Topic: Let's talk medium/high end stealth cardioid mics...

[Rick]

conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.

I've heard some great MBHO 603a tapes but people don't seem to talk about these mics too much.

I used them for a little bit. They are great mics for the price. They sound similar to Schoeps.

I think the KM184s, MG M300s and the AKG 480 sound better in that price range though. And I think if your going to spend that much money on a stealth setup, might as well save up for the high-end stuff like 4022, 140s, MK4/CCM4. That's what I should have done. It would have saved me some cash in the long run.

 

[John Kelly]

conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.

I'm not a huge fan of the MBHO sound.  I ran them for a few months and only managed a few tapes that I *really* liked with them.  I prefer less coloration, hence the v3 and the audix micros.

But if you like some color in your mics, they're definitely a great option.

[Brian Skalinder]

They [MBHO 603A] sound similar to Schoeps.

Interesting, I don't think they sound similar at all.  Different ears/brains/playback! 

And I think if your going to spend that much money on a stealth setup, might as well save up for the high-end stuff like 4022, 140s, MK4/CCM4. That's what I should have done. It would have saved me some cash in the long run.

Used Neumann KM140s aren't much more expensive than used MBHO 603As and I think sound quite a bit better / different.

conspicuously absent from this discussion is, IMO, the best mid-range stealth option available, the MBHO 603A's.
considerably less money ($1K new) than the schoeps or dpas, same stealth footprint.

Where can you get the 603As for $1k new?  If that's the case, the prices have dropped a LOT since I had my pair!  And I think the stealth footpring is considerably larger. As we've seen from discussion, plenty of options to run Schoeps without the long-ass mic bodies.  The KM140 mic bodies are about half the size of the 603As.  And the DPAs don't have a traditional mic body.  I found the extra mic body + kinda lengthy 5-pin mini-XLR connectors kinda bulky for stealth, though it could certainly be done without too much hassle if you're motivated.

[Rick]

And I think if your going to spend that much money on a stealth setup, might as well save up for the high-end stuff like 4022, 140s, MK4/CCM4. That's what I should have done. It would have saved me some cash in the long run.

Used Neumann KM140s aren't much more expensive than used MBHO 603As and I think sound quite a bit better / different.

A used set of 140s would be about $1400 right? and MBHO $1000 right? That's almost 50% more. I agree though, well worth the step up in price!

[boa]

+T for your suggestions, but (one of) my priorities is keeping it really small. SPCMC4>SP battery box would be ideal, but I've read on this board this can overload in loud bassy rock shows, not sure if this is 100% accurate...

Ive got a pair of the AT933's from SP (they use the 853 capsules)  with the Card and Hyper caps and run off the basic 9v SP battery box. You can try them out if you wish; I've used them once in the past 2 years I think. I rarely use anything but the 4061's anymore.

[John Kelly]

+T for your suggestions, but (one of) my priorities is keeping it really small. SPCMC4>SP battery box would be ideal, but I've read on this board this can overload in loud bassy rock shows, not sure if this is 100% accurate...

Ive got a pair of the AT933's from SP (they use the 853 capsules)  with the Card and Hyper caps and run off the basic 9v SP battery box. You can try them out if you wish; I've used them once in the past 2 years I think. I rarely use anything but the 4061's anymore.

They're similar to the 853s, but they aren't the same.  You can check the frequency response graphs on at's website.  Unless of course you bought the adapter for the 933s to run the 853 capsules, but it kind of defeats the purpose of getting the 933s (their size)...

[Humbug]

Boa, good to see you here! Thanks for the generous offer, will let you know.

[jk labs]

Not necessarily. The MK4s can be run without the bodies. I know of two ways in fact that are not hard to find.  Both of which are cheaper then a pair of CCM4, infact much cheaper...

sonosax and/or the nxbox.  am i right?  sorry, i wasn't thinking.

Those were the two I was thinking about. I bet you could get a JK labs box too... Not mention the Schoeps VMS 5U. So there's at least 4 ways to do it.

"At least 4"? You have inside info? We've kept a low profile wrt Schoeps as other good options exist. 
But we do entertain custom needs. Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?

[Brian Skalinder]

Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?

Size and durability sound great.  I would want:

• Built like a tank (sounds like it's covered above)
• Support for KCY cable (sounds like it's covered above).
• Continuously variable (not stepped) independent L/R gain, say 0 - 40 dB, or maybe two selectable tiers 0-20, 20-40.
• Dual RCA or stereo mini output
• Easily replaceable internal power source

Just a quick list off the top of my head, off to a meeting now.  Curious to see what other people say.

[jk labs]

Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?

