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Poll

What do you think?

I prefer source A, and I think source A is the DPA 4023
4 (28.6%)
I prefer source A, and I think source A is the beyerdynamic CK930
1 (7.1%)
I prefer source B, and I think source B is the DPA 4023
7 (50%)
I prefer source B, and I think source B is the beyerdynamic CK930
2 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Author Topic: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison  (Read 14368 times)

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Offline JasonSobel

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DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« on: June 08, 2011, 05:36:05 PM »
Last night at Great Woods, Lenny and I were running on the same stand (both clamped to Greg B. - big thanks for letting us run dead center :) ).
Here's a crappy picture from my cell phone.

That's Greg's AKG 393's up top, my beyerdynamic CK930 in the middle, and Lenny's DPA 4023 on the bottom.

As you can see, we were basically running the same pattern, and just a few vertical inches apart.
Lenny's gear chain was:
DPA 4023 > Sonosax SX-M2 > Sound Devices 722 (24/96)

My gear chain was:
beyerdynamic CK930 > Sonosax SX-M2 > Marantz PMD-661 w/ "Oade Concert Mod" (@ 24 bit / 96 kHz)

The key here, is that this is an informal comparison, because I thought it would be fun to do so.
Yes, our mic patterns might not have been absolutely identical.  and yes, I was running an oade concert mod PMD-661, while Lenny was using his 722.

but I figured, hey, we're basically running from the same spot, with the same config, and with the same pre-amp.  So why not post this as a fun comparison.

I took one song (Halley's Comet) from each of our recordings.
Lenny's is available here - http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=545533
mine is available here - http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=545514

First, I used SoX to make adjust the levels of both recordings, such that the average RMS level of each recording was identical.
then I went into Samplitude, and I created a 2 minute segment where I alternated sources every 20 seconds.

See table below for details on file ABABAB.flac.  Download file ABABAB.flac here: http://iput.it/078d43

from.......to...........source.......
00:0000:20Source A
00:2000:40Source B
00:4001:00Source A
01:0001:20Source B
01:2001:40Source A
01:4002:00Source B

For reference, you can also download the full song from each source:
source A (after RMS-balancing) - http://iput.it/5dca82
source B (after RMS-balancing) - http://iput.it/e72830
source A (original file from torrent linked above) - http://iput.it/d862cd
source B (original file from torrent linked above) - http://iput.it/2c429b

of course, you could cheat this comp, and download both torrents from bt.etree.org, and figure out which one is source A and source B.  but where's the fun in that? (answer: no fun).

so, please, listen, vote, post your thoughts, etc, etc...


Offline page

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 06:42:30 PM »

For reference, you can also download the full song from each source:
source A (after RMS-balancing) - http://iput.it/5dca82
source B (after RMS-balancing) - http://iput.it/e72830


yay!

I find it easier to pull them into audacity, line them up and flip back and forth via solo/mute.
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Offline rastasean

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 08:42:56 PM »
the iput.it is awesome!
The change is noticeable but I'm not totally sure which I prefer. Are you satisfied with the results it provided?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 02:47:55 PM by rastasean »
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 09:29:32 PM »
My ears really like source "B"...really nice open sound....again everyone hears different...."A" isn't bad but not as nice as "B"....

nice comp....  I am going to have to look at the pattern pickups to see if there is any difference..."B" seems to have a wider pattern pick up....almost sub card compared to the "A" source.

Was the angle at which the mic's placed the same....ie...90 degrees...?  nevermind re-read your post.  everything was basically the same...minus the mics and the recorders. :P
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 11:33:46 PM »
My ears really like source "B"...really nice open sound....again everyone hears different...."A" isn't bad but not as nice as "B"....

nice comp....  I am going to have to look at the pattern pickups to see if there is any difference..."B" seems to have a wider pattern pick up....almost sub card compared to the "A" source.

Was the angle at which the mic's placed the same....ie...90 degrees...?  nevermind re-read your post.  everything was basically the same...minus the mics and the recorders. :P

Fastest difference is in the bass response. A has more in the right channel (bad aim at the stack?) and more overall, while B is much more balanced. Comparatively, A has less spacial depth or detail then B which I get the sense that I'm listening to something in the distance where as A sounds less "distant speaker" like but just as distant colored (tonal balance of metallic reflection-type sound). In this instance, B gets the nod.

Now, I'd already heard the beyer/sax combo, and I had heard RnR>Mango from this beyer/sax source earlier today so I know which is which.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

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Offline lastubbe

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 08:19:12 PM »
Tried to respond on the mobile device but was having problems...

