Topic: Which cardioid microphones for classical music stealthing?

[gorlando]

I tape classical music in stealth mode, with my DPA 4060 (and Sony M10, my latest buy). I am very satisfied of these mics.
However, the upgrade "bug" is always around... I was wondering if cardio mics would be any better for large auditorium, when I cannot be close to the orchestra. Which mics would the TS friends recommend? Have to be small (not very good for cardioids, I know) since stealth is a must. They have to be of a comparable quality to my 4060 and should not cost a fortune.
I have looked for info on TS, I see the CA-11 and  SP-CMC-8 have a lot of followers. But several people tape loud, amplified music, often in front of stacks. This is not my case, I tape only non-amplified music, with a large dynamic range and not so loud a crowd. Therefore, if I cannot get a result similar to my 4060, then I'll stick to omni and kill the "bug".

I'd also like some advice on how to place the mics. I wear the 4060's on a pair of eyeglasses, they are so small. Maybe this would not be feasible with larger cardios. What could be a reasonable stealth arrangement? I cannot go with a baseball cap to a classical concert, though.

Thank you for your help.
Govanni

[fmaderjr]

I was wondering if cardio mics would be any better for large auditorium, when I cannot be close to the orchestra. Which mics would the TS friends recommend? Have to be small (not very good for cardioids, I know) since stealth is a must. They have to be of a comparable quality to my 4060 and should not cost a fortune.

Cardioids in the price range of CA-11's or SP-CMC-8's can't be expected to be of comparable quality to DPA 4060's, both because cards in the same price range as omnis normally give up a good bit of bass response and because these mics are nowhere near the price range of the 4060's (which can cost around $1000 for a new pair).

That said, I think the CA-11's and SP-CMC-8's are fine mics for the money and can easily be fastened to glasses (though if you're worried about them being noticed, that's a different story). Another thing for you to think about is that CA-11's are much less sensitive than your DPA 4060's, so you may find that you need a preamp with them instead of a battery box. In contrast, I believe that the SP-CMC-8's are of similar sensitivity to the 4060's if they don't have the 4.7 mod.

[F.O.Bean]

I would also look into ca14 cards/omnis as well. I have used many diff mics in my 16 years of taping, and I am about to buy yet another pair of ca14s. They are damn fine mics for the money but may be too big for what you're doing! There aren't many mics that are smaller and more expensive/better than your 4060s. The ca11s are roughly the same size but I don't think they are of the same quality. I would either stick with the 4060s and continue to clip them onto your glasses, or go a bit bigger micwise and wear an Italian style hat like a nice kangol like I have, and upgrade to more expensive mics, which you said you didn't want to do. So pretty much you're limited to what you have. If I were you I'd buy a pair of ca14 cards and you'd be set for an occasion!

[gorlando]

I tend to agree with both replies, I should consider either the CA-14 or maybe the DPA 4080 or, probably better, the 4081.
I cannot keep an hat during a concert, it would look weird. I should find another solution, in the past I have fixed mics differently and I could resume this way.
What about a comparison among the 3 mics I mentioned above? Is the CA-14 comparable to the DPA's for classical music (low noise, high dynamics)? And in the DPA family (much more expensive), any opinion?
Finally, is it worth considering the cardioid way or there is no substantial advantage vs my omni's? 

[ilduclo]

I think you'll have to go way above the church mics in price to get comparable to the dpa's. All that being said, I think if you have a good respectful audience, your dpa omni recordings will outperform most of the cards, IMO

[acidjack]

I think you'll have to go way above the church mics in price to get comparable to the dpa's. All that being said, I think if you have a good respectful audience, your dpa omni recordings will outperform most of the cards, IMO

This.

Unless you want to move to DPA 402x, Schoeps, Milabs or the various other mics in that size category, I'd think the 4060s are about perfect for what you are doing.

[yousef]

I think the benefits of cards in rejecting audience noise are often overstated.

I find their major benefit is in reducing the effect of unfortunate reflections in the room: something I suspect isn't as much of a problem in classical venues as it is in the sort of places amplified music gets played in.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I think you'll have to go way above the church mics in price to get comparable to the dpa's. All that being said, I think if you have a good respectful audience, your dpa omni recordings will outperform most of the cards, IMO

This.

Unless you want to move to DPA 402x, Schoeps, Milabs or the various other mics in that size category, I'd think the 4060s are about perfect for what you are doing.

Agreed as well.

I think the benefits of cards in rejecting audience noise are often overstated.

Just from my personal experience, I can't agree with that.  I've had my stealthy cards save my bacon on a few occasions when I've been taping at a few "chatty kathy" fests and the only option I had was to move a few feet and put the offending audience slightly behind or to the side of me.  Made a world of difference and, to me, it was worth not having the higher sound quality of DPA omnis (or other omnis) rather than a tape full of some douchebag's mundane conversation.  YMMV, etc.

