, and the WM-D6C...so I know it can work, and understand, that Loud Music probably would be difficult to hear via headphones.  Am I correct about this??  And does anyone remember the Talk-Line or HotLine Feature that was on the very early Walkmans, both Sony, Sanyo, Craig, Grundig...etc...?? This was my very beginnings to getting into HiFi.  Thanks, Ray

You'll be hearing the processors, and not what is going onto tape. You're correct, its not a three head deck. You'll be able to get some headphone monitoring via both mic-in and line-in, regardless.

Depending on what you're recording, loud music for instance, you might not be able to hear anything anyway. Again, its a convenience feature built into the deck, and not intended for an audiophile level of satisfaction in playback or monitoring - its just enough to get the job done.

Its a bit finicky, this portable analog thing.  Once you get a bit of experience with the deck, it becomes second nature.

[mfrench]

In reading your post, I was struck by how you might enjoy omni mics, and some of the variations of the binaural techniques, which are essentially baffled omnidirectional microphone techniques. This is basically having the mics fairly close together and isolating them from each other with various baffles - some being artificial heads, others being foam disc baffles, or even your own head. They're really nice recordings, and quite amazing through headphones, but still retain speaker playback qualities.

Do some research on Jecklin Disc and the OSS technique, HRTF, and baffled omnis

[Shadow_7]

You could just test your line in monitoring features.  Lots of devices other than mics let you run line out (CD players).

One quirk I'd be weary of on said tape machine.  Most of these originate from pre-cell phone days.  And are therefor NOT shielded from those signals.  I've been archiving my dads old reel to reel (playback only) to CDs.  3 hours per tape (1.5 hours per side).  I live in the country and still can't seem to keep the cell signal out.  Most times I end up letting it run at those wee hours to be safe.  And either turning off the cell phones in the house, or putting them several rooms / walls away.  2 tapes down, probably 20 more to go.

[rayr0683]

Hello,
              Im confused by your situation.  I have a standalone CD Recorder, and I have recorded/archived many of my Open Reel tapes to CD's and never had any kind of interference. I wouldn't even know what cell phone interference sounds like. I have gone from any of my Open Reel decks, to my Audio Research sp9 Preamp, and recorded tapes on the open reel decks to my Pioneer Standalone CDR, and no intereference at all. I only use economy priced Monster Cable RCA's out of Open Reel to CDR at the preamp, and there is perfect recordings. No noise at all, even if I have my cell phone nearby. And we have 3 cell phones in the house. I also live in a more country type area, in New Jersey, between Phila, PA and Atlantic City,NJ......no issues with noise.  Ray

You could just test your line in monitoring features.  Lots of devices other than mics let you run line out (CD players).

One quirk I'd be weary of on said tape machine.  Most of these originate from pre-cell phone days.  And are therefor NOT shielded from those signals.  I've been archiving my dads old reel to reel (playback only) to CDs.  3 hours per tape (1.5 hours per side).  I live in the country and still can't seem to keep the cell signal out.  Most times I end up letting it run at those wee hours to be safe.  And either turning off the cell phones in the house, or putting them several rooms / walls away.  2 tapes down, probably 20 more to go.

[rayr0683]

I will try to look more into what you are suggesting.  Did you remember what I meant, by the old Talk-Line that was attached to a built in Microphone on the Original Walkmans??  Those cheap Mic's really picked up alot of sounds, from all directions. I was impressed with that feature.

         As for your latest suggestions, would you then be suggesting different Microphones than before?  It seems alot of work, to set up foam baffles in an outdoor situation, between mic's.  If you ever saw the movie "BlowOut" with John Travolta, he played a Sound Man, right here in Philadelphia, and he recorded sounds for movies, such as night recording of Owls, and different animals....plus doors closing, etc...all kinds of sounds, that would later be inserted into Movies. In the Movie, he used a portable Nagra III, with a Long wand style Microphone, and he listened to the sounds through his headphones. In a smaller scale, this is what I was doing with that original Sanyo Walkman, but I was only hearing the sounds, in my headphones, since the Sanyo Walkman didn't Record. But my WM-D6C does record, and I have heard sounds through the headphones, with a cheapo mic. I had laying around, that went to an old, portable battery operated Reel to Reel machine, probably from the 1960's or so.  Not near the quality of the Mic's that you are recommending to me. This is the kind of things I like to record.Aside from the Concerts, which are few and far in between.  Thank You, Ray