Haven't had a chance to check this out yet but I will soon.  Thanks to Jason for doing this.  Wish we did this more often.  It's like a taste test and it's always interesting to hear everyone's impressions.

In terms of the bass in the right channel and the bad aim.... there was one point at one of the Ohio shows, can't remember which, where it got real loud, and everyone looked in their bag to make adjustments.  I remember around one of those points checking my levels when Gordon was sending some funky loud effects through his bass, and my right channel was shooting well over the left.  I'm no expert, but I took that as pretty good aim, as if Mike is coming out of the right half of the PA, I was picking up that spike of sound.

Comments welcome....
DPA 4023>Sonosax SX-M2/EAA PSP-2>Sound Devices 722 (24/96)
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 11:14:29 PM »
I would think that there would be more high freq. rejection off-axis to the mics than low freq. rejection. Low frequencies permeate a space much more than highs, right? Hence the use of 1 sub woofer in basic surround systems. I haven't listened to it yet, but I'm pretty sure the tapers in this instance did not aim the mics far enough off-axis from the stacks to cause the difference. The reason for any substantial difference, if any exists, would most likely lie elsewhere.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2011, 09:36:52 AM »
My playback is limited right now - so I'm listening on headphones.

A is shifted to the left a bit.

B had additional clarity and presence over A.  And initially, I liked that. However, I found B fatiguing.  I wouldn't say bright, but it wasn't something I'd like to listen to a lot.  Just something about the mid high's that I found a bit grating.  So I preferred A.

Thanks for the comp!

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2011, 06:51:49 PM »

Thank you for the comp.  I'm not sure which I'd choose if I had to pick the one source that I'd be running personally.  But I'm pretty sure that I know which camp is which.   :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 06:53:46 PM by dactylus »
hot licks > microphones > recorder



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Offline acidjack

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2011, 12:20:00 PM »
On one listen, on ATH-M50s, I thought A was maybe a touch smoother than B.  B did have a bit more "presence" and maybe a touch more in the HF, but I also found it somewhat harsher.  They were closer than I expected, though. 

I think A is the DPAs and I prefer A.  Not having the Sax myself, though, I wouldn't say I am super-confident in identifying my own gear in this case.. :)
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

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Offline JasonSobel

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2011, 12:35:09 PM »
thanks to everyone who has posted thoughts about this comp.

right now, 7 total voters, 3 prefer source A, and 4 prefer source B.  and a pretty even split among those you think which source is which.  I'm thinking I'll let this go through the day, and the post which source is which this evening...

the iput.it is awesome!
The change is noticeable but I'm not totally sure which I prefer. Are you satisfied with the results it provided?

Am I satisfied with the comparison?  with my recording?  with Lenny's recording?  The answer is yes, to all three.  While I think I would have been able to pick out which is which, I obviously knew which source was which going in.  I will say, however, that the differences are more subtle than I would have guessed.  Before I got to listen to Lenny's DPA's, I would have guessed that there would have been a greater difference between the two recordings.

Offline hi and lo

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2011, 12:42:23 PM »

B had additional clarity and presence over A.  And initially, I liked that. However, I found B fatiguing.  I wouldn't say bright, but it wasn't something I'd like to listen to a lot.  Just something about the mid high's that I found a bit grating.  So I preferred A.

Thanks for the comp!

My thoughts exactly. I vote for A.

Offline lastubbe

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2011, 12:50:10 PM »
I just emailed Jason my thoughts and will save them until he posts the results so everyone has a chance to get in.
DPA 4023>Sonosax SX-M2/EAA PSP-2>Sound Devices 722 (24/96)
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2011, 02:12:23 PM »

B had additional clarity and presence over A.  And initially, I liked that. However, I found B fatiguing.  I wouldn't say bright, but it wasn't something I'd like to listen to a lot.  Just something about the mid high's that I found a bit grating.  So I preferred A.

Thanks for the comp!

My thoughts exactly. I vote for A.

Fwiw, I tried hard not to identify the mics... I just listened.

This stuff is so subjective and dependent on playback.   If the playback is a bit muddy, or overly biased to the low end (a lot of playbacks I hear have sloppy bottoms), then B might sound better.

So how much of this difference is pre-amp vs. mics?  I wonder if a little more spacing between the mics on B might tame what I hear?  Maybe it isn't the mics.  It would have been great if you guys had mixed things up and swapped backends for the second set.   What kind of windscreens were in use?

