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Author Topic: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10  (Read 15494 times)

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Offline AlphaDoug

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Hi,
I just got a new Sony PCM-M10 and I really like it so far.  I will be trying to tape a couple of outdoor concerts (folk and blugrass) later this summer, and I would like to have some suggestions on a "starter" rig.  I can't spend a whole lot, so I've been looking at matched pairs such as the Samson C02s, Behringer C-4s, Apex 185s, Equation Audio C.103s.  I don't need perfection.  Just cardioid condensors that will outperform the built ins.  I also have to buy a stand, wind sox, umbrella, and a battery powered phantom 48v box for the mics.  I think.  Any help at all to put a budget rig together would be much appreciated.

Offline Belexes

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Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline AlphaDoug

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 12:00:32 PM »
Thanks, but any other possible suggestions?  I'm kind of stuck with a budget of about $250 for mics and a battery powered phantom 48v power supply, or I need mics that will work with the built in 3v from the mic input.  Any suggestions?

Offline Tedley

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2010, 01:25:18 PM »
For less than $300, you can get a Church Audio preamp (CA-9100) and two sets of CA-14 mics, cardiod and omni. No need for phantom power and will give great results. See Team Church Audio thread to listen to recordings with this set-up.

Offline 12milluz

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2010, 04:31:52 PM »
Try these: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT-MB-4K
The Audio Technica MB4K. Get two of 'em for $150. Great mics, I use 'em in the studio and the taping rig. The best part, NO POWER SUPPLY NEEDED as they each can take a AA battery that supposedly lasts for up to 1200 hours. (they can still use 48v if you don't have batteries) Only downside, they have a switch. I suggest taping it down to avoid accidents. But for the price, it is a great SDC that works very well. Also- here: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT-MB-4K-C  For $4 more, get a 15ft cable too.
Audio-Technica AT853(c), Audio-Technica AT825>Naiant Littlebox>Sony PCM-M10

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2010, 05:08:10 PM »
Try these: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT-MB-4K
The Audio Technica MB4K. Get two of 'em for $150. Great mics

Is the bass any good? They are rated at 80-20,000 which, if true, would sound horribly thin in the bass.

Regardless, I think you'd get better sound & convenience following Tedley's advice. Don't let the small size and reasonable price of the CA-14's fool you. They are great mics.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline 12milluz

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2010, 05:30:26 PM »
Try these: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT-MB-4K
The Audio Technica MB4K. Get two of 'em for $150. Great mics

Is the bass any good? They are rated at 80-20,000 which, if true, would sound horribly thin in the bass.

Regardless, I think you'd get better sound & convenience following Tedley's advice. Don't let the small size and reasonable price of the CA-14's fool you. They are great mics.
Yeah, actually its pretty good. I was skeptically at first too, but its decent. I like them.
Audio-Technica AT853(c), Audio-Technica AT825>Naiant Littlebox>Sony PCM-M10

Offline setboy

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2010, 06:19:17 PM »
a pair of cheap naks, maybe?

Offline AlphaDoug

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 01:11:13 AM »
Where can you find Nakamichi mics these days?  Does anyone have any experience with the Apex 185s, or Karma Audio K-10s?

Offline setboy

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 07:28:34 AM »
Keep your eye on ebay and put a post in the yard sale would be the best places to start. I am not 100% sure they can be had for how much you are wanting to spend, but it can't hurt to look.

Offline Todd R

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 12:40:10 PM »
Exceeding your budget somewhat:

Get a Rolls PB224 battery-powered dual mic phantom power supply, which you should be able to get for about $75 shipped.

Then pick up a used pair of ADK SC-T mics, Studio Projects C4's, or Avantone CK1's -- all of which you should be able to get used in the yardsale for about $225 shipped.

As with the suggestion on the Naks, put up an ISO in the yardsale for these mics and see if anything turns up.

Also -- nickspicks has really been recommending the M-Audio Pulsars, which can be picked up new from ebay for as little as $240 a pair shipped.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline guysonic

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 01:40:29 PM »
Not cheap, but inexpensive for what you get is my DSM-6S/L best for pop/rock being directly powered (perfectly) by M10's mic powering feature.

More info on this with recording sample links in TS retail section at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0;all
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

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Offline Neilyboy

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 01:57:26 PM »
I would have been totally happy with my CAD e70's for a starter rig. I have a few show's up on archive that were recorded with the e70's.
Here is just a straight e70 pull of mine. http://www.archive.org/details/btf2009-10-03.cad.e70
otherwise keep your eyes peeled for a cheap ua5 in the YS. They pop up for ~100 bucks every now and then (jump on one when they do). Or (a bit above your budget) look into the at4041's I think they are very underrated here but perform very well for me. I have seen them pop up on ebay as a pair for 250-300 a pair. here is another pull of mine just straight up 4041's. http://www.archive.org/details/btf2009-08-21.at4041

I would not mind having my ua5 back and running it with my 4041's. I could probably be satisfied with that setup for quite some time but just like any hobby you get addicted and start to spend a bit more money than you originally thought you would. So keep in mind once you buy one rig be prepared to get 'hooked' and end up spending your tax return to fund a new recorder or pair of mic's haha..

neil
Mic's: AKG C214's, Line Audio CM3, AT4041SP, AT853 (C, SC, O), AT943 (C, H)
Pre's: Sound Devices MixPre 2
Rec's: Sony PCM-M10, Edirol R-44, Tascam DR60D MKii, Tascam DR70D x 2

Offline jbell

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2010, 01:14:52 PM »
I have just grabbed some new mics and will be selling my ADK SC-T mics with card and omni caps.  Let me know if you are interested. 
Mics: DPA ST4011ER & 4018ER | Neumann kk 184 (matched)> Nbob/PFA
Preamps: DPA MMA 6000 | Audioroot Femto
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-10 II | Sony PCM A10

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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2010, 02:16:26 PM »
Really .... what is wrong with the built-in mics on the Sony? 

What tiny bit of improvement will you get with hundreds of $$ of outboard mics, preamps, cables and batteries?  Especially compared to the gazzilion hassles of lugging and shlepping? 

You are recording the PA system, for corn's sake!  Isn't that why you bought a good portable recorder in the first place? 

Wasn't Michele Shocked's "Campfire" CD recorded with a portable Walkman cassette or a Minidisc?  Didn't Springsteen record "Nebraska" on a Teac Portastudio 144?

Lighten up, bothers and sisters.  Forget all this nonsense and enjoy the music!

