Topic: How to setup mics for live concert (Zoom H1 or Tascam DR-05/07)

[chiman]

Hi,

I’ve recorded some live concerts in the past using a portable MD player and a standard microphone.

Now I’m thinking to buy an affordable portable recorder and doubting between the Zoom H1 and the Tascam DR-05/07 (any feedback are welcome).

What I want to know before I purchase a recorder is how to setup the device when recording in an arena using the internal microphone.  I know it’s better to use an external mic but that’s not in my budget at the moment.

I am thinking about the following options:

-   Use a holder and place the recorder at my waist level
-   Place my recorder in my shirt pocket (breast level)

I am afraid when placing the recorder in my shirt pocket, screaming from the audience (and me) will be recorded or will this be minimized because of the mic’s?

All help for a beginner is welcome.

Thanks in advance!

[F.O.Bean]

You are MUCH better off buying Church Audio external mics and preamp IMO

[aaronji]

Waist level will suck, unless there is nothing between the mics and the stage/stacks.  Breast level will be a bit better, but still sucky.  For the units with cardioids, you'll also have a problem with either of those methods getting the mics "aimed" in the right direction.

I would take Bean's advice and look at an inexpensive pair of external mics...

[pontiacb]

I've used the DR-07 with the internal mics in my breast pocket and got decent results (to my ears) stood close to the stack, so not too many people in the way between me and the source.  Basically get as unobstructed a line of sight between you and the source as you can and you wont go too far wrong.  Agree that waist level isn't likely to give great results.  If you have a load of people between  the mics and the source you'll not get anywhere near as good results in my experience.

As mentioned above you'll get better results with some externals such as Chris Church's mics (which I normally use) and you'll also be able to place them better (higher) more easily.  But for starters give it a go with the internals and see how you get on - you can always add the externals later.  I like the DR-07, but there are loads of similar cheapish recorders out there all with slightly different quirks.  All of them will seem a load easier to use than MDs once you get used to them.  When I got the DR-07 is was bigger than I expected (I use old iRivers which are a lot smaller), but it will just about squeeze in my jacket pocket.

[chiman]

Thanks for all replies!

I've though about a good external mic but my preference at the moment is a ''all-in-one'' device.
I have taped more than 20 shows with my MD in the past just for fun. But to convert the concert on my computer takes some time.

One question about the internal mic's of the Zoom H1 or Tascam DR-05/07.
When recording from my shirt pocket, the mic's will be pointed to the roof and recorded the sound.
Will it also recorded the sound from people standing next to me?
I doubting about this because from what I've read the mic's will recorded the sound which you point at.
 

[aaronji]

^^^ Yes, you'll get the people around you.  Even with directional mics, pointed towards the ceiling, you'll pick up a lot of the surrounding crowd...

[acidjack]

Thanks for all replies!

I've though about a good external mic but my preference at the moment is a ''all-in-one'' device.
I have taped more than 20 shows with my MD in the past just for fun. But to convert the concert on my computer takes some time.

One question about the internal mic's of the Zoom H1 or Tascam DR-05/07.
When recording from my shirt pocket, the mic's will be pointed to the roof and recorded the sound.
Will it also recorded the sound from people standing next to me?
I doubting about this because from what I've read the mic's will recorded the sound which you point at.

Personally, I think it's not worth bothering if you're not going to use external mics and just stick a budget recorder in a shirt pocket.

But if I were doing so, I'd make sure that budget recorder had omnidirectional mics - so that they wouldn't, as you note, be aimed at the ceiling.  Omnis pick up sound from all sides equally; in a shirt pocket they'll obviously not pick up what's behind them (your body), but everything to the sides and in front. 

I don't know how many recordings you've heard done with this method, but they generally sound like crap. PontiacB is an experienced taper and I don't doubt that he's gotten some decent recordings this way, but it's really a pretty bad method. 

If cost is the issue, consider that if you want to have recordings at all, if you go to, say, 10 or 15 concerts a year, it's $10 a concert (or, the price of a couple beers) to have decent mics.  If "convenience" is the issue, the better question is really whether you want to bother with taping at all.  Nothing about taping is "convenient" and doing it right takes a bit of "sacrifice". 

Just my $0.02.

[chiman]

Thanks for all the great feedback so far!