I once posted a comp here of an outdoor Umphreys show comparing my C4 > minime to 4022 > v3.  They sounded really close.  The 4022 brought a bit more bottom (though I've always felt the v3 has a bit of rolloff built in).  Are the 4022 and c4 close?  Not really... But I don't think you hear the difference so much at an outdoor show, where the great off-axis response of the 402x isn't as apparent.

Oh... Another question.  How many volts were supplied to each sonosax?  It seems that the sax has specific voltage requirements and many external power sources come up short.  I also think some regulated power sources aren't very clean and inject noise.

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2011, 02:32:45 PM »
it-goes-to-eleven: some interesting thoughts, and I'll respond to some of them.



Fwiw, I tried hard not to identify the mics... I just listened.

This stuff is so subjective and dependent on playback.   If the playback is a bit muddy, or overly biased to the low end (a lot of playbacks I hear have sloppy bottoms), then B might sound better.

absolutely, this is all very subjective.  it depends on playback equipment, what each of us can or can not hear, and also what each of us prefers to hear or how we each want it to sound.  The subjectivity is what makes it fun.  If any mics were objectively better than all the rest in every recording scenario, we'd all be running the same gear. :)

So how much of this difference is pre-amp vs. mics?  I wonder if a little more spacing between the mics on B might tame what I hear?  Maybe it isn't the mics.  It would have been great if you guys had mixed things up and swapped backends for the second set.   What kind of windscreens were in use?

just to be clear, both sets of mics were running into the same type of pre-amp (Sonosax SX-M2).  different A/D in the two different decks, but I don't think we can attribute any differences to pre-amps.

Edit to add - on my beyerdynamic CK930 recording, I was using DPA UA0896 windscreens.  I'm not sure what type of windscreens Lenny was using.

I once posted a comp here of an outdoor Umphreys show comparing my C4 > minime to 4022 > v3.  They sounded really close.  The 4022 brought a bit more bottom (though I've always felt the v3 has a bit of rolloff built in).  Are the 4022 and c4 close?  Not really... But I don't think you hear the difference so much at an outdoor show, where the great off-axis response of the 402x isn't as apparent.

That's funny (not ha ha funny, but "interesting" funny).  You say you did a comp, and that the results sounded very close to each other.  but based then, based on what I assume are biases not related to the comparison, you still thought/think the 4022 and the C4 aren't close in sound.

It is very possible that an outdoor show is not the best recording scenario to highlight difference in the mics, but that doesn't invalidate the comparison.  What if someone tapes the majority of their shows outside?  It seems like many people here tape a lot of outdoor shows.  that said, there is a difference between completely outside (like in a field), vs under a pavilion roof (like the comp posted in this thread).  Sure, there were no back walls to reflect sound, but off-axis response certainly comes into play with reflections off the roof.


Oh... Another question.  How many volts were supplied to each sonosax?  It seems that the sax has specific voltage requirements and many external power sources come up short.  I also think some regulated power sources aren't very clean and inject noise.

The sonosax I was running (beyerdynamic CK930) was being powered by two internal 9V batteries.  Lenny has a tekkeon to power his, but I'm not sure what voltage setting it was set to.

As before, I'll post results later this evening.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 02:54:59 PM by JasonSobel »

Offline lastubbe

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 02:51:02 PM »
19v on the Tekkeon.
DPA 4023>Sonosax SX-M2/EAA PSP-2>Sound Devices 722 (24/96)
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 03:14:46 PM »
I once posted a comp here of an outdoor Umphreys show comparing my C4 > minime to 4022 > v3.  They sounded really close.  The 4022 brought a bit more bottom (though I've always felt the v3 has a bit of rolloff built in).  Are the 4022 and c4 close?  Not really... But I don't think you hear the difference so much at an outdoor show, where the great off-axis response of the 402x isn't as apparent.

That's funny (not ha ha funny, but "interesting" funny).  You say you did a comp, and that the results sounded very close to each other.  but based then, based on what I assume are biases not related to the comparison, you still thought/think the 4022 and the C4 aren't close in sound.

Let me be clear - I am not picking at methodology or anything like that.  Just asking questions about what makes recordings sound different.  We haven't had nearly enough comps lately, and this was a fun one.

No doubt - the C4 is an amazing value, and I made some excellent recordings with it.  But sometimes, it's limitations are glaringly apparent (pun sorta intended).  I've never owned or run the 402x, but consider them comparable to mics I do own - gefells and schoeps.   So, no, I don't consider the C4's to be close.  And I wouldn't say that opinion is due to bias, but rather experience.  The c4's limitations will pop up and produce unfavorable results with some regularity.  Unfortunately, you don't typically know if you're in that situation until after the fact.  So you often get very good results, but rarely great results.