Offline Belexes

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2010, 02:22:00 PM »
What tiny bit of improvement will you get with hundreds of $$ of outboard mics, preamps, cables and batteries?  Especially compared to the gazzilion hassles of lugging and shlepping?

Tiny improvement? Try major. I have paired up the M10 with a pre and various pairs of outboard mics that vastly improve anything the onboard mics could do.

Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline yltfan

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2010, 02:28:43 PM »
Another vote for Nak's.

I used to run Nak 300's straight into an iRiver (about $300 worth of gear). One time, I ran them on the same stand as someone with about $12,000 worth of gear. His recording sounded a little better, but just a little. Pairs have been popping up here occasionally, or post an ISO. They will run for a real long time on the internal mics (the only drawback is that the batteries cost $10-12 each, and can be a little hard to find), and you can get different caps for them, including the classic cp-4 shotgun caps.

In response to the above post about the built-in mics, I think the improvement you get just from getting the mics up above the crowd is worth the investment. I'll let other weigh in on the difference in the mics.
Mics: AT4051, AT4053, KM140, AKG C414, Beyerdynamic MEM86 guns, Nak cm300, AT853 4.7mod
Pre: V3, CA-9100
Recorders: Busman DR-680, iRivers, minidisc, jb3, and DAT

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Offline setboy

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2010, 02:35:06 PM »
Forget all this nonsense and enjoy the music!
Will do, but i will be enjoying it with out board mics! :)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2010, 02:48:09 PM »
Really .... what is wrong with the built-in mics on the Sony? 

What tiny bit of improvement will you get with hundreds of $$ of outboard mics, preamps, cables and batteries?  Especially compared to the gazzilion hassles of lugging and shlepping? 

You are recording the PA system, for corn's sake!  Isn't that why you bought a good portable recorder in the first place? 

Wasn't Michele Shocked's "Campfire" CD recorded with a portable Walkman cassette or a Minidisc?  Didn't Springsteen record "Nebraska" on a Teac Portastudio 144?

Lighten up, bothers and sisters.  Forget all this nonsense and enjoy the music!

I think the "reason" to have outboard mics is

A- placement is never EVER optimal with internal mics..

B- placement is never EVER optimal with internal mics..

C- The mics in most recorders overload way to easily why because most recorders are designed to do a "wide" variety of things besides record music. Like recording speech.. Two very different applications requiring very sensitive preamps and mic capsules that are prone to overload.

D- Because nothing makes me cringe more then a bad recording.

I might be biased since I make alot of this "external gear" but I have yet to hear to many recordings of "concerts" at concert spl levels that sounded great.

And most PA systems you talk about nowadays unless your in a chicken wing hut. Sound better then most peoples home stereos.

Chris
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Offline rastasean

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2010, 02:55:28 PM »
This sounds like me! I used to ask why we spend so much money on gear to record musicians and singers who use something as cheap as a mono sm57.

I don't want to be arrogant but I think after listening to many live recordings of music and seeing many live shows (that I taped or not) I am understanding MIXING better and better ;the sound engineer is the key to a good live audience recording AND soundboard recordings.

With that said, once you listen to many live recordings I think you'll be able to differentiate the difference between internal mics on a recorder and ones 6-10 feet up in the air. The m10 does have a standard tripod mount so you may be able to put it up on a lightstand and get it away from the crowd.

If carrying your gear isn't your thang, no sweat--carry someone else's.



Really .... what is wrong with the built-in mics on the Sony? 

What tiny bit of improvement will you get with hundreds of $$ of outboard mics, preamps, cables and batteries?  Especially compared to the gazzilion hassles of lugging and shlepping? 

You are recording the PA system, for corn's sake!  Isn't that why you bought a good portable recorder in the first place? 

Wasn't Michele Shocked's "Campfire" CD recorded with a portable Walkman cassette or a Minidisc?  Didn't Springsteen record "Nebraska" on a Teac Portastudio 144?

Lighten up, bothers and sisters.  Forget all this nonsense and enjoy the music!
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2010, 02:58:26 PM »
Tiny improvement? Try major. I have paired up the M10 with a pre and various pairs of outboard mics that vastly improve anything the onboard mics could do.

Sure.  Under ideal circumstances in a quiet room or studio.  This is outdoors, recording a mono PA system from many feet away through crowd noise and weather.

If the idea is to capture some folk or bluegrass music for later enjoyment at home, I don't think the extra hundreds of dollars and pounds of equipment and carrying bags and worry about theft is worth the hassle.  Or the slightly smoother treble.

Plus, you really don't get to enjoy the music while you are actually there.

If you are desperate for quality, plug into the PA board.  If you are a musician and get the artist's permission first, the quality will be much much better.  And you get to go to the party afterwards.

I still enjoy listening to concerts recorded on my old Sony portable cassette with the twisting level meter (the A-101??  Years before the Walkman.  Say 1973)

And, yes - I am a recording musician who has spent hours demoing mics and mic pres to get the best recording of my instrument.  And I have been the Sound Director of several folk festivals.

Unless I am doing field recordings in Yugoslavia or Georgia or capturing some guy who will not live to the next festival, good enough is good enough.

Offline rastasean

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2010, 03:02:23 PM »
Well then be happy. Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this? Go listen to all the bad recordings on LMA for me since I won't bother.

If it is a completely mono mix (i.e. just on PA speaker), I personally wouldn't bother taking out too much gear but who knows.

Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2010, 03:10:38 PM »
Tiny improvement? Try major. I have paired up the M10 with a pre and various pairs of outboard mics that vastly improve anything the onboard mics could do.

Sure.  Under ideal circumstances in a quiet room or studio.  This is outdoors, recording a mono PA system from many feet away through crowd noise and weather.

If the idea is to capture some folk or bluegrass music for later enjoyment at home, I don't think the extra hundreds of dollars and pounds of equipment and carrying bags and worry about theft is worth the hassle.  Or the slightly smoother treble.

Plus, you really don't get to enjoy the music while you are actually there.

If you are desperate for quality, plug into the PA board.  If you are a musician and get the artist's permission first, the quality will be much much better.  And you get to go to the party afterwards.

I still enjoy listening to concerts recorded on my old Sony portable cassette with the twisting level meter (the A-101??  Years before the Walkman.  Say 1973)

And, yes - I am a recording musician who has spent hours demoing mics and mic pres to get the best recording of my instrument.  And I have been the Sound Director of several folk festivals.

