Topic: DPA 4021's > Microtrack MT 24/96 Powering Options

[danlynch]

Please move this to "Remote Power" if appropriate

Well, my new upgraded stealth rig should be taking shape this week.  I have a pair of dpa 4021's coming in this week or early next, and I'm looking into phantom power options.  The Microtrack can not power these particular mics, so the options seem to be the following:


Core Sound 2Phant:
http://www.core-sound.com/2Phant/1.php

A bit pricey, and I'm not crazy about the partially exposed 9v's.  Would also need an adapter cable from the 2Phant to the MT.


Sonic Studios PA-10XP:
http://www.sonicstudios.com/pa_x.htm#microtrack

Again, a bit pricey, but seems to be quite compact and convenient.  Would seem to need an adapter cable from the dpa's to the power unit.  The website is a bit of a mess, and more photos are needed of the unit.


Church Audio ST-9100:
http://tinyurl.com/2v7asm

Nice price, excellent service.  However, this is a pre-amp (not strictly necessary for the dpa 4021's), and seems to need adapter cables on both ends to make it work.



Questions:
Do I have any other options?
Anyone with experience with this set-up/these particular options?
At this point, I can't afford to buy the 722.  Are there other digital recorders in the similar price-range to the MT that can power these mics?

Any advice, help, ideas, would be much appreciated.

[dgodwin]

http://www.denecke.com/prod04.htm#PS2

Why don't you need a preamp though? 

[danlynch]

Thanks for the link!


With regard to the pre-amp issue, this is from the DPA site:

"The DPA 4021 is a phantom powered (P48) condenser microphone using the same type of cartridge as the famous DPA 4011, but is preamplified using a built-in ultra-small thick-film mounted FET-preamplifier. The result is the world's smallest studio quality cardioid condenser microphone, that runs directly on phantom power with no external preamplifier needed."


Another user on this site plugs his 4021's directly into the 722 with excellent results.

[Javier Cinakowski]

Dan, I think DPA is saying that the external preamplifier = microphone body.  You still need a preamp....

The 722 has phantom, preamp , adc and recorder all in one box...

[scb]

you could get a cheap option like a used MP-2 or something.  Before I got the 722, 4022 > mp2 > d100 was my stealth rig and I think I made plenty of nice tapes


edit:  i guess i should have said "cheaper than a new preamp"

[dgodwin]

I think Windorabug has the information right.  That said, you could probably get away from using a preamp, if you used a phantom power device, and some transformers, similar to these:  http://www.hosatech.com/hosa/products/mit_transformers.html   but why would you want to do that to the nice DPAs?   Get a MP2 and be happy!

[danlynch]

Good advice, and thanks for helping with my misconceptions.

On the few occasions when I successfully stealthed with my Apogee Mini-me (yes I did!), I was able to get through security at the door with a clever excuse (which I can't reveal in public).  The MP2 doesn't look all that much smaller than the mini-me, so adding another accessory (and more power issues, and more cables) sort of defeats the purpose and doesn't really provide the "super" stealth set-up I'm aiming for.

If a pre-amp is completely necessary, then the options remain to upgrade the recorder.  Does the Marantz PMD 660 and/or 670 provide the type of pre-amp capabilities that the 722 does? 

Otherwise, I guess pre-amp wise I'd need something tiny like this:
http://www.core-sound.com/Mic2496/1.php

[gewwang]

If you're going to select gear based on size without even listening to it, why did you spend whatever you did for 4021s?

[Nick's Picks]

AKG, Rolls, Neumann are also options for a two channel DC operated p48 source.
all of them are going to be balanced I/O, and you will need a balanced XLR>TRS cable to interface w/the MT, no matter which you use (add the denecke to that list).
IMO, the Denecke PS2 is hard to beat.  Very small, and superbly built. 

[dgodwin]

I think the Deneke plus a set of the transformers into the microtrack would be the best way to go.  I did that going into a SBM-1, and always had enough gain.  You might be able to get by without using the transformers, but I wouldn't know for sure. 