[gorlando]

Thank you to all, I think I'll kill the "bug" (for now...) and continue with my present rig. The audience in normally silent (except coughing - it seems all wait for the pianissimo to cough - and of course applause - at times there is a race to appalude first).
I cannot justify spending a lot of money for a 40xx or Schoeps, so I stick to my 4060, which I bought new a few year ago and paid very little compared with the prices now going.

I'll dedicate my effort and a bit more money to get as close as possible to the orchestra and to the center. As somebody already wrote here, the front seats are not the most sought after, so I have often the chance to sit there.

Maybe I'll buy some not-so-expensive cardioids, to see how do they sound.
The CA-14 seem a good option, as the SP-CMC-8, any suggestion here?
Is it possible to have the CA-14's without their windscreens? They should be more stealthy so...
 
I should also experiment some other mic placement, at present I am getting music which is very good for listening through headphones, but the ambience is lost with loudspeakers. But this would be another Post.

[fmaderjr]

I think the benefits of cards in rejecting audience noise are often overstated.

Just from my personal experience, I can't agree with that.  I've had my stealthy cards save my bacon on a few occasions when I've been taping at a few "chatty kathy" fests and the only option I had was to move a few feet and put the offending audience slightly behind or to the side of me.  Made a world of difference and, to me, it was worth not having the higher sound quality of DPA omnis (or other omnis) rather than a tape full of some douchebag's mundane conversation.  YMMV, etc.

Agreed 100%. Also if I am recording music that is very quiet at times, cards do a much better job job of reducing coughs, chairs squeaking, etc. behind me.

For that reason I tend to use my CA-14 & AT853 cards, way more often than my DPA4060's even though the DPA's are even better mics.

The first time I switched from omnis to cards I was astounded by how much the chatter I picked up was reduced and for me, too much chatter absolutely ruins a recording.

[yousef]

Interesting.

I think it depends on the sort of music you're taping. I tend towards amplified indie/rock/folk sort of things where the slightly more distant chatter and noise is mainly hidden by the volume of the music. The big annoyance in these situations is the close-proximity talker, and cards, imho, do little to ameliorate this.

For me, if you're taping classical music in well-designed auditorium with a well-behaved crowd, omnis are a no-brainer. I would think that the sonic costs of using cards of this size and price-point would be greater than the benefits.

But, for the money, I'd grab a pair of AT-853s or CA-14s anyway - great mics to have in and pretty much unbeatable at the price.

[H₂O]

mk4 > lemosax

[F.O.Bean]

mk4 > lemosax

100pct agreed

[jbell]

MK4> Tinybox(output transformers)  is a great stealth setup

[Roger Gustavsson]

I'd also like some advice on how to place the mics. I wear the 4060's on a pair of eyeglasses, they are so small. Maybe this would not be feasible with larger cardios. What could be a reasonable stealth arrangement? I cannot go with a baseball cap to a classical concert, though.

Thank you for your help.
Govanni

The standard while recording classical music is, high up just behind the conductor - not very stealthy! If you are further away, you will have a lot of "room" on the recording. It can sound too distant, instruments further away will not come through. Is it symphonic orchestra you like to record? That will be very difficult from the audience. A smaller ensemble is easier but stealth can still be very difficult. Cardioid can sound thin at a distance, need for some EQ afterwards.

[SmokinJoe]

I have had good luck with AT853's. A lot of people prefer them sonically to the AT933 (CMC8), including me.  I have 4061's and DSM's now, but really that's all about experimentation... if I wanted cards I would reach for 853's in a heartbeat.  Whether that's a downgrade is in the ear of the beholder. A used pair with card caps terminated to miniplug is pretty common in the yard sale, probably in the $100-200 range.  At that price point you can try them, and if you don't like them you can resell them without loosing much.

A friend of mine has SP CMC-25's, they are a directional and small enough in diameter for croakies.  They are not my favorite flavor... but you might like them.
http://archive.org/search.php?query=%22CMC-25%22

I won't discuss how I have worn my AT853's on the board for the world so see, but will send you a PM with my experience.

[Gutbucket]

The audience in normally silent (except coughing - it seems all wait for the pianissimo to cough - and of course applause - at times there is a race to appalude first).

So true. No one ever seems to cough during the loud movements or during applause, and very rarely before and after the pieces when the orchestra is tuning or people are simply talking and waiting.  People also seem to wait for the pianissimo sections to rummage through purses and open candy wrappers.

I'll dedicate my effort and a bit more money to get as close as possible to the orchestra and to the center. As somebody already wrote here, the front seats are not the most sought after, so I have often the chance to sit there.