Unless I am doing field recordings in Yugoslavia or Georgia or capturing some guy who will not live to the next festival, good enough is good enough.

Sound is very subjective. Something I have learned mixing live shows for over 20 years. Including bluegrass. Rock, heavy metal, Jazz, Blues, Reggae. Classical and just about anything else that could be mixed and put through speakers. One thing I have learned is even the worst mic in a good position will sound vastly better then the best mic placed in the worst position. Can you produce good results with internal mics YES if they dont overload. But you will get better results in any live band recording situation with good external mics that are placed well.

Chris
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 03:12:51 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2010, 03:18:20 PM »
It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.

I have talked to several tapers - at my concerts and at other people's concerts.  No one has successfully explained what they do with all their recordings.  So far as I can tell, it is a way to avoid purchasing the artist's CD.  The times that all this recording (and labeling and filing and storing) has led to later purchases can be counted on my left hand.

Then again, lots of musicians tape each other, in order to learn new tunes and such.  In fact, I have a treasured memory of a very famous Irish flutist making an hour-long recording of tunes for a newbie flute-player .... in a fogged-up car, on a rainy day, on to a $60 Radio Snack portable using the built-in microphone.  And that lady took that tape and became a world-class Irish flutist.  She was my room-mate at the time and I watched it happen.  And got to clean the heads on her portable first so she could hear the music better!

Offline rastasean

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2010, 03:30:19 PM »
It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.

I have talked to several tapers - at my concerts and at other people's concerts.  No one has successfully explained what they do with all their recordings. So far as I can tell, it is a way to avoid purchasing the artist's CD.  The times that all this recording (and labeling and filing and storing) has led to later purchases can be counted on my left hand.

Then again, lots of musicians tape each other, in order to learn new tunes and such.  In fact, I have a treasured memory of a very famous Irish flutist making an hour-long recording of tunes for a newbie flute-player .... in a fogged-up car, on a rainy day, on to a $60 Radio Snack portable using the built-in microphone.  And that lady took that tape and became a world-class Irish flutist.  She was my room-mate at the time and I watched it happen.  And got to clean the heads on her portable first so she could hear the music better!

you seem like some kind of troll and it seems like people's opinions won't mind. That's fine, I'm not trying to tell you're wasting your time by listening to Irish Flute music.

What does "successfully explained" mean? Does it have to meet flow chart criteria that you assembled?
Have you ever heard of the live music archive? What in the hell do you think we do with the recordings? hold it random against the band until we receive a large amount of money? trade it for drugs?
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2010, 03:34:44 PM »
It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.

I have talked to several tapers - at my concerts and at other people's concerts.  No one has successfully explained what they do with all their recordings.  So far as I can tell, it is a way to avoid purchasing the artist's CD.  The times that all this recording (and labeling and filing and storing) has led to later purchases can be counted on my left hand.

Then again, lots of musicians tape each other, in order to learn new tunes and such.  In fact, I have a treasured memory of a very famous Irish flutist making an hour-long recording of tunes for a newbie flute-player .... in a fogged-up car, on a rainy day, on to a $60 Radio Snack portable using the built-in microphone.  And that lady took that tape and became a world-class Irish flutist.  She was my room-mate at the time and I watched it happen.  And got to clean the heads on her portable first so she could hear the music better!

I dont disagree that the music should be first.. But with this hobby that does not always happen for some of these guys its about the quality of the capture and being able to play it back at home or with friends at a later date and enjoy it. Enjoyment for most of these guys my self included is more then just the performance its the quality of the capture. I cant listen to anything that is substandard unless we are talking about old Blues 78's.... Then its all about the music.. AND NOT about the sound quality. But thankfully this is not 1922 and we dont have a gramophone for recording music we have some very high end gear that allows us when properly used to capture a performance for future generations of people that will appreciate all the hard work that went into the recording of the music they are listening to. There is always two sides to every coin.

I also STRONGLY disagree that the reason most people tape here is to "avoid" purchasing the artists music.. They have done more then that. They have purchased the concert tickets to go see them.. You want reality? The reality is that the music industry is dead and its dieing a slow and painful death.. There are no profits in being a record company anymore... Its now about making money with tours. Selling concert tickets... Because only a handful of select few artists ever break even on the record sales. Anyway trading shows back and forth is not what the problem is.. The problem is people *scum bags" that buy a cd and copy it and reproduce it for friends. That's what is killing the music industry.. There is no avoidance of buying cd's from the people here as a matter of fact if you asked most of them I bet they would say they have more cd's at home then live recordings.

I think maybe you should take the time to "learn" about this community a little more before you make silly comments like you did.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 03:42:48 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2010, 03:36:17 PM »
Regarding Message #11 by rastasean

Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this?

I'm not going to repeat myself, but let's look at the Original Post, shall we?

I just got a new Sony PCM-M10 and I really like it so far.  I will be trying to tape a couple of outdoor concerts (folk and blugrass) later this summer, and I would like to have some suggestions on a "starter" rig.

The Sony is a pretty damned good machine.  And it sounds (somewhat or noticeably) better than similarly priced units.  And the OP is going to outdoor folk and bluegrass concerts, so there won't be much of a chance to overload those terrible mic preamps.

Someone has convinced the OP that he needs hundreds of dollars of more crap or he won't get a decent recording to enjoy next February.

I am trying to convince him to save his money -- for this purpose.  All he needs is some kind of a stand and some kind of a case to keep the mud and rain off of it.  And to relax and enjoy the music.

My guess is that he will buy $360 of more gear ... and won't buy any of the artists' CDs.



And BTW - this is the first place I have ever heard that the Sony mics overload.  I was just about to order one, so someone set me straight on this before I do.

Offline bluelawn

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2010, 03:39:42 PM »
Regarding Message #11 by rastasean

Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this?

I'm not going to repeat myself, but let's look at the Original Post, shall we?

I just got a new Sony PCM-M10 and I really like it so far.  I will be trying to tape a couple of outdoor concerts (folk and blugrass) later this summer, and I would like to have some suggestions on a "starter" rig.

The Sony is a pretty damned good machine.  And it sounds (somewhat or noticeably) better than similarly priced units.  And the OP is going to outdoor folk and bluegrass concerts, so there won't be much of a chance to overload those terrible mic preamps.

Someone has convinced the OP that he needs hundreds of dollars of more crap or he won't get a decent recording to enjoy next February.