In reading your post, I was struck by how you might enjoy omni mics, and some of the variations of the binaural techniques, which are essentially baffled omnidirectional microphone techniques. This is basically having the mics fairly close together and isolating them from each other with various baffles - some being artificial heads, others being foam disc baffles, or even your own head. They're really nice recordings, and quite amazing through headphones, but still retain speaker playback qualities.

Do some research on Jecklin Disc and the OSS technique, HRTF, and baffled omnis

[mfrench]

I'd suggesed Church Audio.
Chris builds mics in different pickup patterns, cardioid, and omnidirectional.
Cardioid is a hemispherical pickup pattern. Omnis are an orb, or 360º pickup pattern.
With cards, you depend on spacing, and microphone axis offsets to get stereo imaging.
With omnis, you get imaging via spacing or baffling. Baffling the mics keeps them closer together, which helps control time phasing issues of the signal arriving at two spaced mics at different times - the baffle adds coherency because the time delay is far less than with spaced mics.

These stereo patterns are why you don't want an inexpensive single point stereo mic, as the multiple patterns are so much more functional; and it makes the single point stereo mic very limiting.

You suggest that setting up a baffle might be difficult.
Not at all.
This is my own version of the Jecklin Disc / OSS technique (Optimum Stereo Signal). Around here, we call them j-discs, because they very from the extremely stringent parameters of the OSS technique.





At any rate,... this baffle is 8" diamater, made from a plastic embroidery hoop, scrap foam, and a few hardware store bits. The spreader bar is a piece of dowel and the mic clips are pencil erasers. Cheap, and extremely functional.

[spcyrfc]

^ which mic's are those? 

[mfrench]

dpa 4060's

[Church-Audio]

If you have any questions about my gear feel free to ask.. You have got some good advice here. Its always hard to know what to get lots of options but you are in the right place for good answers.

Chris

[stevetoney]

Sounds to me you're more interested in obtaining something with the talk-line feature...in which case it seems as if you're mostly concerned about how your Sony deck can be morphed to achieve that feature. 

If you want to use your recorder as a recorder of music and ambient sounds, then the suggestions being provided are the way to go because that's what the Sony deck is designed for.  If you want to use it as a talk-line device, then my suggestion would be to seek out something portable that's geared specifically around that feature.  I'm sure they're out there.  'TVEars' comes to mind, although I know that's not the specific product you're looking for.

The people on this website are experts in helping people to record music and ambient sounds...not so much on using devices such as TVEars.

My two cents worth.

[rayr0683]

Not exactly, I want to be able to record, the sounds as you say....but being able to monitor it via my Headphones, which the WM-D6C actually did, when I plugged the cheapo Mic into my Mic Input Jack, and listened through my headphones. I was just concerned if this would still work the same way, through my headphones, if I was using the Line Input on the WM-D6C instead of the Mic Input.  Since that seems to be the way I will end up recording with the Mics and Battery Box. Or Preamp.  Ray

      Even when I record on Open Reel, I still monitor the sound, via my headphones or speakers, not just by looking at the VU Meters. That is what I want to achieve. And I know that everyone here knows more than I do. I am not doubting anyone. Just wondering if I will have different results monitoring with the Line Input, instead of the Mic. Input.  Either way, its not a 3 head deck, but I still was able to monitor sound, via the Mic. Input and microphone. Thanks, Ray

Sounds to me you're more interested in obtaining something with the talk-line feature...in which case it seems as if you're mostly concerned about how your Sony deck can be morphed to achieve that feature. 