[danlynch]

If you're going to select gear based on size without even listening to it, why did you spend whatever you did for 4021s?

I'm not sure what you mean.  I've listened to many recordings made with 4021/22's.  The very point of the these particular microphones is the high quality performance in a miniature size.

[Javier Cinakowski]

DPA 4021-> ACM 660   

That would be tits!!

[gewwang]

If you're going to select gear based on size without even listening to it, why did you spend whatever you did for 4021s?

I'm not sure what you mean.  I've listened to many recordings made with 4021/22's.  The very point of the these particular microphones is the high quality performance in a miniature size.

Sorry, let me clarify.

The 402x's are fairly expensive. It's a pretty major investment in terms of taping gear when you can get very good results as alot of people do running at853s in comparison for like 10% of the price of the 402x's.

So I'm just questioning why the price of the preamp is a factor if you've already made the commitment on 4021's. IMO, you'd be happier with at853 into an mp2, psp2, psp3, aerco or sonosax than 4021s>denecke ps-2 for a bunch less of an investment.

[danlynch]

Ok, I understand your point now.  While I did refer to certain items as "pricey" in the first post, that's not a question of my affordability but rather a comparison against the similar items.  From the information subsequently provided, the denecke ps-2 is a far more reasonable priced item than either the 2Phant or Sonic Studios options. 

In terms of cost of a pre-amp, that's really also not the issue.  I can afford to pay $350-400 for an mp2.  The problem is more the issue of size and adding extra components.

The only thing I can't afford at this point is to upgrade to a 722.

Finally, with regard to at853 recordings, I've heard plenty of them, and let's just say we can agree to disagree on the quality of those recordings.

If you're going to select gear based on size without even listening to it, why did you spend whatever you did for 4021s?

I'm not sure what you mean.  I've listened to many recordings made with 4021/22's.  The very point of the these particular microphones is the high quality performance in a miniature size.

Sorry, let me clarify.

The 402x's are fairly expensive. It's a pretty major investment in terms of taping gear when you can get very good results as alot of people do running at853s in comparison for like 10% of the price of the 402x's.

So I'm just questioning why the price of the preamp is a factor if you've already made the commitment on 4021's. IMO, you'd be happier with at853 into an mp2, psp2, psp3, aerco or sonosax than 4021s>denecke ps-2 for a bunch less of an investment.

[danlynch]

DPA 4021-> ACM 660   

That would be tits!!

You guys, you keep making me look stuff up 

You're talking about this item:

http://tinyurl.com/27tmzm


Hm.  Now that's an idea.

[scb]

The MP2 doesn't look all that much smaller than the mini-me, so adding another accessory (and more power issues, and more cables) sort of defeats the purpose and doesn't really provide the "super" stealth set-up I'm aiming for.

just an fyi, the mp2 is a hell of a lot smaller than a minime and can be powered by internal AA's

mp2: 1.7 x 3.7 x 5.5
minime: 1.5 x 5.4 x 9.8

it's half the size

not telling you have to do it, but just clearing that up

[Shawn]

DPA 4021-> ACM 660   

That would be tits!!

You guys, you keep making me look stuff up 

You're talking about this item:

http://tinyurl.com/27tmzm


Hm.  Now that's an idea.

IMO that's a much better solution than PS2 > microtracker.

[danlynch]

Thanks for the post, Tim.

At this point, it would appear that the best 2 options would be a stealthy pre-amp or an ACM-660.
I have a lot to think about.

Again, the speed and the depth of information available on this board amazes me.  Thanks to all

[Colin Liston]

The Microtrack 24/96 HAS phantom power and can power the DPA 402x series, including the 4021.  Why not just use the microtracker and no preamp?

[Nick's Picks]

ACM 660.
no mess
no wires
no expenses (you'll never need more than a 4gb CF card) and will rival or surpass any of those preamps mentioned (paired up the the MT).
perfect little stealth deck.

[danlynch]

ACM 660.
no mess
no wires
no expenses (you'll never need more than a 4gb CF card) and will rival or surpass any of those preamps mentioned (paired up the the MT).
perfect little stealth deck.