I am trying to convince him to save his money -- for this purpose.  All he needs is some kind of a stand and some kind of a case to keep the mud and rain off of it.  And to relax and enjoy the music.

My guess is that he will buy $360 of more gear ... and won't buy any of the artists' CDs.



And BTW - this is the first place I have ever heard that the Sony mics overload.  I was just about to order one, so someone set me straight on this before I do.



i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2010, 03:44:21 PM »
Regarding Message #11 by rastasean

Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this?

I'm not going to repeat myself, but let's look at the Original Post, shall we?

I just got a new Sony PCM-M10 and I really like it so far.  I will be trying to tape a couple of outdoor concerts (folk and blugrass) later this summer, and I would like to have some suggestions on a "starter" rig.

The Sony is a pretty damned good machine.  And it sounds (somewhat or noticeably) better than similarly priced units.  And the OP is going to outdoor folk and bluegrass concerts, so there won't be much of a chance to overload those terrible mic preamps.

Someone has convinced the OP that he needs hundreds of dollars of more crap or he won't get a decent recording to enjoy next February.

I am trying to convince him to save his money -- for this purpose.  All he needs is some kind of a stand and some kind of a case to keep the mud and rain off of it.  And to relax and enjoy the music.

My guess is that he will buy $360 of more gear ... and won't buy any of the artists' CDs.



And BTW - this is the first place I have ever heard that the Sony mics overload.  I was just about to order one, so someone set me straight on this before I do.



i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?

Thank you.... That was good....:)
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 03:48:44 PM »
OK Now you are starting to get nasty, rastasean.  And I don't need it.  I told you who I talked to, what they said, and under what circumstances.  Stick with that and don't extrapolate to other people and other situations.

If anyone else would like to describe when and how the built-in Sony mics overload .... before I buy one at the recommendation of a musician and musical instrument maker -- who has ears sensitive to any kind of distortion -- speak now or forever hold your peace.

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2010, 03:56:03 PM »
I am expecting a good technical description of mic overload on the Sony PCM-M10 portable from Church-Audio.  What where when and why.  Under what circumstances have you gotten it? What was the approximate dB of the sound source?  Etc.

Offline achalsey

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2010, 03:56:57 PM »
Why are you here?   ???

edit: post timed wrong with above post.

But seriously, why are you here defending internal mics on a hand held recorder demanding specs from people?  While many are guilty of this, I suggest Google.  It holds all the knowledge known to mankind and will tell you why and when the M10 will overload.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 04:02:38 PM by achalsey »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2010, 04:03:55 PM »
I am expecting a good technical description of mic overload on the Sony PCM-M10 portable from Church-Audio.  What where when and why.  Under what circumstances have you gotten it? What was the approximate dB of the sound source?  Etc.

The max spl of the mics on the Sony are rated at 123db.. We dont know if that was A weighted or if it was at 1k or if it was at 100hz.. It could be they will handle high spl at high frequencies or not.. I simply cant answer the question with out testing the mics for my self. But I can say that most recorders internal mics will overload at high spl because of the plain and simple fact they are trying to get sensitive mics and make them do things that a sensitive mic cant do that is handle high SPL. something has to give

You want High spl mics you have to reduce sensitivity reducing sensitivity means more noise

You want less noise you have to increase sensitivity but you then risk overload.

I know more then a few mic companies that spec's a mic out at 138 db max spl only when I measured it there was more then 10% at 114db at 1k. So specs dont tell the whole story.. Do I know for a fact that the sony will overload.. No and especially considering he wants to record bluegrass it should not be an issue.. DO I think your going to get good stereo separation from two mics placed like that on a recorder HELL NO. But again why am I wasting my time explaining things to you? You already seem to know more then all of us right?
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2010, 04:12:33 PM »
OK Now you are starting to get nasty, rastasean.  And I don't need it.

From my standpoint, it was you who came in here first copping the attitude.  You come into a discussion board dedicated to the taping of live music, and proceed to tell people what is acceptable in terms of price/performance of gear, strongly imply that anyone who hears things differently than you and makes different gear choices than you is wrong, pretty much state flat out that with our hobby we can't possibly be enjoying the music we are recording, and then all but accuse us of taking money out of the pockets of musicians.

And then you wonder why your reception here isn't so good?
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2010, 04:14:42 PM »
@ bluelawn

i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?

Depends on what job, n'est-ce pas?  To play outdoors for a Christmas "Welcome Santa" event, I would go with the Chinese guitar.  The same reason I played crappy toy plastic recorders at such events.

Maybe the proper comparison would be do I want a Rosewood D-28 or a Mahogany D-18.  And it would depend on what I was going to do with it.  Record or perform.  Or sit at home alone strumming.

Are you seriously comparing a stock Sony PCM-M10 to a $60 Chinese guitar, and are you claiming that an outboard mic and pre will transform a $60 Chinese guitar into a kilobuck Martin?  Why would you compare the PCM-M10 to a $30 Aiwa cassette?

You can do better than that.

You get the tool that does the job.  If the OP's M-10 can't do the job he wants done as he described it, than he will never be happy.

Offline 12milluz

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2010, 04:22:50 PM »
@ bluelawn

i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?

Depends on what job, n'est-ce pas?  To play outdoors for a Christmas "Welcome Santa" event, I would go with the Chinese guitar.  The same reason I played crappy toy plastic recorders at such events.

Maybe the proper comparison would be do I want a Rosewood D-28 or a Mahogany D-18.  And it would depend on what I was going to do with it.  Record or perform.  Or sit at home alone strumming.

Are you seriously comparing a stock Sony PCM-M10 to a $60 Chinese guitar, and are you claiming that an outboard mic and pre will transform a $60 Chinese guitar into a kilobuck Martin?  Why would you compare the PCM-M10 to a $30 Aiwa cassette?

You can do better than that.

You get the tool that does the job.  If the OP's M-10 can't do the job he wants done as he described it, than he will never be happy.
How is that true? You get what you pay for. The internals may be ok, but you can definitely improve on the quality of the recording with external gear. You make it seem like an all-in-one device is either perfect for everything or terrible. It's good for sometimes, and not so good for others. That is why there is other equipment to make it useful in those other situations...
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2010, 04:23:57 PM »
Honestly, achalsey, I'm not "defending" anything. 

I said that, in my opinion, the stock machine will do the job the OP wants to do.  Nothing more and nothing less.  If you don't agree, than calmly and simply explain why.  Maybe give some examples or some tech report.