Listener fatigue is one of those weird things that's really subjective.  But, boy, I hear it and it's real.  Is it distortion, off-axis issues, smearing of some frequencies.. Not sure.  Linn audio often talked about "toe tapping" quality to music  reproduction - does something sound "musical".   I find great subcards and omni sources are far more musical, and natural than most card sources.  It takes really great cards to compare.

With my C4's cards, I started liking my 4061's a lot more and ran the C4's less and less.

Quote
under a pavilion roof (like the comp posted in this thread).  Sure, there were no back walls to reflect sound, but off-axis response certainly comes into play with reflections off the roof.

That roof is a killer!  Plus weird reflections off the metal grandstands in back.  I only recorded there once and I was not happy with the result.  It was one of my worst recordings in a long while.

Quote
The sonosax I was running (beyerdynamic CK930) was being powered by two internal 9V batteries.  Lenny has a tekkeon to power his, but I'm not sure what voltage setting it was set to.

My impression from the factory comments is that anything less than 24volts (I think that was it) will reduce the headroom of the sax.  Whether that is true, and whether the reduction is significant, are questions to be answered.

Another thought.. How hot was each recording?  I don't think we've comp'd that question nearly enough.  I owned a 722 and never found out whether it sounded best at 0 db gain line in or -6.  Some people ran it -6, I ran it at 0. I think a lot of preamps will distort when their outputs are run *that* hot (assuming the 7xx is driven close to 0dbFS).  We tend to focus on peak db, but I think rms is also important when discussing level based issues.

Offline rastasean

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2011, 03:37:57 PM »
Quote
Another thought.. How hot was each recording?

You can download the unedited recordings directly from this comp.

In your experience, what is the best way to do a comparison of mics, pre-amps, recorders, cables?
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Offline acidjack

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2011, 06:22:06 PM »
^^ I'd guess the answer to that is:

1. Keep everything as close together as possible other than mics - meaning pre and a/d.  Cables and bit bucket.. eh.
2. Keep the pattern and location of the mics as tight and comparable as possible.
3. Try and keep the basic level of the recording the same.

You obviously want to use an HQ pre or pres as well, or you encounter a situation where the pre significantly colors the sound of one mic.

IMO, if I were trying to run one as closely as possible, I'd try to do something like running the mics directly into a 744 - that way you'd have a nice HQ pre, and exactly the same everything else assuming you kept the levels close at the show. 

I think this comp is pretty great - but I'm not one of the people who is an absolute stickler about such things.  None of these are done in a controlled environment anyway - this is a recording of an outdoor PA system under a shed.  They can only tell you so much.  But still, they are really interesting, and informative to what most of us do.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2011, 09:01:23 PM »
Interesting results so far.

Currently, of the 9 votes.  5 prefer source A, 4 prefer source B.

Of the 5 who preferred source A, 4 thought that A was the DPA 4023, and only 1 thought that A was the beyerdynamic CK930.
of the 4 who preferred source B, 2 thought that B was the DPA 4023, and 2 thought that B was the beyerdynamic CK930.

spoiler alert... answers below...

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Source A = beyerdynamic CK930
Source B = DPA 4023

Offline acidjack

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2011, 09:06:27 PM »
Ha! Interesting. And I was wrong again ;) nice comp. And vote of confidence in the beyers
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2011, 05:41:43 AM »
I preferred B and did not read this thread until i did the test. I was right on my guess B=dpa. one thing i noticed on A is it picked up something in the 15K area. it has a line throughout all sections. i would also suspect it was recorded with lower levels. interesting comp-thanks

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2011, 09:01:29 AM »
This settles it - 402x's suck!  :P

I preferred B and did not read this thread until i did the test. I was right on my guess B=dpa. one thing i noticed on A is it picked up something in the 15K area. it has a line throughout all sections. i would also suspect it was recorded with lower levels. interesting comp-thanks

Just took a look and I see what you mean.  Not only is there a distinct band of gunk at 15K on source B, there is a pattern on the fft over the high frequencies that is typical of power supply regulator induced pre-amp noise.  Could be something else, but that's my guess.

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2011, 09:55:07 AM »
Thanks for the comp. Voted last week but didn't post.

As I've stated previously in other treads, after listening initially for differences between the raw recordings, what I usually end up focusing on in the end is not necessarily which is the better sounding as is, but rather which is more easily 'correctable' to something that sounds the most musical, 'toe-tapping' and engaging.

