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Author Topic: MK21 vs MK22?  (Read 18070 times)

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Offline wforwumbo

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2023, 10:17:09 AM »
We finally have concrete data, and an explicit answer to this question. A few weeks ago, I ran my mk21 and mk22 right next to each other, both in 30cm/60 degrees (effectively pointed at the stacks), both using KCYs cables of the same length, both into 48v PFAs, into my Mixpre-6 with gain levels set identically. This is an explicit A-B comparison between the two mics.

I haven't had time to chop up the tapes, any interested parties in the short term should PM me and I'll be happy to send you raw wavs. If I get the files posted in the future, I'll edit this post and put the links here.

High level view, speaking subjectively: it's possible to get an amazing sounding tape with the classic Schoeps sound signature from either mic. The midrange is there on a pedestal from both mics, and both will offer THAT subcardioid sound we all lust after. To my ear, the midrange between the two is nearly identical. The 21 has extended bass and treble, and I would argue it makes a more detailed recording - although detail is only one half of the double-edged sword, the other being brutal honesty. The 22 sounds warm, and if you only care about midrange plus you want a cap that requires less attention and effort to learn this is the one for you. I think the 22 is extremely flexible (the night before doing my 21/22 comp, I ran the 22 in 34cm AB indoors in a chatty crowd, and I think it sounds sublime in that config) and the pattern lends itself well to "what we do" as tapers. The 21 is more demanding - it's the Schoeps cap I've owned the longest and it took me about 3 years to figure out how to run it, I think the 2 was an easier cap for me to learn - but once you understand how to use it, it makes tapes that are absolutely sublime.

In making these tapes, I thoroughly understand Schoeps' intent in designing both mics - the 21 really is designed as a mains pair, and the 22 as a spot or close mic. I have had better success with the 22 than the 21 in studio settings, where the 22 is more like a bassier and more open 4. To wit, I'll confirm my original intuition that guide the philosophy over how we can deploy each mic successfully: the 21 is an omni you can aim for a big, lush mains pair, while the 22 is a bassier and smooth cardioid. Polar patterns and frequency response plots were not a replacement at all for the experience of running the two mics myself, and I'd encourage others to do the same.

Personally, I prefer the sound of the 21. I sold my 22s the day after I made this comparison; in my particular set up, I feel the 2/21/4 cover my needs better, and the 22 is a luxury that I don't need to own. But I wouldn't say that the 22 is a worse cap, my ears just prefer the flavor of the 21 and in a taping section generally full of 22s I'm happy to have my personal flavor represented in the pack.

If anyone here is ever taping with me and interested in hearing the 21s, I'd be more than happy to offer a patch so you can hear for yourself, and I'd encourage you to do the same with a pair of 22s before buying either mic.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

2x Schoeps mk2; 2x Schoeps mk21; 2x Schoeps mk4

4x Schoeps cmc5; 4x Schoeps KC5; Nbob KCY; Naiant PFA

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2023, 11:21:21 AM »
Thanks for this.

Quote
I'll confirm my original intuition that guide the philosophy over how we can deploy each mic successfully: the 21 is an omni you can aim for a big, lush mains pair, while the 22 is a bassier and smooth cardioid. Polar patterns and frequency response plots were not a replacement at all for the experience of running the two mics myself, and I'd encourage others to do the same.

^That reflects what has been my conceptual understanding of these capsules, and, not having actually used either myself, is helpful to get some confirmation of it by way of your real world use and impressions.  As you note, nothing replaces the visceral knowledge gained through actual experience, particularly in conjunction with a good technical understanding of what's going on.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline adam111

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2023, 12:09:19 PM »
Thanks for the detailed report wforwumbo.

That is really insightful.

Offline DSatz

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2023, 06:34:52 PM »
A couple of things. For what it's worth, just to prevent speculation from becoming established as fact, both the MK 21 and the MK 22 were designed primarily for use as spot mikes in studio recording. Stereo recording with pairs of these capsules -- obviously not coincident pairs, but somewhat closely spaced, like ORTF with cardioids only farther apart -- was truly an afterthought as far as the company was concerned at the time.