And I am not "demanding" anything.  I expect that people who have already used this particular recorder might have something useful and important to say about its overload characteristics.  What with this being a site devoted to sharing information about recorders and such.

If you prefer to keep that information secret, then so be it.

When I need to be pointlessly insulted, I'm sure there are sites for that as well.

Offline 12milluz

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2010, 04:26:27 PM »
Dude, no offense intended at all, but I don't think anyone is trying to pointlessly insult you. From your posts, you give off the idea that you rather care about the concert while you're there than recording it. That's cool, its great. But not everyone else is like that. You can't expect to come into a forum like this and express your opinion and expect everyone else to agree or be wrong.
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Offline bluelawn

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2010, 04:29:37 PM »
i tried the internal mics on my M10, i would never use them if i had acess to a pre-amp & mics.
if the internal mics work for you, thats great. however i do see the M10 internals as the $60 guitar - will get the job done at a low price point.
do you really think you won't see a huge improvement using a high quality pre-amp & high quality microphones?
if can you not justify that price increase vs preformance increase so be it.
You don't even own this gear & your coming to a forum of people that do & have actual experiences with it.
but apparently you know better that the OP what he needs

please try having a little humillity or just go away
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2010, 04:52:53 PM »
Honestly, I can't keep up with all the personal attacks. 

I replied to the OP based on my experience as a performer, folk festival sound director, and long-time user of portable equipment (78, Edison cylinder, cassette, Dolby cassette, DAT, R-R, MD, and digital flash) as well as expensive mics and mic pres recording classical chamber concerts.  And have even done a published cable comparison test in my day, too.  And have several field recordings in the Library of Congress (who commended me for certain technical innovations I created for field recording Southern Shape-Note choirs).

I offered my opinion that hundreds of dollars of outboard stuff would offer little improvement to the OP for the OP's stated purpose.

If you disagree, try to disagree with the opinion - not my "attitude", my alleged "demands" or all the rest of that rot.

Do try to help the poor OP.  I seem to be the only one addressing his question.

****************

You know something, Church-Audio?  I was so pleased that you had answered my question (in language we could all understand) that I copied it and saved it, in order to give it a good ponder.

I was about to post a "thank you" when I got to the last part: DO I think your going to get good stereo separation from two mics placed like that on a recorder HELL NO. But again why am I wasting my time explaining things to you? You already seem to know more then all of us right?

The first is a topic I never once brought up ... and neither has anyone else.  Stereo separation?  Really????

The second is just too sad for words.

So thank you for everything before that.  It was lucid, and helpful, and answered exactly what I asked.  As I know the decibel level of the things I will be recording (thanks to my trusty Radio Snack decibel meter), I know that the Sony will do just what I need it to do and not overload.  I will be ordering one tomorrow.

Hey, y'all - be sure to buy your fave's CDs, tip your waitress, and share your water at them there bluegrass festivals!

Offline achalsey

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2010, 04:56:43 PM »
This thread seems to have gotten hijacked.

The Google suggestion was the link to info, I'm not really trying to keep anything secret, just putting it out there that there is a way to do some homework on your own.

The OP is asking about a starter rig (and an M10 alone does is not a "rig") so to continue....

If you're still looking, I was in the same boat and this info really helped me:  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132722.msg1740241#msg1740241

I went with the CA 14 package for mics and pre (cards, omnis and 9100 preamp).  The M10 is a great recorder so you've already got a piece to the puzzle.  As a beginner myself I don't have a lot of answers, but Google and searching through here will give great answers to stands, mounts, cables and whatnot.  I suggest definitely digesting info from here, look around and don't be afraid to ask questions (even if they happen end up like this did) people here are great.  Happy taping!

Offline setboy

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2010, 05:16:54 PM »
It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.


Just because you might not be able to make good/great recordings and have fun at the same time doesn't mean we are all like that. I enjoy music. I enjoy taping. I enjoy taping music. I can't figure out how putting up a set of mics, hitting record and checking levels every once in a while takes so much away from your enjoyment of the show.......i guess it could if you are one of those people that like to get completely trashed at shows, but people like that shouldn't be coming to shows anyways..................

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2010, 05:19:24 PM »
Honestly, I can't keep up with all the personal attacks. 

I replied to the OP based on my experience as a performer, folk festival sound director, and long-time user of portable equipment (78, Edison cylinder, cassette, Dolby cassette, DAT, R-R, MD, and digital flash) as well as expensive mics and mic pres recording classical chamber concerts.  And have even done a published cable comparison test in my day, too.  And have several field recordings in the Library of Congress (who commended me for certain technical innovations I created for field recording Southern Shape-Note choirs).

I offered my opinion that hundreds of dollars of outboard stuff would offer little improvement to the OP for the OP's stated purpose.

If you disagree, try to disagree with the opinion - not my "attitude", my alleged "demands" or all the rest of that rot.

Do try to help the poor OP.  I seem to be the only one addressing his question.

****************

You know something, Church-Audio?  I was so pleased that you had answered my question (in language we could all understand) that I copied it and saved it, in order to give it a good ponder.

I was about to post a "thank you" when I got to the last part: DO I think your going to get good stereo separation from two mics placed like that on a recorder HELL NO. But again why am I wasting my time explaining things to you? You already seem to know more then all of us right?

The first is a topic I never once brought up ... and neither has anyone else.  Stereo separation?  Really????

The second is just too sad for words.

So thank you for everything before that.  It was lucid, and helpful, and answered exactly what I asked.  As I know the decibel level of the things I will be recording (thanks to my trusty Radio Snack decibel meter), I know that the Sony will do just what I need it to do and not overload.  I will be ordering one tomorrow.

Hey, y'all - be sure to buy your fave's CDs, tip your waitress, and share your water at them there bluegrass festivals!

 I deleted some of my posts because who cares.... what I think I said what I said.. No need to get personal here.. I was having a bad day and posted some stupid pointless shit.. Man I dont know you from Adam.. I dont know what you know or dont know.. And I dont really care.. I stand behind what I said about the inputs of most recordings having issues with overload. Placement of mics in a sound field is everything to do with getting a great recording. That's just common sense why am I arguing? with it.
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2010, 05:23:35 PM »
@ 12millluz  message 35

You get what you pay for. The internals may be ok, but you can definitely improve on the quality of the recording with external gear.

Sure you can.  But my point was that in my opinion the extra cost and extra lugging and extra worry wasn't worth the improvement at an outdoor folk or bluegrass festival where you are using a mic to record the PA speakers

And that all that extra stuff and worry tends to take away from the experience of being there.