I find it easier to tame the emphasis which some have described as making 'B' sound fatiguing while retaining it's open, detailed qualities, than to try and pull out those engaging qualities from 'A'.  In that way, the valuable difference for me in this case is that reducing the influenced of a negative thing is easier than attempting to emphasize something lacking (comparatively).

Listener fatigue is one of those weird things that's really subjective.  But, boy, I hear it and it's real.  Is it distortion, off-axis issues, smearing of some frequencies.. Not sure.  Linn audio often talked about "toe tapping" quality to music  reproduction - does something sound "musical".   I find great subcards and omni sources are far more musical, and natural than most card sources.  It takes really great cards to compare.

QFT.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2011, 10:48:26 AM »
Listener fatigue is one of those weird things that's really subjective.  But, boy, I hear it and it's real.  Is it distortion, off-axis issues, smearing of some frequencies.. Not sure.  Linn audio often talked about "toe tapping" quality to music  reproduction - does something sound "musical".   I find great subcards and omni sources are far more musical, and natural than most card sources.  It takes really great cards to compare.

QFT.

+1

That roof is a killer!  Plus weird reflections off the metal grandstands in back.  I only recorded there once and I was not happy with the result.  It was one of my worst recordings in a long while.

troof.

I hear the metal roof (or something really metalic) in the tape I did there and some of the others. It's not impossible to make a great tape from the OTS there, but it's really hard with anything less restrictive in pattern then a set of cards.


Another thought.. How hot was each recording?  I don't think we've comp'd that question nearly enough.  I owned a 722 and never found out whether it sounded best at 0 db gain line in or -6.

In this case it's moot, the sax officially clips at +20dbu which is 0db for line-in gain on the 7 series. Now, the voltage feeding the sax will influence that, but In my experience, 19v from a regulated power supply gets you +20dbu give or take 0.5dbu in either direction. 16v drops that by about 1, maybe 2db. Since Jason used 9v's one would think he would be penalized as the set wore on, but the 661 has a max line-in that is around +16dbu IIRC, so he had to run it lower anyway, thus not missing the headroom nearly as much as Lenny would have.

I preferred B and did not read this thread until i did the test. I was right on my guess B=dpa. one thing i noticed on A is it picked up something in the 15K area. it has a line throughout all sections. i would also suspect it was recorded with lower levels. interesting comp-thanks

Just took a look and I see what you mean.  Not only is there a distinct band of gunk at 15K on source B, there is a pattern on the fft over the high frequencies that is typical of power supply regulator induced pre-amp noise.  Could be something else, but that's my guess.


yes, I get that on my ck930 recordings as well, it's not the sax, I've tested it with my 722 a couple weekends ago while doing nature recording. I've also played with it and I don't hear it unless I isolate the frequency band and turn it up loud. It's low enough in the recording that I'm not real worried about it.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2011, 06:39:43 PM »
I gave Jason my impressions on email before he posted the results, and even I was surprised.  I was totally wrong in guessing my source was A!  When listening to the AB comparison quickly on the headphones, I preferred A (Jason's).

I gave myself very little credit in the brightness of the recording, instantly giving Jason credit for that as in most cases when I go against Schoeps, Neumanns, AKGs or whatever, I find I don't often have the nice highs that other recordings do, but I usually love how my recordings feel on the low and mid end of things, and how the mics capture that end of the sound spectrum.

Pretty cool revelation.

My final impressions are that I'm really happy with how both recordings came out, and not only is it nice, but very educational to run these little comps to really appreciate the different flavors each of our gear chains offer in these types of recording settings.

Nice job Jason!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 09:38:56 PM by lastubbe »
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2011, 07:56:07 PM »
I think the comp went really well too! I was wrong and my choice was D.

Question about comps....
Would it make any sense to run a left channel with mic a and the right channel with mic b. Sure you would need to make sure the levels are equal but that seems easy enough to take care of in post. That way the comp would be using the same cable, the same mic pattern, the same pre-amps (if any), the same recorder ADC, the same recorder, the same memory card, the same voltage, etc.
Or would this not work out as easily as it seems?
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2011, 08:10:57 PM »
Well, I was the one person.

To me, these mics sound more like my MG300's than any other.

The DPA "clinical" sound stands out to me like a sore thumb for some reason.

I was somewhat confident that I nailed it. :P

BTW great comparison!

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2011, 08:20:56 PM »
I think the comp went really well too! I was wrong and my choice was D.