 
^^^^^^^^
This will offer the best return on money spent by far, Period.  Regardles of new recording gear or not.
Location, location, location.

I should also experiment some other mic placement, at present I am getting music which is very good for listening through headphones, but the ambience is lost with loudspeakers. But this would be another Post.

Stick with the 4060's, but experiment with a few different setups- I'll send a PM later this week when I get finished with a trade show which outlines a few unusual but highly effective techniques which work exceptionally well for this.

[gorlando]

mk4 > lemosax

I have studied a bit and realize Schoeps is probably the best mic for taping an orchestra from some distance. In particular I like the CCM41L, hypercardioids, very compact, very expensive...
Assuming I can find a used pair at a reasonably low price (patience...a lot of it, I guess), what else would I need to feed them and get their signal to my recorder?

[acidjack]

mk4 > lemosax

I have studied a bit and realize Schoeps is probably the best mic for taping an orchestra from some distance. In particular I like the CCM41L, hypercardioids, very compact, very expensive...
Assuming I can find a used pair at a reasonably low price (patience...a lot of it, I guess), what else would I need to feed them and get their signal to my recorder?

The simplest setup with the CCM41s would be a deck that provides phantom power and has decent preamps, something like the Roland R-26 or Tascam DR-100mkII.  For classical the specs of the internal pres will matter more than it does in most genres since you want a nice low noise floor. 

Not sure what your definition of "reasonable" is, but CCMs will be thousands of dollars/euros even used.

It's worth noting that something like a set of MK41 capsules, plus active cables and a preamp of some kind, will cost much less and be more versatile. For classical, I'd actually recommend something like the MK41s with the NBox.  The NBox is heavier and larger than some of the newer options, but I think it is the best sounding of the Schoeps custom solutions.  The NBoxes come with custom active cables that go into that box.  So get a small deck like a Sony M10 or what you're already using, and it's just MK41>active cables>NBox>deck

[gorlando]

I have looked at the MK41 + active cable way and, while the cost of the capsules (used) is quite reasonable, I find the cost of the active cable (KCY) otrageous! If I understand well, it does not amplify anything, it just splits and routes the power supply from the preamp to the capsules and conveys the capsules signal to the preamp. If this is correct, why should it cost that much?

Any idea to build a DIY KCY cable instead? I realize the connector to the capsule is peculiar of Schoeps, but there should / could be a way to get around this problem, isn't it?

I thought DPA's costs excessive, but Schoeps' are far higher!

[F.O.Bean]

I have looked at the MK41 + active cable way and, while the cost of the capsules (used) is quite reasonable, I find the cost of the active cable (KCY) otrageous! If I understand well, it does not amplify anything, it just splits and routes the power supply from the preamp to the capsules and conveys the capsules signal to the preamp. If this is correct, why should it cost that much?

Any idea to build a DIY KCY cable instead? I realize the connector to the capsule is peculiar of Schoeps, but there should / could be a way to get around this problem, isn't it?

I thought DPA's costs excessive, but Schoeps' are far higher!

The KCY cable cuts out the Schoeps bodies, so that saves u a grand right there Yes, a KCY is expensive, but def the best money Ive spent in awhile And NO they are NOT homemade. Vark Audio sells them for just a LIL cheaper than the Schoeps ones. But if youre going to spend that kind of money, Id do whatg I did and get the "real" Schoeps one

[acidjack]

I have looked at the MK41 + active cable way and, while the cost of the capsules (used) is quite reasonable, I find the cost of the active cable (KCY) otrageous! If I understand well, it does not amplify anything, it just splits and routes the power supply from the preamp to the capsules and conveys the capsules signal to the preamp. If this is correct, why should it cost that much?

Any idea to build a DIY KCY cable instead? I realize the connector to the capsule is peculiar of Schoeps, but there should / could be a way to get around this problem, isn't it?

I thought DPA's costs excessive, but Schoeps' are far higher!

The KCY cable cuts out the Schoeps bodies, so that saves u a grand right there Yes, a KCY is expensive, but def the best money Ive spent in awhile And NO they are NOT homemade. Vark Audio sells them for just a LIL cheaper than the Schoeps ones. But if youre going to spend that kind of money, Id do whatg I did and get the "real" Schoeps one

What Bean said, more or less. Schoeps stuff is expensive.  The main component of the KCY cable is the junction box that splits the signal, which can be bought and wired up yourself. But once you've done that, you end up pretty close to what Schoeps charges.  You can buy used KCYs from time to time for $500 or so on here.

Your other option, as I said, is the NBox and its proprietary cables.  While it is heavier and larger than newer stuff that runs KCY, and uses 9V batteries, I think that the difference in sound quality, especially for a demanding application like classical, would be noticed. 