If you disagree, just say so.  That's what chat rooms and forums are for.



You make it seem like an all-in-one device is either perfect for everything or terrible. 

I said no such thing or implied any such thing.  And you know it.

I offered a value judgment balancing spending hundreds of dollars more, versus the extra hassle, versus the improvement in quality when recording PA speakers at folk and bluegrass festivals.

If you think that in your experience the value tips in a different direction, then say so, by all means. 

That's what chat rooms and forums are for.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2010, 05:25:55 PM »
Hmmm, deleted post.  Well, my Rat Shack meter is actually pretty good, within 1dB at 1kHz.  But I would expect they could vary as much as their capsules tend to, which like most small electrets is probably +/-2dB.  But the meter has a handy calibration screw to compensate for that.  I never had to bother with that though, it came from the factory that close.

Also, coincident stereo mic techniques do exist, and some people are even fans of them.  Of course I prefer split omnis myself . . .

 The problem with the rat shack meter is 1 the housing for the capsule 2 the capsule it self is NOT flat so any real measurements made with it are guesses.. The last one I had here to calibrate was off by 10db :) That was an unmolested meter from a theater that was using it to "police" DB limits... If you have a peek in your meters frequency response of 5 db at 2.5k due to the cheap plastic housing they put around the capsule. Then your meter is going to be off by 5 db at 2.5k.. Meters need to be FLAT to be inaccurate. Unless there is some DSP inside the meter I am not aware of to correct the frequency response the meter is hardly flat from 20hz to 20khz... More like + - 10 db from 200hz to 20khz. So if we were just measuring 1k it would be very useful for measuring db levels. :) FYI

these are some typical correction curves being posted on the internet not sure if they are 100% dead acurate but they seem to jive with some of my tests.

20k = 11.2
16k = 8.5
12.5k =6.2
10k = 4.4
8k = 3
6.3k =2
5k = 1.3
4k=0.8
3150 = 0.5
2500 = 0.3
2000 = 0.2
1600 = 0.1
1250-200 = flat
160 = 0.1
125 = 0.2
100 = 0.3
80 = 0.5
63 = 0.8
50 = 1.3
40 = 2
31.5 = 3
25 = 5
20 = 7.1
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:38:46 PM by Church-Audio »
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Offline setboy

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2010, 05:30:10 PM »
What is the internal noise on this sony thing? that would be my biggest reason to use or not use it.


Edit: People lets get this back on topic by helping this person out on what he should tape with. A lot has been said that really does not help some one at all in deciding what to buy.  Eliezer has voiced his thoughts other have done the same. Lets keep this out of the you're right i'm wrong kind of BS.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:32:48 PM by setboy »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2010, 05:57:09 PM »
Mine peaks a bit higher, more like 5kHz, which makes sense given the size of the case.  But that doesn't matter for measuring volume of a show; mics don't overload because the PA is pushing 5kHz too loud.  People would run screaming from a show were that the case.

Your absolutely right but if you dont compensate for the 5db spike at 5k then you have an issue with your accuracy. Because you could very easily have a 5k spike at a like show that pushes the meter average up to mess with the accuracy. You know its not bad for what it is.. I am not saying its junk.. Funny now you can pick up a good meter like a Simpson on eBay for dirt cheap with a calibrator.

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Offline mloewen

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2010, 06:02:40 PM »
Back on topic I am using a Pcm 10 I put together a rig on the cheap. I got Church Audio 14s and a 9100 pre. For a stand I got one of those painters poles and a Satellite dish tripod to hold it up. I made windscreens out of Faux fur I got as a sample from distincive fabrics . I just got a little umbrella made to clamp on a baby stroller for 10 bucks (even swivels to different angles.) I am looking foward to getting a decent tripod but will get some good use out of my cheap rig for now.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2010, 06:03:58 PM »
Back on topic I am using a Pcm 10 I put together a rig on the cheap. I got Church Audio 14s and a 9100 pre. For a stand I got one of those painters poles and a Satellite dish tripod to hold it up. I made windscreens out of Faux fur I got as a sample from distincive fabrics . I just got a little umbrella made to clamp on a baby stroller for 10 bucks (even swivels to different angles.) I am looking foward to getting a decent tripod but will get some good use out of my cheap rig for now.

Hey where do you get that fake fur? I want to get some to offer it as an option for my mics...

Chris
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2010, 06:05:01 PM »
Boy howdy -- are they piling up!  :o

@12milluz / Reply #37
 
From your posts, you give off the idea that you rather care about the concert while you're there than recording it. That's cool, its great. But not everyone else is like that. You can't expect to come into a forum like this and express your opinion and expect everyone else to agree or be wrong.

I expect to be given room to express my opinion and then have other people offer theirs without acting like children.  Doesn't seem to be an out of the ordinary expectation.

You never saw the word "wrong" come out of my keyboard.  Did you.  :-\


@bluelawn / Reply #38

So what you are saying is that the internal mics and pres on your M10 are as crappy as a $60 guitar?  No better than "get the job done" quality?  That to make a decent recording I really will see a huge improvement using a high quality pre-amp & high quality microphones?

This is important to me because I intended to buy one tomorrow to do some field recordings of musicians.  Having settled the overload issue, I want to double check with a real user of the Sony - not some phony reviewer on the Net.

As I say, a musician and instrument-maker recommended it.  And I trust his ears (if not his knowledge of high fidelity, as such).

And that is why I cam to this chat about the very model I am looking at.  If you really think that, then I may have to hold back.  What do you think of the $600 Sonys and Marantzes?


@Church-Audio

Placement of mics in a sound field is everything to do with getting a great recording. That's just common sense.


Truer words ne'er spoken.


@mshilarious

Split omnis (Schoeps) is what WGBH Radio switched to when we were doing live broadcasts of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.  i can't remember what they replaced, but the old cardioids were around $1200 each in 1974.  We got many calls commenting on the improved clarity.  From a sticker audience.  { Hell -- we had a VP at AR who played record company master tapes right into the transmitter to avoid all broadcast processing!  And WGBH stands for Gret Blue Hills, so he had to drive a 70-pound R-R, cables, tapes, etc. up and down 40 miles of hills to do this every week.  Audience loved it. }

In a pinch I once made a broadcast recording of a choir using two RE-635 omni interview mics spaced about 8 feet apart and 8 feet back.  Sounded great.  Lots of complements from the choir, too!