Question about comps....
Would it make any sense to run a left channel with mic a and the right channel with mic b. Sure you would need to make sure the levels are equal but that seems easy enough to take care of in post. That way the comp would be using the same cable, the same mic pattern, the same pre-amps (if any), the same recorder ADC, the same recorder, the same memory card, the same voltage, etc.
Or would this not work out as easily as it seems?
Sean, I brought up this same EXACT piont, as it seemed like the most FAIR way to comp two different mics.
To my knowledge, at least around TS, no one has done it like that.
I started a thread last year about it. Here's what people had to say. I still think it's the easiest/most thorough way to compare two mics/caps/pres/ad's
and END UP WITH TWO MONO FILES with no stereo shifting. Two mics, same level. DONE DEAL

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139667.0
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 08:22:57 PM by newplanet7 »
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2011, 08:31:29 PM »
Recording mono is a fine idea, but I wouldn't find it very useful.  To really evaluate a mic, I find I need to hear a stereo configuration.  Without a stereo configuration, I don't have a sense for how the mic's off-axis frequency response contributes to the overall stereo imaging, reverberant sound attenuation, etc.  I, for one, am not capable of listening to a mono source and envisioning in my mind's eye how it would perform in a stereo configuration.  And since I'm interested in how a mic performs in stereo, a mono comp wouldn't do me much good.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2011, 08:38:59 PM »
I think the comp went really well too! I was wrong and my choice was D.

Question about comps....
Would it make any sense to run a left channel with mic a and the right channel with mic b. Sure you would need to make sure the levels are equal but that seems easy enough to take care of in post. That way the comp would be using the same cable, the same mic pattern, the same pre-amps (if any), the same recorder ADC, the same recorder, the same memory card, the same voltage, etc.
Or would this not work out as easily as it seems?
Sean, I brought up this same EXACT piont, as it seemed like the most FAIR way to comp two different mics.
To my knowledge, at least around TS, no one has done it like that.
I started a thread last year about it. Here's what people had to say. I still think it's the easiest/most thorough way to compare two mics/caps/pres/ad's
and END UP WITH TWO MONO FILES with no stereo shifting. Two mics, same level. DONE DEAL

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139667.0

Tried it years ago, and will still sometimes do it for very specific situations.  But I find that it isn't very useful.  Do it, if you want to do it.

The thing is, I don't care about mono performance.  I care about having a great soundstage, with a musical result.  The off-axis performance is critical to creating a soundstage and an ambience.   Mono recordings quickly become boring.  Many PA recordngs lack much of a musical soundstage, but still have ambience.

Ultimately, what sort of decision can you make from a mono recording, since that isn't how you'll use the mics?  I wish it was that easy.  It's a fairly limited subset of what is important, and what is important is stereo performance.

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2011, 09:13:25 PM »
What I'm saying is you can hear the differences in the mics. Coloration etc.
All playing fields would be level.

I hear what you guys are saying, in that it doesn't display the stereo/soundstage/off axis frequency response
but in most comps I find the imaging off from one set to the next even though the stereo pairs are in the same
configuration. That sways everything do with the comp IMO. You get different frequencies being better represented by one pair
because of configurations being off.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2011, 10:00:49 PM »
All playing fields would be level.

Not really, they're pointing in very different directions.  The very nature of any good stereo microphone configuration is such that the playing field between channels is significantly and intentionally not level.

Quote
[snip] ..in most comps I find the imaging off from one set to the next even though the stereo pairs are in the same
configuration. That sways everything do with the comp IMO. You get different frequencies being better represented by one pair because of configurations being off.

To further pile on the above argument, why expect parody between the Left and Right channels of two different mics who's configuration is also off?

Even if the configurations and placements are as close as possible, you may well hear similar differences due to the different behavior (or misbehavior) of the microphones.  A photo helps ;)
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2011, 11:23:19 PM »
All playing fields would be level.

Not really, they're pointing in very different directions.  The very nature of any good stereo microphone configuration is such that the playing field between channels is significantly and intentionally not level.

I was assuming that he meant he would be pointing the mics in the same direction and just stacking them but running them in different signal chains further down (e.g. L1mic and L2mic run into the same gear as L/R pairs). If the original statement is intended that your left pointing mic is A, and your right pointing mic is B, I'm pressed to see how you'll get reasonably comparable results that way. For example, what if there is an object that causes a different reflection, or more open space with less crowd (e.g. the sbd is off center in your recording), that will alter your perception of pattern tightness.