The MK 21 was introduced in 1988 (and was followed by the MK 21 H, with a mild high-frequency boost for "pop" recording, about five years later) while the MK 22 is from 2009. I was in the "beta test" program for the MK 22 and was the first person, I believe, to use a pair of them for a stereo live concert recording. Everyone else in the beta, as far as I'm aware, was using them one by one as spot mikes; the capsule's stated purpose was to capture as much of the MK 21's sound quality as possible with near-cardioid directivity, so that spot or solo miking in studios wouldn't pick up other, nearby sound sources or as much room sound.

The special stereo bars for these capsules (STC 21 and STC 22) were introduced only as a result of special orders from, ahem, certain rather persistent customers in the United States, and then when those initial batches were sold, the company decided to make them generally available. In the case of the MK 21 it was 18 years between when the capsule was introduced and a stereo bar became available for it (!). For the MK 22 it didn't take so long, fortunately.

--In my experience, stereo recording with the MK 21 has something in common with Blumlein stereo recording: The results can be near-ideal, but the real-world situations in which those methods are the optimal choice are few and far between. When a pair of MK 21 is in the right place at the right time, beauty happens--no doubt about that. I only wish that I could use mine more often, but I can't. The MK 22 is better adapted to a much wider range of real-world recording situations in my experience. I think I've used my MK 22 maybe five times as often as my MK 21, and I've had the MK 21 for longer.

But keep in mind, please, that (a) I record classical concerts that generally have multiple instruments and/or voices presenting discrete source locations across a left-right spectrum, with a front-back depth dimension as well. The goals aren't necessarily the same as when picking up an amplified mix from P.A. loudspeakers that don't, in general, represent a spatial distribution of discrete sound sources that you want to represent in the recording. (b) I record only when asked to do so by a performer or performing organization--so I get to decide, or at least negotiate, how many mikes to use and where to put them. When I have to record from farther away than the sonically ideal location, either some beauty has to be sacrificed for the sake of clarity (hello MK 41 and/or some kind of M/S pair)--or else imaging has to be given up (or even sabotaged), and then more widely-spaced microphones may come into play as possibilities. Again the MK 21 is definitely an interesting candidate for that kind of recording, but that's not a situation that I'm in often.

P.S.: With all due respect, I don't know of any reason to believe that the polar diagrams for these capsules are wrong in any fundamental way. In particular the MK 21 has the most similar frequency response at all angles of sound incidence of any capsule on "the omni side of cardioid" that Schoeps has ever made. That was a basic principle of this capsule design: to have no off-axis peaks like in a typical cardioid, nor an on-axis peak like an omni, but to dwell at the point where the two effects cancel each other out the best.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 07:23:05 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline daspyknows

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2023, 04:35:57 PM »
About to pull the trigger on a pair of MK21's but wondering about the MK21H's.  Anyone with any experience with the MK21H's?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2023, 05:07:05 PM »
Is an S (or H) variant (indicating a high frequency lift for use at greater distance) of the mk21 a thing? 

If so, knowing something of your recording methodology, the primary question you might ask yourself is likely to be:

How much high frequency attenuation does my "windscreen  ;)" impart?

The other relevant questions are:
How far back is the expected recording position?
Am I averse to gently EQing the high-frequency response of the resulting recording to accommodate the previous to things if necessary?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline daspyknows

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2023, 06:51:48 PM »
Buying these primary for small outdoor venue  >:D recording.   The venues I am thinking I will be 20 to 30 feet from stage.   I am thinking a bit more high frequency boost might not be a bad thing thus the question.  I also noticed a new pair of the MK21H are 10% cheaper than the MK21 but that is not a major consideration.

I don't expect to use these more than 10% or 15% of the time but want the option for those specific times.  I have heard many MK21 recordings but not MK21H recordings.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2023, 07:45:21 PM »
I think you get my drift when I say that you will be the person most intimately familiar with the particulars of your setup / support gear, notably the "windscreening", and how all of that together effects the response of the other Schoeps caps you currently use and are very familiar with.  A high-frequency lift intended to compensate for distance could help compensate for high-frequency attenuation if you feel that is an issue best addressed in such a way. Just suggesting to use that as one of your more informative decision points. You'll recognize that I'm sort of diplomatically talking around some details best not mentioned, but I think that is probably going to be the biggest factor along with personal preference.

I've not used either myself, but in the appropriate situation I very much like what I hear from mk21 generally, and from other top quality subcardioids that are over toward the "directional omni" side of things. Although I realize you are looking for more of a reference from hands-on experience, I hope this viewpoint may be of help.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DSatz

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2023, 12:00:20 AM »
The MK 21 H was taken off the main price list in (IIRC) 2015, and is now available only on special order. I wouldn't recommend it except for what it was designed for, which is spot (i.e. relatively close) miking in a studio; its high-frequency elevation is a shelving boost that isn't suitable compensation for distant recording. Sorry if I caused a distraction by mentioning it!