If I buy some 'cheaper' mic's, which one will you recommend me using in combination with my portable MD player?

- SP-BMC-3 - Sound Professionals - Deluxe Binaural microphones http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-3
I assume I have to clip both mic's on my collar of my shirt pointing to the stage boxes

- SP-TFB-2 - Sound Professionals - Low Noise In-Ear Binaural Microphone http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2
Just put them in my ears and enjoy the show?

Since I will go to the shows with friends, does this mean that they shouldn't talk to me during recording?

[acidjack]

Thanks for all the great feedback so far!

If I buy some 'cheaper' mic's, which one will you recommend me using in combination with my portable MD player?

- SP-BMC-3 - Sound Professionals - Deluxe Binaural microphones http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-3
I assume I have to clip both mic's on my collar of my shirt pointing to the stage boxes

- SP-TFB-2 - Sound Professionals - Low Noise In-Ear Binaural Microphone http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2
Just put them in my ears and enjoy the show?

Since I will go to the shows with friends, does this mean that they shouldn't talk to me during recording?

Virtually everyone who stealth tapes well mounts their mics on their head somewhere - on glasses, on a cap, or in some type of hat. 

If you are worried about crowd noise, I'd go with a more directional mic like the Church Audio CA-11 (virtually everyone will recommend Church Audio mics as the go-to for inexpensive mics; the only negative on them, primarily, is longer build time as they're handmade).  From the Sound Professionals, I like these http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2 

However, I note that the SP-CMC-2 are more expensive than the Church Audio mics.  I do like the sound of them, though - a buddy of mine has those and the CA-11 and prefers the CMC-2s.  Church Audio's slightly more expensive and larger model, the CA-14, is a big step up from both of those models, though.

Also note that they, like all small mics pretty much, will require a tiny external power supply.  The smallest, cheapest one is made by (again, surprise surprise) Church Audio.

The absolute smallest, inexpensive mics are the Church Audio CAFS Omni and the Church Audio CA-1.  Last time I checked both retailed at or around $100.  I have some CAFS I am looking to sell but not necessarily trying to steer you in that direction unless a tiny omnidirectional mic is what you are looking for; I'd contact Church Audio on here and discuss your needs with him directly as he is better at explaining and marketing his products than I am.

[chiman]

Thanks for all the great feedback so far!

If I buy some 'cheaper' mic's, which one will you recommend me using in combination with my portable MD player?

- SP-BMC-3 - Sound Professionals - Deluxe Binaural microphones http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-3
I assume I have to clip both mic's on my collar of my shirt pointing to the stage boxes

- SP-TFB-2 - Sound Professionals - Low Noise In-Ear Binaural Microphone http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2
Just put them in my ears and enjoy the show?

Since I will go to the shows with friends, does this mean that they shouldn't talk to me during recording?

Virtually everyone who stealth tapes well mounts their mics on their head somewhere - on glasses, on a cap, or in some type of hat. 

If you are worried about crowd noise, I'd go with a more directional mic like the Church Audio CA-11 (virtually everyone will recommend Church Audio mics as the go-to for inexpensive mics; the only negative on them, primarily, is longer build time as they're handmade).  From the Sound Professionals, I like these http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2 

However, I note that the SP-CMC-2 are more expensive than the Church Audio mics.  I do like the sound of them, though - a buddy of mine has those and the CA-11 and prefers the CMC-2s.  Church Audio's slightly more expensive and larger model, the CA-14, is a big step up from both of those models, though.

Also note that they, like all small mics pretty much, will require a tiny external power supply.  The smallest, cheapest one is made by (again, surprise surprise) Church Audio.

The absolute smallest, inexpensive mics are the Church Audio CAFS Omni and the Church Audio CA-1.  Last time I checked both retailed at or around $100.  I have some CAFS I am looking to sell but not necessarily trying to steer you in that direction unless a tiny omnidirectional mic is what you are looking for; I'd contact Church Audio on here and discuss your needs with him directly as he is better at explaining and marketing his products than I am.

Just to double check: if I use an external mic with my MD player, it's mandatory to use an external battery box for the mic's?

[acidjack]

Thanks for all the great feedback so far!

If I buy some 'cheaper' mic's, which one will you recommend me using in combination with my portable MD player?