There are no perfect ways to do this other then to isolate the differences to just the mics and then stack the mics. Testing gear behind mics is easier to control (through isolating splitters) but there is only so much one can glean when testing mics. The good side is that they should have the starkest differences when you control everything else.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2011, 11:55:45 PM »
newplanet7, Thanks for linking me to the post where you originally wondered about this.

I suppose comparing microphones is the same as comparing two images taken with two different cameras--only the person who actually took the photograph would understand the real shades of all the colors captured, and only if the person was paying strict attention to the colors would be able to state which is closest to the real one. It is quite obvious people are very opinionated on the most scientific ways to do a mic comparison and unless done so by an actual scientist who specializes in sound recording, all other methods will be inferior.   Obviously things like a metal roof, objects blocking the line of path, microphone sensitivity, etc would interfere with the recording but as pointed out, not all recordings we do will be in ideal conditions. I would tend to think we buy mics based on the way they sound and not just the logo attached to them so there will always be unscientific tests done.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2011, 12:05:58 AM »
All playing fields would be level.

Not really, they're pointing in very different directions.  The very nature of any good stereo microphone configuration is such that the playing field between channels is significantly and intentionally not level.

I was assuming that he meant he would be pointing the mics in the same direction and just stacking them but running them in different signal chains further down (e.g. L1mic and L2mic run into the same gear as L/R pairs).
Page has got it right. They would be pointing in the same direction. Not one being the left or right.
Just as if you were to do a shootout on a piano, drum kit etc. Pretty simple really.
People do single mic shootouts, right??????? I have heard a few in studio. Why can't it be done the same way in the Live atmosphere?
Mics will sound different regardless if you use a pair or not. It's just a more controlled way. Guess I just don't see it the same as some of you.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 12:10:01 AM by newplanet7 »
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2011, 12:37:12 AM »
Page has got it right. They would be pointing in the same direction. Not one being the left or right.

Ok, then yes, that's one way to do it. Not sure if it's better or worse if you can control the downstream stuff (if you can't, then it would be one way to try and mitigate that), but if you can't, I can see some benefit. Interesting idea.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2011, 12:40:37 AM »
All playing fields would be level.

Not really, they're pointing in very different directions.

Ooops, my bad.  Your way makes much more sense.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2011, 05:30:54 PM »

I find it easier to tame the emphasis which some have described as making 'B' sound fatiguing while retaining it's open, detailed qualities, than to try and pull out those engaging qualities from 'A'.  In that way, the valuable difference for me in this case is that reducing the influenced of a negative thing is easier than attempting to emphasize something lacking (comparatively).


Could you describe briefly how this is done?  That has me intrigued. 

I spent some time after doing a fairly controlled comp of my (now sold) Gefell m210s and my Beyer mc950's to get the 950's to sound a bit more like the Gefells.  Then did the same type of processing to my 950 sources to see how the processed 950's compared to my Milabs.  All in all, just goofing around.

I need to learn more about post-processing techniques...



Oh, on the comps, I'm with Brian and the others and I want to do stereo comps so I can learn what I can both about off-axis response and thus soundstaging, and also on differences in tonality between mics.  Doing a mono comp just gets me the tonality info, but not the full picture. 

Overall, people will never agree on how to do a comp, because different people want different things.  You just need to take them for what they're worth.  I think it is great that people share comps, even if I ignore them.  I have a bad habit of keeping extremely lousy records and labeling of files, but I probably have tons of comps I've never shared.  I keep meaning to dig around and see what I have in the way of comps that people might want to hear.  I know first up is a comp I did with my friend Scott of Gefell m210's > EAA PSP2, utilizing the two outputs of the PSP2 (1/8" and XLR), sent to a non-mod DR680 and a Busman-mod DR680.  Not a perfect comp due to the different outs on the PSP2, but could be fun.

FWIW, I didn't listen to this comp.  I've tried before, but the merged-in, alternating sources method of a comp doesn't work at all for me.  I need to immerse myself in the source and spend a lot of time taking it in holistically, then do that with the other source.  20 second segments doesn't work for me.  (Again, no disrespect at all for Jason, great you got the comp done!  Just my own preferences on which comps to participate in and which ones not to.)
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2011, 07:47:23 PM »
FWIW, I didn't listen to this comp.  I've tried before, but the merged-in, alternating sources method of a comp doesn't work at all for me.  I need to immerse myself in the source and spend a lot of time taking it in holistically, then do that with the other source.  20 second segments doesn't work for me.  (Again, no disrespect at all for Jason, great you got the comp done!  Just my own preferences on which comps to participate in and which ones not to.)

