Topic: Suggestions for recording electric guitar

[aysvideo]

The other night I taped a small jazz group with a sax, cello, drums and electric guitar in a small performance space.  I had 4 mics, (Nevaton MC-49 cards), so I figured I'd close mic everyone.  I record mostly small, acoustic jazz ensembles, and I've been getting great results lately, settting individual mics close to the performers, recording into an Edirol R44, and doing a stereo mixdown at home.  Anyway, I haven't run into an electric guitarist yet in any of the shows I've recorded, so I figured I'd put my mic in front of his amp speaker.  Bad move.  The other 3 performers sounded great on their individual mics, but the guitar sounded very muddled and crackly, and nothing like he sounded from my seat in the room.  The guy was playing some crazy stuff, with a lot of effects pedals, etc., so we're not talking about your typical Pat Metheny or Wes Montgomery styyle of electric guitar work.  The overall mix, when he was playing quietly, sounded OK at times, but when he started wailing, things started getting out of control.  Seems like I should have set his mic somewhere in front of him, away from the amp, but I'm open to suggestions.  Thanks. 

[dogmusic]

The other night I taped a small jazz group with a sax, cello, drums and electric guitar in a small performance space.  I had 4 mics, (Nevaton MC-49 cards), so I figured I'd close mic everyone.  I record mostly small, acoustic jazz ensembles, and I've been getting great results lately, settting individual mics close to the performers, recording into an Edirol R44, and doing a stereo mixdown at home.  Anyway, I haven't run into an electric guitarist yet in any of the shows I've recorded, so I figured I'd put my mic in front of his amp speaker.  Bad move.  The other 3 performers sounded great on their individual mics, but the guitar sounded very muddled and crackly, and nothing like he sounded from my seat in the room.  The guy was playing some crazy stuff, with a lot of effects pedals, etc., so we're not talking about your typical Pat Metheny or Wes Montgomery styyle of electric guitar work.  The overall mix, when he was playing quietly, sounded OK at times, but when he started wailing, things started getting out of control.  Seems like I should have set his mic somewhere in front of him, away from the amp, but I'm open to suggestions.  Thanks.

Best luck I've had with recording guitar amps is with dynamic mics -- SM57 or 58, mostly -- parked at an angle to the front of the speaker, about 2-4 inches from the grill cloth.

[SmokinJoe]

I think the mud comes from the proximity effect associated with cards.

Ping Charlie Miller... Steve Kimock was micing his cab with a 414 with great results, and whatever technique the use might work for you.

[notlance]

"Muddled and crackly" when the guitar plays loud sound like maybe some kind of overload.  The Nevaton MC-49 can take 140 dB for 0.5% THD, so I doubt the mics are overloading.  The MC-49 can put out either 10 or 20 mV/Pa, so if you have the mic set for the higher output maybe the mic pre-amps are overloading?  One other possibility is the MC-49 draws a lot of current for a mic (10 mA) so 4 of them would exceed the phantom power capabilities of the R44, which is spec'ed at 8 mA per 1 channel and 20 mA total all 4 channels.  If the mics are current starved it might reduce their overload point so that when the guitar player starts to wale his mic overloads.  But now I'm just guessing.

[aysvideo]

Thanks everybody.  I think I was overreacting a little.  I listened again and it turns out the muddiness and crackling I described was actually the guitarist using his effects pedals, so the show actually sounded better than I expected.  What disappointed me was that I had everyone mic'd so closely, the band didn't really have as large a sound on my recording as what I heard in the room that night. 

I suspect at times I'm getting too focused on bringing the mic's really close to the musicians, and ending up with very clean, but sterile sound, rather than setting the mic's back a little to capture the feel of the room.  Does that make sense?  I haven't been doing this a long time and it's strictly a hobby, so each time I record seems to be a new learning experience. 

But as far as recording an electric guitar is concerned, if anyone has any techniques they can share, I'd love to hear them.  Thanks.

[SmokinJoe]

I suspect at times I'm getting too focused on bringing the mic's really close to the musicians, and ending up with very clean, but sterile sound, rather than setting the mic's back a little to capture the feel of the room.  Does that make sense?  I haven't been doing this a long time and it's strictly a hobby, so each time I record seems to be a new learning experience. 

Think about a typical mic'ed rock band... the mics are just about touching all the instruments.  Much of the reason for that is to reduce bleed.  And if you get that sbd feed, it's sterile as hell.  I think given 4 channels you are doing the best you can.  You could try running a stereo pair from an optimum location (stage lip, etc) and 2 close mics on the instruments that are weakly represented?  That would give you a balance of clarity and feel?

There are no right answers, and yes, I too learn something new every show.

[dogmusic]

But as far as recording an electric guitar is concerned, if anyone has any techniques they can share, I'd love to hear them.  Thanks.

Best luck I've had with recording guitar amps is with dynamic mics -- SM57 or 58, mostly -- parked at an angle to the front of the speaker, about 2-4 inches from the grill cloth.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

[dogmusic]

Right on!

[Gutbucket]

Compared to other instruments, electric guitar cabinets project particularly well, probably one of the most directional sound sources in a jazz setup other than horns.  I often place mics for other instruments that need the proximity, especially piano and bass, things like your cello, drums, etc. and leave the guitar farther off but still more or less in direct view from the mics.  For a monthly jazz trio gig I record without a PA, the stage setup is guitar stage right, drums center, and bass left.  I set up on-stage well away from the guitar side, close to the bass, with a clear but slightly more distant line to the snare (on the bass side of the kit) and a clear and direct but much but more distant line to the guitar amp.  That balances all the instrument volumes in both volume, timbre and their apparent reverberant ambient distance in a stereo imaging sense.

Part of the fun is figuring out a good placement in a tough situation and getting good clarity from some elements while allowing others be more distant sounding and ambient.  Often piano falls into that 'let it be more distant and reverberant' category just by it's accoustic nature, sometimes the choice of what to place 'up front and clear' and what to let receed to a more 'reverberant and ambient' position farther in back is simply a practical stage arrangement thing, othertimes it's influenced by the style of music or the importance of each player. It can be tricky, but the rewarding part is that when I get it right, the resulting layering of parts is often one of my favorite aspects of those recordings- some things intimate and up close, others more distant, reverberant and lush - and that depth and layering of parts is something I very rarely hear on commecial recordings, even good live ones.  It's one of my favorite things.

[dogmusic]

I like that too sometimes. It's like figuring out different angles when you're taking a photograph. You don't necessarily want everything to be middle distance.

One time this girl I knew sent me a cassette of "Clear Spot" by Captain Beefheart. It was the first time I'd ever heard it and I thought it was an amazing mix. What I didn't know is that she had only recorded off one channel of her stereo to make a mono tape. The distant sound of the other channel was fantastic.