[F.O.Bean]

I have looked at the MK41 + active cable way and, while the cost of the capsules (used) is quite reasonable, I find the cost of the active cable (KCY) otrageous! If I understand well, it does not amplify anything, it just splits and routes the power supply from the preamp to the capsules and conveys the capsules signal to the preamp. If this is correct, why should it cost that much?

Any idea to build a DIY KCY cable instead? I realize the connector to the capsule is peculiar of Schoeps, but there should / could be a way to get around this problem, isn't it?

I thought DPA's costs excessive, but Schoeps' are far higher!

The KCY cable cuts out the Schoeps bodies, so that saves u a grand right there Yes, a KCY is expensive, but def the best money Ive spent in awhile And NO they are NOT homemade. Vark Audio sells them for just a LIL cheaper than the Schoeps ones. But if youre going to spend that kind of money, Id do whatg I did and get the "real" Schoeps one

What Bean said, more or less. Schoeps stuff is expensive.  The main component of the KCY cable is the junction box that splits the signal, which can be bought and wired up yourself. But once you've done that, you end up pretty close to what Schoeps charges.  You can buy used KCYs from time to time for $500 or so on here.

Your other option, as I said, is the NBox and its proprietary cables.  While it is heavier and larger than newer stuff that runs KCY, and uses 9V batteries, I think that the difference in sound quality, especially for a demanding application like classical, would be noticed. 

I would mention a Lemosax, like I have, but theyre damn near IMPOSSIBLE to find. Thats why I'll NEVER sell mine Plus, if you get the KCY, you can have Naiant Studio build you a pair of PFAs[Phantom Power Adapters] so you can run ANY +48v Phantom preamp with your KCY Cable

Best of luck regardless of what you choose!

[acidjack]

BTW, uncleyug is selling an NBox+ with cables right now for $1400.  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=158118.0

Solid price, add another $1000 or so worth of caps and you are good to go.  The NBox+ probably sounds as good as anything out there.  That classic circuit design in that thing is proven.

[F.O.Bean]

BTW, uncleyug is selling an NBox+ with cables right now for $1400.  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=158118.0

Solid price, add another $1000 or so worth of caps and you are good to go.  The NBox+ probably sounds as good as anything out there.  That classic circuit design in that thing is proven.

100% agreed!

[gorlando]

I'd prefer a KCY active cable, buy a Nayant pre to feed the mics and connect it to my M-10. The KCY cable costs 900$ new, the pre 220$ (plus postage). Then I'd need the capsules....
I put an Ad in the Yard Sale, let's see if someone is looking to sell a KCY and capsules.

I find the KCY active cable too expensive. I'll look better on TS on the subject and eventually start a new post to build an active cable for Schoeps capsules. I guess with the expertize available here it should be possible....but this is another post.

[jbell]

You can order a new KCY cable from Vark audio for $750!!  They use a different junction box, but I didn't notice any difference in quality. 

I'd prefer a KCY active cable, buy a Nayant pre to feed the mics and connect it to my M-10. The KCY cable costs 900$ new, the pre 220$ (plus postage). Then I'd need the capsules....
I put an Ad in the Yard Sale, let's see if someone is looking to sell a KCY and capsules.

I find the KCY active cable too expensive. I'll look better on TS on the subject and eventually start a new post to build an active cable for Schoeps capsules. I guess with the expertize available here it should be possible....but this is another post.

[gorlando]

I found a KCY cable 
I think I'll get a Tinybox to feed my Sony M-10

Then I have to find the caps... Which way to go? X-Y? M-S? MK4? MK41? MK8? Any suggestion?
It will depend on what comes on the market, though I can wait...

If someone would like to share with me their tricks for stealthing with these mics, please send me a PM, I'd appreciate it.

[followinbob]

buy an n box from nick. screw the niant box.

[Brian Skalinder]

buy an n box from nick. screw the niant box.

Buy the Tinybox from Jon.  Screw the spitty NBox. 

[F.O.Bean]

i agree that the lbYtbs are just as good as any pre out there

[followinbob]

no worries jon.  i just like the n box.

[audBall]

Make sure you wear gloves when you do repairs. 

[acidjack]

^^ Those preamps and mics are awfully small, too... 

[F.O.Bean]

I just want to say something about Jon. He is the BEST out there in terms of quality and service, BAR NONE! So take that bob

[bombdiggity]

Then I have to find the caps... Which way to go? X-Y? M-S? MK4? MK41? MK8? Any suggestion?
It will depend on what comes on the market, though I can wait...

MK4V for unamplified music - especially strings.  They are the best for strings. 

X-Y