Todd - I also posted the whole song from each source.  No excuse! :)

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2011, 09:48:55 PM »
FWIW, I didn't listen to this comp.  I've tried before, but the merged-in, alternating sources method of a comp doesn't work at all for me.  I need to immerse myself in the source and spend a lot of time taking it in holistically, then do that with the other source.  20 second segments doesn't work for me.  (Again, no disrespect at all for Jason, great you got the comp done!  Just my own preferences on which comps to participate in and which ones not to.)

Todd - I also posted the whole song from each source.  No excuse! :)

Damn, need to pay more attention. ;) Also need to spend more time on ts.com using my Mac that has a pretty good playback system I've integrated into it.  I'm always on my iPad these days, and what's the point of trying to listen to a comp on a 1/2" speaker on the back of a iPad?  :P
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2011, 10:20:02 PM »
Could you describe briefly how this is done?  That has me intrigued.

I find location is 80% of recording.. and EQ is 80% of post-processing.

It takes a good amount of experimentation, practice, listening skill, plus a lot of time to dial it in just so and a playback system that you 'know' and trust.  I also need to brush up those skills by putting more time into it, yet I know how powerful and effective it can be from the postitive results when I do.  Regardless of the initial timbral balance, some mics just seem to offer far more 'frequency manupulation headroom' (for lack of a better term) than others.  Not sure if that is because of a smoothness of frequency response, a phase thing or what.

Quote
I have a bad habit of keeping extremely lousy records and labeling of files, but I probably have tons of comps I've never shared.  I keep meaning to dig around and see what I have in the way of comps that people might want to hear. 

nods in solidarity..
I've several Countryman B3 / DPA 4060 comps I've been meaning to share, plus some Tetramic B-format so people can mess with the virtual mic stereo decodes.

Quote
I know first up is a comp I did with my friend Scott of Gefell m210's > EAA PSP2, utilizing the two outputs of the PSP2 (1/8" and XLR), sent to a non-mod DR680 and a Busman-mod DR680.  Not a perfect comp due to the different outs on the PSP2, but could be fun.

This DR-680 user wants to hear that one!
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2011, 12:03:20 AM »
FWIW, I didn't listen to this comp.  I've tried before, but the merged-in, alternating sources method of a comp doesn't work at all for me.  I need to immerse myself in the source and spend a lot of time taking it in holistically, then do that with the other source.  20 second segments doesn't work for me.  (Again, no disrespect at all for Jason, great you got the comp done!  Just my own preferences on which comps to participate in and which ones not to.)

Todd - I also posted the whole song from each source.  No excuse! :)

Damn, need to pay more attention. ;)

Yeah, I was going to bitch about that too, only to realize he'd posted the entire file as well.  ;D

I find out of a four minute song, I generally pick one 30 second section, and two or three 5 second sections to check specific details/tonal balance/imaging. The bummer is I need the entire 4 minutes to pick from.

Could you describe briefly how this is done?  That has me intrigued.

I find location is 80% of recording.. and EQ is 80% of post-processing.

In the scope of what we typically do, I generally agree with this.

It takes a good amount of experimentation, practice, listening skill, plus a lot of time to dial it in just so and a playback system that you 'know' and trust.  I also need to brush up those skills by putting more time into it, yet I know how powerful and effective it can be from the postitive results when I do.  Regardless of the initial timbral balance, some mics just seem to offer far more 'frequency manupulation headroom' (for lack of a better term) than others.  Not sure if that is because of a smoothness of frequency response, a phase thing or what.

Well, for one thing, The DPAs are just in a different league in terms of what sort of detail I'd expect. Yes, it's the law of deminishing returns, but I'd sort of expect the DPAs to have more micro/lowlevel detail then the beyers (or any other similarly priced mic that isn't a "measurement mic").

I find the beyers take to EQ very well, but that won't do anything for soundstage/detail aspects.
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Re: DPA 4023 vs beyerdynamic CK930 | an informal comparison
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2011, 07:05:02 PM »
Could you describe briefly how this is done?  That has me intrigued.

I find location is 80% of recording.. and EQ is 80% of post-processing.

Found a very good guide to this type of EQing, which breaks it into two stages- 1st to find, isolate and diminish problem resonances, and 2nd to then enhance the sound to preference.  The article adresses EQ for mixing, but the advice applies just as well to our 'mastering' type work, especially the problem isolation part directly relavent to your question, but also in recommending broad, low Q adjustments for enhancements.

From Dave Mouton's website:
A Fresh Approach to Equalization: the Tom Bates Way
http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/fresh_approach_to_eq/
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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