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Author Topic: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup  (Read 18086 times)

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Offline saneproductions

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2007, 03:48:40 PM »
Don't worry about hijacking, I am all ears!
Mike Johnson

Offline BayTaynt3d

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2007, 04:41:20 PM »
There is something hugely desirable about the sound and feel of a well-made recording when omnidirectional (i.e. pressure) microphones are used. The stereo image may be only a vague, wandering mist...

You can get plenty of stereo image with good placement and omnis using the right size split or a j-disc or better yet 3-omnis in decca. And sure, hypers can make a good recording, I even said I use them, but the chances of them making a better recording than omnis or cards in a classical or chamber music situation in a decent hall are slim to none IMHO, which is why they are rarely used in those situations (except when multitracking and getting reinforcement of certain sections, but even then I doubt it).

And for the record, points taken earlier, so thanks for the clarifications. And I never said anything about Schoeps being defective, they obviously make some of the best mics out there, we all know that, so that had nothing to do with my comments whatsoever. But regardless of how good the off-axis is, it's still off-axis and it won't be as good as on-axis, so that was my main point. I'm also not sure I agree that XY summed to mono gets you the same thing as the M in MS, unless that M is something like a sub-card, I think the XY summed will have a larger coverage to its overall pattern (not to mention the differences from the on- vs. off-axis aspects of MS vs. XY). Now maybe I'm missing some of the phase cancelling that might occur when summing the XY to mono, but don't think so. I'm also under the impression that a 50-50 MS pattern using a card for mid ends up with more of a 66 degree hypers pattern than it does the equivalent of XY (which is traditionally 90 but not necessarily). But I get the point about summing MS to mono and ending up with M only, so I guess I missed that one, I was more focused on the overall mono-compatibility of all coincident techniques, which don't necessarily result in the same outcome.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2007, 05:00:00 PM »
There are only two condenser fig-8 microphones on the market (that I know of) that are truly symmetrical single diaphragm microphones.

Most are made from back-to-back cardioids or a single diaphragm with a single back-plate that makes the pattern non-symmetrical.

The two that are truly symmetrical are the Sennheiser MKH 30 and the Neumann KM 120.

Both these have a front plate as well as a back plate so the polar-pattern is truly identical on each side.  The MKH 40 has an active front plate which drastically reduces IM distortion - the KM 120 has a front plate for acoustic purposes only to give a truly symmetrical polar-pattern.

By contrast, the Schoeps does not have a front plate and you can see the result in the published polar-pattern - the front is different from the back.  For most uses this doesn't really matter - but as a side mic. in an MS array it will make the left/right signals slightly different.

I hope this helps.

John

Offline DSatz

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2007, 02:00:47 AM »
John, what you have said here about Schoeps figure-8s is simply mistaken as a matter of fact, so perhaps you will want to revise the way in which you understand the issues which you are discussing. If the backplate of a single-diaphragm figure-8 capsule is acoustically transparent (e.g. Schoeps MK 8), that microphone's bidirectional symmetry can be as close to perfect as manufacturing tolerances allow.

On the other hand, if a figure-8 capsule has two backplates and they differ, its pattern will be lop-sided. How do you explain the fact that Sennheiser uses the two-backplate approach for their MKH-series microphones with all the other patterns, too, if this technique supposedly produces an ideal bidirectional pattern every time? Dr. Hibbing and Mr. Griese from Sennheiser gave an interesting paper at the European AES Convention in 1981 (available as preprint 1752 from the AES) about their reasons for using this approach--mainly, that it can reduce certain types of non-linear distortion in the capsule itself, as you mentioned.

I recommend reading this paper--you'll see that it isn't about pattern symmetry, which in practice is quite similar for all three of the manufacturers that you mentioned.

--best regards

P.S.: Incidentally, the dual-backplate, push-pull construction principle was introduced first by Schoeps several decades ago. They then stopped using it, and to the best of my knowledge, Sennheiser is now the only manufacturer of such microphones.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 02:51:22 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline muj

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2007, 05:08:44 AM »


P.S.: Incidentally, the dual-backplate, push-pull construction principle was introduced first by Schoeps several decades ago. They then stopped using it, and to the best of my knowledge, Sennheiser is now the only manufacturer of such microphones.


Dear Mr.Satz Sanken microphones use this principle today with their titanium caps and nevaton microphones.

Offline midside

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2007, 03:01:15 PM »
Muj,
Can you please tell me more about the mic in your avatar?

Offline muj

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2007, 03:59:51 PM »
Muj,
Can you please tell me more about the mic in your avatar?



it's the prototype predecessor of schoeps mstc54/64 . I just used it as a avatar as it has some twisted sexual undertones to it  >:D ;D ;D

please visit schoepsclassics.de
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 04:25:23 PM by muj »

Offline musicsherlock

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2007, 04:23:02 PM »
Muj,
Can you please tell me more about the mic in your avatar?


 I just used it as a avaatar as it has some twisted sexual undertones to it  >:D ;D ;D


kinda like this bad boy...