Hey, y'all - be sure to buy your fave's CDs, tip your waitress, and share your water at them there bluegrass festivals!

Offline bluelawn

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2010, 06:47:24 PM »
@bluelawn / Reply #38

So what you are saying is that the internal mics and pres on your M10 are as crappy as a $60 guitar?  No better than "get the job done" quality?  That to make a decent recording I really will see a huge improvement using a high quality pre-amp & high quality microphones?

This is important to me because I intended to buy one tomorrow to do some field recordings of musicians.  Having settled the overload issue, I want to double check with a real user of the Sony - not some phony reviewer on the Net.

As I say, a musician and instrument-maker recommended it.  And I trust his ears (if not his knowledge of high fidelity, as such).

And that is why I cam to this chat about the very model I am looking at.  If you really think that, then I may have to hold back.  What do you think of the $600 Sonys and Marantzes?


absolutely,
i don't think any internal mic on a hand-held will ever be able to compete with a proper pair of phantom powered mics.
"getting the job done" is a very slippery slope on a hobbyist board of any type.
one mans trash is an-others treasure
i deleted the files i used as my comparison unfortunately. 
but you don't need to spend alot to go this route
good luck in your recording
Milab VM-44 Links > Naiant Littlebox > Sony PCM-M10
Audio-Technica 4041s > Sound Devices MixPre > Tascam DR-05

http://phishhook.com/lists/bluelawn

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Offline achalsey

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2010, 06:54:26 PM »
Again, read the OP topic, this is not about the M10, he has an M10 and is looking for other gear.

(insert new thread here)

Offline acidjack

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2010, 06:59:28 PM »
^^^^ QFT, setboy and achalsey.

I find the direction this has gone - and most threads that are about internal mics - idiotic.  This is a hobbyist board - for beginners and more experienced folks.  Obviously, internal mics can record sound - it says so on the package.  Opinions vary as to how good the sound of various internal mics is.  But on a hobbyist board, generally, I think the expectation of those seeking advice is how to do something, well, like a hobbyist, rather than just a completely casual user. 

I have taken many vacation and other photos that provided me - a non-hobbyist camera-wise - plenty of enjoyment, on a plain old Canon portable.  Some of them might even be "as good" as photos taken on much more expensive cameras, at least to the casual user's eye.  But I would think it would be pointless, if not insulting, for me to go on a photographic hobbyist board and ask, "I'm a beginner, how do I take great photos" and then assume that the right answer is, "get a cheap all-in-one camera from Best Buy and go to it."  Why bother asking?

The point being, as I said, everyone knows that internal mics on recorders can recording something, some of them better than others.  But you don't need the advice of relatively serious hobbyists to tell you that.  And if the question simply is, "Can I record concerts using internal mics?" the answer will always be, "Yes" - just like a cheap Canon can take photos (sometimes even really good ones).   

If you think the stock internal microphones on a Sony M10 are as good as even most brands of inexpensive microphone that people talk about on here, then you probably aren't that interested in this as a hobby. It doesn't make you a bad person, or not a real fan of music, or an idiot, or any other negative thing.  IMHO, it does mean you're not a "taper", as looked at on this board.  Just like taking a nice photo now and again on my cheap camera doesn't make me a "photographer."
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline ehren

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2010, 07:03:59 PM »
Plus, you really don't get to enjoy the music while you are actually there.

 :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack:

Offline Tedley

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2010, 08:21:49 PM »
That was quite a squall that blew through. I wonder if the OP is still following this thread. If so, I still stick by my recommendation on page 1, Church-Audio package, which meets his stated requirements. Still waiting for my mics, but made the recommendation of them by listening to recordings of them listed on this board. I will mostly tape unamplified acoustic music in sessions and small venues. Hell, I even play Irish flute as well. Though the M-10 will not overload at the levels I will record, being able to place mics in more optimal positions and having the ability to share the results with fellow musicians makes the additional outlay worthwhile, IMHO. I am a musician just re-entering taping as a hobby, but am finding gear lust to be something I am not immune to. I just did some taping, using borrowed gear, and the musicians were happy for the copy of what came down. I got to play with a SD 744. Now that is something to lust after.

Offline landshark

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2010, 05:10:27 PM »
To the OP - I also have the PCM-M10, recently acquired.  In testing it out, I've used the internal mics as well as a CChurch 9100 preamp and both the CA14's and CA omnis.  My comments on both:

The Sony internals are surprisingly good.  I'd guess they beat out most of the internal mics out there.  In situations where I'm grabbing and going and don't want additional gear or have no ability to use a stand or clamp, it's pretty good on it's own.  I'd say similar to my MicroTrak, battery box, and Sound Devices omnis.  Maybe a little less crisp on the high end.  The big drawbacks are the omnis at shirt pocket level pick up any surrounding chatter.  I don't know about you, but at festivals and concerts there seem to frequently be those folks who decide now's the time to regurgitate every stray thought and experience with their friends, in complete disregard of everyone around them.  With the omnis at body height, you're probably going to get more of that than you like.  Just the ability to put a pair of omnis at any distance above that chatter will add significantly to your ultimate result.  Or getting the M10 above the fray.

I can hear a significant difference, however, when using the outboard preamp, both with the omnis and cards.  SPL and overload could be a problem in some venues, but probably not in the one you mention.  I did hear much clearer sound with the preamp and outboard mics (bass that was "punchier", highs that were "crisper"), so I think you'd be pleased with those as an option.  I like my Church-Audio gear and think it's off the charts in terms of "bang for buck".  If you've got $200 or $250 to spend, that's the best place to spend it, in my opinion.  Get an inexpensive stand, some wire spreaders, and drape split Church Audio omnis at 10' or more above the crowd and you'll probably get a recording you look back on year after year and enjoy.  Just don't set up anywhere near the beer tent <grin>.



To Eliezer - It may not have been your intent, but the language you chose in your posts (referring to others as behaving like children, denigrating their decisions, demanding specific responses, suggesting that tapers are just looking to screw over artists and not buy CDs) is pretty offensive to the community who posts here.  You are entitled to say what you like, but if you offend your audience, you shouldn't be surprised if they return the favor. 