If someone found it listed on a dealer's price list for a lower price than the standard MK 21, the price list may be severely out of date. I wouldn't count on the capsules being readily available at the lower price if they're actual, new capsules. And please note that you can't get Schoeps' free, 10-year extended warranty on dealer stock that's more than two years out of date.

--In general, the more similar a microphone's polar pattern is at all frequencies, the better it will respond to EQ in post without unwanted side effects. Before purchasing any capsule or microphone that has specially tailored (non-flat) frequency response, I would really suggest experimenting with the flattest available version of it and separate EQ. Otherwise it's a rather large investment based on ... you can't really know what.

Yes, I know that people here are generally averse to EQ, but having it "baked in" to a capsule or microphone isn't really that different from applying it yourself. This strikes me as reminiscent of the classic ethical problem of "what if a train is speeding out of control and headed for five people--would you throw a switch that would make it hit a smaller number of other people instead?" -- a surprising number of people can't stand the idea of throwing the switch and being responsible for anyone's death, even if it's less death than would result from their inaction. Somehow a lot of folks here seem happy to have their manufacturer bake EQ into their microphones--even though it can't be adjusted or turned off, the way real EQ can be. It's a strange attitude to take in the name of "purism", that's for sure.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 12:17:20 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline daspyknows

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2023, 10:19:30 AM »
DSatz, thx for the input.  Was hoping for your thoughts on this.

Offline noahbickart

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2023, 08:24:26 PM »
Here are my Mk22 24bit recordings from the recent Phish Greek run

Location: OTS, DFC
Source: Schoeps mk22 (30cm @ 60 degrees)> Nbob KCY> 30' KCY snake> Naiant PFA> Sound Devices Mixpre6 Channels 1&2 @ 24bit /48khz
Transfer: Sound Devices Mixpre6> MacBook Pro> Sound Studio (Normalize, Fades, & Tracking).

These are Apple Lossless files
 
4/17/23: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L3X142SuWO7bRSwW8hZqZ_HiWEntBmVz (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1L3X142SuWO7bRSwW8hZqZ_HiWEntBmVz)
4/18/23: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Y3GVejYet4B7SUsZjbuSrUTgc0wzZvIX (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Y3GVejYet4B7SUsZjbuSrUTgc0wzZvIX)
4/19/23:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u4eLzRW0fhKOIH-jN8mqYBnWVzG5O9s9 (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1u4eLzRW0fhKOIH-jN8mqYBnWVzG5O9s9)

I concur with Dstaz' comments above. The mk21, in the ideal location in a great sounding room will sound better than the mk22. But the mk22 will produce the better recording in most places.

If I could only own one Schoeps pair it would be the mk22.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 07:33:39 AM by noahbickart »
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
Preamps:    Schoeps VMS 02iub, Naiant IPA, Sound Devices Mixpre6 I
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6 I, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mac Mini> Mytek Brooklyn+> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

Office Playback: iMac> Grace m903> AKG k701 / Hifiman HE-400

Offline jessesbakery

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Re: MK21 vs MK22?
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2023, 05:46:50 AM »
The MK22 is wonderful - very special. I use the MK21 more, but it's because I find the color of the MK22 to be slightly specific. I'm echoing some of wforwumbo's thoughts below as well.

I do album production and location recording, so there are a lot of possibilities I don't know about, but in my experience I have found that:
- in a stereo pair or even as a set of 3 in a small tree, I use the MK21. It's a wonderfully clear, warm and imaged pickup.
- MK21 is warmer, so I use it as an accent (single or pair) for high strings, piano, brass, etc... anytime, I want a FULL midrange
- MK22 has more 'sheen' on the top end, not to say it has more HF, just that it's got more texture up there. I find it incredible for certain vocal settings, or for low strings (that benefit from a little more HF texture), etc...
- if you have experience with both the MK2 and MK2H, then that is a very apt comparison, color-wise - the MK22 sounds more like a 2H (but the 2H is slightly brighter, maybe), the MK21 sounds more like an MK2

I hope that helps! I'm new here, and have enjoyed the wide perspective!
Jesse

 

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