Offline Chuck

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2007, 05:04:27 PM »
Muj,
Can you please tell me more about the mic in your avatar?



it's the prototype predecessor of schoeps mstc54/64 . I just used it as a avatar as it has some twisted sexual undertones to it  >:D ;D ;D

please visit schoepsclassics.de

I'm not so sure it looks 'sexual" to me... I see it more as a TV antenna... but on second thought...  :o
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
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Offline DSatz

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2007, 12:19:50 AM »
midside, Muj's avatar is half of a tube stereo microphone built by Schoeps for the French broadcasting organization (ORTF, now known as Radio France). It uses the 17 cm, 110-degree arrangement which is well known today. I saw this type of microphone used in Paris to record an orchestra concert when I was there in around 1976, and I took some photos of the arrangement which I still have; this microphone was not just a prototype.

I believe Muj's photo may be taken from the "Schoeps Classics" Web site, specifically the page on "unique objects, prototypes and discontinued models." As he says, it has MK 5 capsules; these were originally introduced as successors to the M 934 B two-pattern capsule with improved specifications and no need for the "phase ring" of the older model when used in its cardioid setting.

Muj, thank you for mentioning Sanken condenser microphones as having a push-pull transducer design. Is there a particular model or group of their models which follow this approach?

--best regards
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 12:24:05 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline midside

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2007, 12:33:55 AM »
Thanks for all the info and for hipping me to the schoeps classics website....lot's of fun vintage pics!
If you don't mind me hijacking this thread just a little...I am curious as to why they made a three pattern switchable dual cap microphone:
http://www.schoepsclassics.de/1969_cmts.htm
I understand that this would work great for MS, XY and blumlein but the use of the omni position would have very little versatility.  I suppose you can use 1 omni cap and leave the other off....or, you can use the onmi with the 8 in MS but this is rare.  I also suppose you can record 1 omni and 1 card for a mono channel and pick the best sounding one later......just thinking......

Offline John Willett

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2007, 08:37:33 AM »
John, what you have said here about Schoeps figure-8s is simply mistaken as a matter of fact, so perhaps you will want to revise the way in which you understand the issues which you are discussing. If the backplate of a single-diaphragm figure-8 capsule is acoustically transparent (e.g. Schoeps MK 8), that microphone's bidirectional symmetry can be as close to perfect as manufacturing tolerances allow.

Sorry - No, I am not mistaken.

The backplate may be acoustically transparent, but the acoustic conditions are different each side of the diaphragm and the Schoeps published polar pattern for the fig-8 clearly shows the differences.



It's very clear that the rear is different from the front at high frequencies.




On the other hand, if a figure-8 capsule has two backplates and they differ, its pattern will be lop-sided. How do you explain the fact that Sennheiser uses the two-backplate approach for their MKH-series microphones with all the other patterns, too, if this technique supposedly produces an ideal bidirectional pattern every time? Dr. Hibbing and Mr. Griese from Sennheiser gave an interesting paper at the European AES Convention in 1981 (available as preprint 1752 from the AES) about their reasons for using this approach--mainly, that it can reduce certain types of non-linear distortion in the capsule itself, as you mentioned.

I recommend reading this paper--you'll see that it isn't about pattern symmetry, which in practice is quite similar for all three of the manufacturers that you mentioned.

I know Manfred Hibbing and I have read the paper (and I know Jörg Wüttke of Schoeps as well).  The backplate and frontplate are identical so there is no lopsidedness. The symmetrical capsule approach only really works with RF condenser microphones which have a low impedance capsule, it is not practical with AF condenser microphones which have an extremely high impedance capsule. Yes, the symmetrical capsule vastly reduces IM distortion, which is why it is used for all the range.  Neumann use a frontplate in their fig-8 for the acoustic purpose of making the polar-pattern truly symmetrical (it is not wired electrically), this was explained to me by Stephan Peus the designer.

The MKH 30 and AK 20 both have identical patterns to the front and rear.

MKH 30


The Neumann link is HERE (click on the magnifying glass to get the diagrams).

I do know what I am talking about and I do know all three designers and have spoken to them several times.  I'm not knocking Schoeps at all, just pointing out a fact that is clear in their published specifications.
 
John

Offline muj

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2007, 01:01:56 PM »



kinda like this bad boy...
[/quote]


yep that's beach ball harry  :-*

Offline muj

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2007, 01:07:10 PM »


Muj, thank you for mentioning Sanken condenser microphones as having a push-pull transducer design. Is there a particular model or group of their models which follow this approach?

--best regards

Most of the sanken line ...like cu-31 . 30, cm7 cm9 check out their website.

nevaton also have one with push-pull design going on , it's the mc49 . a pic is here and pdf file
http://www.russian-mics.com/downloads/nevaton_mc49.pdf


Offline muj

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Re: figure 8 mic for M/S stereo setup
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2007, 01:08:45 PM »
Thanks for all the info and for hipping me to the schoeps classics website....lot's of fun vintage pics!
If you don't mind me hijacking this thread just a little...I am curious as to why they made a three pattern switchable dual cap microphone:
http://www.schoepsclassics.de/1969_cmts.htm
I understand that this would work great for MS, XY and blumlein but the use of the omni position would have very little versatility.  I suppose you can use 1 omni cap and leave the other off....or, you can use the onmi with the 8 in MS but this is rare.  I also suppose you can record 1 omni and 1 card for a mono channel and pick the best sounding one later......just thinking......



you mean this one ?  8)

 

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