- SP-BMC-3 - Sound Professionals - Deluxe Binaural microphones http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-3
I assume I have to clip both mic's on my collar of my shirt pointing to the stage boxes

- SP-TFB-2 - Sound Professionals - Low Noise In-Ear Binaural Microphone http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-TFB-2
Just put them in my ears and enjoy the show?

Since I will go to the shows with friends, does this mean that they shouldn't talk to me during recording?

Virtually everyone who stealth tapes well mounts their mics on their head somewhere - on glasses, on a cap, or in some type of hat. 

If you are worried about crowd noise, I'd go with a more directional mic like the Church Audio CA-11 (virtually everyone will recommend Church Audio mics as the go-to for inexpensive mics; the only negative on them, primarily, is longer build time as they're handmade).  From the Sound Professionals, I like these http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-2 

However, I note that the SP-CMC-2 are more expensive than the Church Audio mics.  I do like the sound of them, though - a buddy of mine has those and the CA-11 and prefers the CMC-2s.  Church Audio's slightly more expensive and larger model, the CA-14, is a big step up from both of those models, though.

Also note that they, like all small mics pretty much, will require a tiny external power supply.  The smallest, cheapest one is made by (again, surprise surprise) Church Audio.

The absolute smallest, inexpensive mics are the Church Audio CAFS Omni and the Church Audio CA-1.  Last time I checked both retailed at or around $100.  I have some CAFS I am looking to sell but not necessarily trying to steer you in that direction unless a tiny omnidirectional mic is what you are looking for; I'd contact Church Audio on here and discuss your needs with him directly as he is better at explaining and marketing his products than I am.

Just to double check: if I use an external mic with my MD player, it's mandatory to use an external battery box for the mic's?

I'm not that familiar with MDs but I believe the answer is yes; others can chime in.

FWIW, if I already had a decent recorder (which I'd say most good MDs are) and I were starting out I would much sooner put my $150 or so into some quality mics and a small BB than buying a portable recorder whose audio and internal electronics are not likely to be any better than the MD.  Obviously SD recorders are convenient; I have a few, and my little M10 is the best $199 recorder money can buy, but if I had something else that worked and I was trying to save cash, the mantra is always "spend money on mics first"

[yltfan]

Since I will go to the shows with friends, does this mean that they shouldn't talk to me during recording?

Unless you want to listen to that conversation over and over, yes. Also, no sneezing, loud burping, laughing, singing along, etc. That goes not just for you and your friends, but for everyone within earshot.

[pontiacb]

PontiacB is an experienced taper and I don't doubt that he's gotten some decent recordings this way, but it's really a pretty bad method. 

Just to clarify I only use the Tascam DR7 in the jacket top pocket with internals as a back up rig and would always advocate externals when possible (I generally use CA14/CA11 cards and his CAFS).  But I have got pretty decent results with this back up rig, but I am generally a stack hugger and it probably wouldn't work as well further back.

I used to tape with MD and used externals (Church CA11 cards) via a battery box to line in which is generally the way to go, so as acidjack says spending the cash on some decent external mics/BB and retaining your MD for a bit is another option as, as mentioned the mics are really the most important thing in the chain.  But once you've gone away from MD you won't want to go back as all the hassle of getting the recording onto the PC etc disappears with the new recorders.

[anr]

My advice would be to strike a deal with Acidjack for his CAFS.  Best buy I've ever made (given open taping is seldom an option here).

But a product I was pleasantly surprised with for acoustic gigs was the Sound Pro BMC-2.  $59 at the moment, but a few months ago he had them on sale for $10.  Cheap, by no means top quality, but very good recordings at low levels.  I always carry a back up recorder (H2) in a pouch, with these clipped to the front, just in case I get a chance to stage tape. 

[F.O.Bean]

Just buy Church Audio CA14s and a CA/SP Battery Box and trust us

[chiman]

Will check this weekend which external mic to buy

Thanks all for the great feedback!

[pontiacb]

In case anyone is interested, here's a mp3 of a song (Joy Formidable) recorded with both the DR-07's internals in my jacket pocket (my backup rig which I use at important gigs only just in case of cock ups) and with CA11s (mounted on jacket collar)>BB>iRiver.  I was stood next to the stack.  I think it shows the DR-07's internals do a pretty good job.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/o88x4r (DR07 internals)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pels1q  (CA11s)