If you want to use your recorder as a recorder of music and ambient sounds, then the suggestions being provided are the way to go because that's what the Sony deck is designed for.  If you want to use it as a talk-line device, then my suggestion would be to seek out something portable that's geared specifically around that feature.  I'm sure they're out there.  'TVEars' comes to mind, although I know that's not the specific product you're looking for.

The people on this website are experts in helping people to record music and ambient sounds...not so much on using devices such as TVEars.

My two cents worth.

[splumer]

You could just test your line in monitoring features.  Lots of devices other than mics let you run line out (CD players).

One quirk I'd be weary of on said tape machine.  Most of these originate from pre-cell phone days.  And are therefor NOT shielded from those signals.  I've been archiving my dads old reel to reel (playback only) to CDs.  3 hours per tape (1.5 hours per side).  I live in the country and still can't seem to keep the cell signal out.  Most times I end up letting it run at those wee hours to be safe.  And either turning off the cell phones in the house, or putting them several rooms / walls away.  2 tapes down, probably 20 more to go.

That's really surprising. I've done pro audio for 10 years and when I got my first cell phone, back in '01 or so, it was a Nextel that caused all sorts of interference with any analog audio device, but since then, I have never had intereferece from any of my phones. Next to mixers, speakers, amps, anything the Nextel was near, I would get it. Even on my PC speakers. There would be a rhythmic popping sound about a second before the phone actually rang. This interference is why hospitals don't want you to use cell phones, but that seems to be gone now, mostly. The interference issue I have now is with Blackberries and wireless mics. Every time someone sends or receives a message on a BB, the wireless mic receiver will flip back and forth between antennas and get an audible pop. I was running sound for a group a few months ago that had three wireless mics and was getting popping every few seconds because right next to me was a table full of people and at one time, five of the eight were on their Blackberries. The client complained, and I pointed these people out to him. He asked the attendees to refrain from BB use during the meeting, and of course the people at the table kept right on using them.

I am so glad I am out of the hotel AV business.

BTW, my original rig was two Shure SM57's > Shure line matching transformers > Sony WM-D3. Worked great!

[rayr0683]

Hello,
      So you used the Shure Mic's with your Sony?  Those are dynamic mic's right?  Did you ever notice if you were able to monitor sound to be recorded through your headphones? Also, did you only use the Line In on your Sony? Or did you use the Mic Input?  I didn't know all of the Sony Pro Walkman Recorders had Line Inputs. I knew the D6, D6C, and TC-5 had Line In's....didn't know if the WM-D3 had Line Inputs.

               Thanks, Ray

You could just test your line in monitoring features.  Lots of devices other than mics let you run line out (CD players).

One quirk I'd be weary of on said tape machine.  Most of these originate from pre-cell phone days.  And are therefor NOT shielded from those signals.  I've been archiving my dads old reel to reel (playback only) to CDs.  3 hours per tape (1.5 hours per side).  I live in the country and still can't seem to keep the cell signal out.  Most times I end up letting it run at those wee hours to be safe.  And either turning off the cell phones in the house, or putting them several rooms / walls away.  2 tapes down, probably 20 more to go.

That's really surprising. I've done pro audio for 10 years and when I got my first cell phone, back in '01 or so, it was a Nextel that caused all sorts of interference with any analog audio device, but since then, I have never had intereferece from any of my phones. Next to mixers, speakers, amps, anything the Nextel was near, I would get it. Even on my PC speakers. There would be a rhythmic popping sound about a second before the phone actually rang. This interference is why hospitals don't want you to use cell phones, but that seems to be gone now, mostly. The interference issue I have now is with Blackberries and wireless mics. Every time someone sends or receives a message on a BB, the wireless mic receiver will flip back and forth between antennas and get an audible pop. I was running sound for a group a few months ago that had three wireless mics and was getting popping every few seconds because right next to me was a table full of people and at one time, five of the eight were on their Blackberries. The client complained, and I pointed these people out to him. He asked the attendees to refrain from BB use during the meeting, and of course the people at the table kept right on using them.

I am so glad I am out of the hotel AV business.

BTW, my original rig was two Shure SM57's > Shure line matching transformers > Sony WM-D3. Worked great!