As to a convincing reason why we tape or what we do with our tapes, I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for myself.  Part of it is the creative process of trying to achieve the highest quality and best sound I can - hearing a good pull just once gives me a feeling of accomplishment, because it's not easy.  I think I would enjoy being an audio engineer for the same reason.  It's usually only one in five recordings that I truly like, and will be listened to again, occasionally.  The other part is capturing a moment when a performer performs something unique in their show, such as a song that's NOT on a CD )or a cover), a variation of a studio cut, or a truly scintillating performance.  Those are the real gems.  To paraphrase a quote someone used to have on their signature here, referring I think to a Miles Davis live performance made into an album, "We taped it in case it didn't happen again.  And it hasn't." 

As far as screwing over the artists, the artists I tape probably make more off the ticket I buy to their show than any CD I might buy, and if I like them enough to tape them I probably have all their CDs already.  I also only tape artists who allow it, so clearly they agree.  I do agree with you that the scumbags who take traded songs, burn them to CD and sell them on ebay and elsewhere are scum, but it's the act of selling, not the act of taping that's reprehensible.

I think the majority here are driven by similar considerations, so please consider that before denigrating what we enjoy doing by the words you use to describe it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:13:22 PM by landshark »
AKG 461's / 463's OR Senn MKH 8040's > MR1000 (Busman mod) or Shure FP24 (aka MixPre) > MR1 (open)
Coresounds Binaurals > CChurch 9100 > MR1 OR AKG CK1x/2x/3x > Deneke P20 > MR1 (low profile)

Offline rjp

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2010, 11:14:37 PM »
As far as screwing over the artists, the artists I tape probably make more off the ticket I buy to their show than any CD I might buy, and if I like them enough to tape them I probably have all their CDs already.

Indeed, that homemade recording could cost more than the artist's entire discography. Let's see:

  • Cost of ticket
  • Cost of transportation to and from the venue
  • Cost of incidentals (drinks, parking, lodging, etc.)
  • Amortized cost of recording equipment
  • Time spent postprocessing

"Welcome to Taperssection, kiss your wallet goodbye."  ;D
Mics: AKG Perception 170, Naiant X-X, Sound Professionals SP-TFB-2
Preamps: Naiant Littlebox
Recorders: Olympus LS-10
Interfaces: Focusrite Saffire Pro 14, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2010, 06:19:46 PM »
I said that, in my opinion, the stock machine will do the job the OP wants to do.  Nothing more and nothing less.  If you don't agree, than calmly and simply explain why.  Maybe give some examples or some tech report.

When I need to be pointlessly insulted, I'm sure there are sites for that as well.

The stock machine sounds good to me and according to guysonic it is better than most at resisting overloads  (I think he said up to about 124 dB). It's ease a of use may make you happy and you may be very satisfied with the sound. It may be great when used like a point & shoot camera. But for a serious recordist who will be playing the recordings again and again in the future, basically all of us agree that it will sound way better with better external mics that you can separate and get up in there air. There is no use arguing about it, you really have to try it both ways and hear it for yourself. You don't have to spend a fortune either. Chruch Audio gear will make a dramatic improvement.

As to feeling you were insulted, if you want to be a member here, I wouldn't imply that you think we are ripping off artists with our taping activities. I agree 100% with landshark. Your posts were bound to offend many of us any attract insults.

To Eliezer - It may not have been your intent, but the language you chose in your posts (referring to others as behaving like children, denigrating their decisions, demanding specific responses, suggesting that tapers are just looking to screw over artists and not buy CDs) is pretty offensive to the community who posts here.  You are entitled to say what you like, but if you offend your audience, you shouldn't be surprised if they return the favor. 

AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline AlphaDoug

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2010, 12:09:21 PM »
Holy Geez!  I hadn't been back on here for a while since I thought the thread died out!  Thanks to all of your who gave me your considered responses.  And just to clarify a few things:  I now have had a little experience with my new M10.  The other night I recorded a set at an outdoor Folk/Bluegrass festival.  I set the mic sensitivity on low, set recording on Manual and the level to just under 5.0 and turned the limiter on.  This festival was in a large mylar festival tent, so there was some "bounce" from the overhead tent.  And the sound stack was not awesome.  I held the recorder on my knee, and I was about 15 or 20 feet back from the stage in the third row or so, but we were in folding chairs, spaced out pretty good.  The result:  I was amazed at just how good this thing is, even with the built in mics and sub-optimal placement.  To address one of the issues that Eliezer brought up, the biggest issue with the recording was placement.  The guy in front of me had a cooler between he and his wife, and he kept reaching in to pull a bottle out of the ice and slam the lid back on.  Dutifully recorded by the M10!  Also, "chatters" around an behind me, dutifully recorded.  I like "some" ambient noise, but not that much.  I could have put the recorder up on a tall stand, but then I couldn't monitor the levels.  Anyway, even with all of that, I was impressed a lot.  Playing the session back on my large stereo set up at home was also awesome! 

To address a couple of comments made since I was here last.  The reason I asked on here is that, even with a lot of Google research and reading articles, I really wanted to get the opinions of experienced tapers before I went off half cocked and bought a bunch of stuff I didn't need.  Also, I am very aware that I actually don't want to get to the point that I don't enjoy the concerts I go to while constantly checking my recording gear.  So I will probably be more of a set it and forget it type of taper in the long run.  Next, the reason I want to tape, is that most of these concerts have an ambience that you never get on a studio recorded CD.  I resent the implication that I would tape to rip off a struggling artist.  I try very hard to buy CDs or at least download CDs from sites that pay the artists better than the distributor (CD Baby comes to mind).  Musicians have added so much to my long and twisted existence, and I try to pay them back as much as possible.  So I'm just trying to preserve some memories and get a different recording than I might have otherwise. 

As soon as I can figure out how to post some tracks on here, I will put up a couple of songs from the festival I was just at.  The group was a quickly assemble group of instructors from the Colorado Roots Music Camp to be held this next week.  Violin: Ky'lin Yong, Bass: Cary Black, Guitar & Vocals: Raul Reynoso, Guitar & Vocals: Syd Smith, Guitar, Mandola & Vocals: Charlie Hall. 

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions!

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2010, 05:10:44 PM »
The built in mics do sound good if you're not comparing them to recordings made with good externals like Church Audio gear. You will probably hear more ambiance with separated externals also.

I actually find it easier to run the recorder at concerts using externals. Hide the externals in a Kangol and I can check my levels if the volume goes up a lot without worrying about moving the mics. Plus I don't have to hold the M10 in my hand (which probably gets a bit better results than  having the internal mics sticking out of your shirt pocket, though you would have to hold tightly and not reposition your hands to avoid handling noise).
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

 

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