Size and durability sound great.  I would want:

• Built like a tank (sounds like it's covered above)
• Support for KCY cable (sounds like it's covered above).
• Continuously variable (not stepped) independent L/R gain, say 0 - 40 dB, or maybe two selectable tiers 0-20, 20-40.
• Dual RCA or stereo mini output
• Easily replaceable internal power source

Just a quick list off the top of my head, off to a meeting now.  Curious to see what other people say.

Thanks Brian!
 
Those points are noted.

The implementation of analog gain always poses a dillemma. A stepped gain control can be made to track l/r perfectly and last almost forever with "no" added noise.

With potentiometers quality means big physical size. Then there are conductive material issues.
Contact issues. Left right tracking issues. And a finite lifetime. But in light of a soundboard containing
hundreds of them two more must be ok?     

[gewwang]

The implementation of analog gain always poses a dillemma. A stepped gain control can be made to track l/r perfectly and last almost forever with "no" added noise.

Along those lines, it'd be nice to figure out a way to lock the gain controls. As it is now with the sax for instance, we have to tape the levels down and take it off and put it back on inconspicuously when we have to make adjustments. I also like the way the psp3 does it with one control for overall gain and another for l/r balance but not sure if that's a possibility.

[timP]

There are three significant differences between the ULS and the Blue Line that have relevancy to stealthing, especially if the choice stands between buying food or getting a mic set up. 

A) Unlike the ULS caps, the Blue Line capsules are electret
B) The Blue Line has sufficient performance in the integral active buffer to allow direct wiring ..
C) If one stares at a BL capsule for a while the bayonett connector sure starts to look like a cable exit port...

I.e all your really need are a pair of capsules, some 10 feet of strong starquadcable, a 9 Volts battery box and some epoxy. Now granted, the resale value might be slight :-)  but it's a rugged setup tolerant of both humidity and high sound pressure levels.

hold the train!!!
it seems you are saying that you can make a set of steath cables for the Blue Line caps, but what about the bodies?
the extension cables I have seen for the 300 series still need the bodies in the line, so does this mean I could run the cables as stated above with a (v power supply right into a pre-amp?

this I might just try!

[Rick]

Not necessarily. The MK4s can be run without the bodies. I know of two ways in fact that are not hard to find.  Both of which are cheaper then a pair of CCM4, infact much cheaper...

sonosax and/or the nxbox.  am i right?  sorry, i wasn't thinking.

Those were the two I was thinking about. I bet you could get a JK labs box too... Not mention the Schoeps VMS 5U. So there's at least 4 ways to do it.

"At least 4"? You have inside info? We've kept a low profile wrt Schoeps as other good options exist. 
But we do entertain custom needs. Most recently what possibly is the most compact hq interface/mic-pre
solution ever for the stock KCY. About the same size as five 9 volts batts packed densely side by side.
(It could be made even smaller but the need hasn't been there).
Rugged enough to park you car on top of (no I haven't tried).  No compromises in parts or sonics
(except the gain stage is IC based though). All essential controls + i/o on one end surface.

I'm not posting so as to generate lots of interest. But I'd like to know what features and properties etc
tapers are after that are not well met today?

wow that sounds nice...

If I could design a Schoeps unit. purely for stealth/low-profile, mine would have

-Stock KCY in
-Mini Stereo XLR out and mini 1/8 out
-Stepped gain (2,4,8,12,16,24,32). Not Continuous, becuase the levels can bumped and you can control the levels on the deck anyways.
-Light. The plasic that they use for the Sonosax SX-M2 would be perfect.
-Small as possible.

[robertd]

as far as compact solutions for Schoeps goes, I have been pretty happy with my Nbox.
it's simple: input, output and on/off switch.
if a similar preamp could be made smaller and use less power it would be perfect.

if you start adding gain and other features to a similar device I think you are starting to move away from the purpose of the boxes.
I think they are intended for glitch free operation in less than ideal circumstances:
jammed into a pocket or fannypack where knobs and switches could easily be jostled.

[Rick]

as far as compact solutions for Schoeps goes, I have been pretty happy with my Nbox.
it's simple: input, output and on/off switch.
if a similar preamp could be made smaller and use less power it would be perfect.

if you start adding gain and other features to a similar device I think you are starting to move away from the purpose of the boxes.
I think they are intended for glitch free operation in less than ideal circumstances:
jammed into a pocket or fannypack where knobs and switches could easily be jostled.

If you had stepped gain, then jostled knbos/switches wouldn't be a problem. Plus when your not stealthing its nice to have a few more options. That's why I got the SX-M2/LS2. That and highs sound better

Someone can correct me, but I think the battery issue is a schoeps problem. The batteries in my SX-M2/LS2 need to be changed every show too.