I woke up this morning thinking about this, and deciding that giving Doug a call was
in my near future!

[Nick's Picks]

agreed

[Nick Graham]

it'd be analogous to buying a '72 nova and dropping a 4 cylinder motor in it for power. 

I have nothing to add to this conversation other than my first car was a sky blue '72 Nova with a 350.

Not the car for a drunken 16 year old....

[danlynch]

Well the mics are in.  And I must say they're bigger than I thought they'd be.  I'm thinking now through hat-mounting options.  I'll probably take these out a few times in non-stealth settings (the mic cable terminates in a standard xlr which fits nicely into the Mini-me) before working up to the stealth-necessary events planned for May.

In terms of the powering/pre-amp'ing options, I'm pretty sure I'm going the the 660, although from what I read, the Marantz decks do not do 24-bit.

[danlynch]

Sell the Neummies?!? 'Dem's fighting words, my friend.

[bluntforcetrauma]

2 cents

denecke PS2

stealth as hell.

works great with my set up

control the gain thru the MT

[Nick's Picks]

personaly, I wouldnt go for the 671 just for the extra bits.

it really depends on what you are recording.  if you are just taping PAs and jambands, there isn't any "good" info floating in the air that requires 24bit anything to capture in full detail.
some minor spacial clues, IMO are not worth the added expense or hassles.

[danlynch]

Just to update this topic....
Today I ordered the Marantz PMD-660 (Oade Basic Concert Mod).  Doug was as patient
and helpful as could be, and I should have this baby in hand on Friday.

Many thanks for all the extremely helpful information posted in this topic.  This board rocks.

[danlynch]

Just to update this topic....
Today I ordered the Marantz PMD-660 (Oade Basic Concert Mod).  Doug was as patient
and helpful as could be, and I should have this baby in hand on Friday.

Many thanks for all the extremely helpful information posted in this topic.  This board rocks.

Finally, got this rig out tonight.  Graham Parker with a 5-piece rock band in the Knitting
Factory.  The DPA's are beautiful.  The BCM, not.  This kind of setting was a nice test
for the rig, and it can't handle the high volume/small club/upfront setting.  There is significant
clipping/crackling/distortion at the higher volumes (levels are fine), which means to me that
the BCM pre-amp doesn't have enough head room to handle a hot signal from powerful mics
like the 4021's.
I've sent an email to Doug about "upgrading" to the ACM.  I really hope that the ACM
solves the problem, because otherwise I'm going to have to go back to the
DPAs>preamp>MT scenario that I had avoided for a more streamlined approach.

I'm going to do a DPA 4021 > Apogee Mini-me > MT (non-stealth) set-up in a small
club (more acoustic act) this Sunday to give the DPAs another test run.

[ford prefect]

There is significant
clipping/crackling/distortion at the higher volumes (levels are fine), which means to me that
the BCM pre-amp doesn't have enough head room to handle a hot signal from powerful mics
like the 4021's.

Before you pump more money into it, you should probably talk to Doug about this first.  From his website:

The Basic Concert MOD is designed to optimize recording quality on the 660 for music recording. This MOD differs from the Basic MOD in that it allows for a much higher input level via the microphone XLR inputs that allows the recordist to use a very high output condenser microphone without fear of input overload or clipping while further reducing the noise floor.

My advice: Give him a ring first and ask for his opinion on your problem.  Just upgrading to the ACM might not be the fix.

[Nick's Picks]

did you run the pad ? as Doug always recommends w/that deck?

[danlynch]

Yes, I did send email to Doug, as I noted, about the ACM. 

What is the "pad"?

[Church-Audio]

You can scratch my preamp off the list its not designed to work with phantom powered mics. Unless you use an external phantom supply.. I would go with a UA-5 if your looking for cheap and easy for now until you can afford a better preamp. Just my two cents..

Chris

[Nick's Picks]

the "pad" is a -20db attenuator that he recommends being ENGAGED when recording rock-and/or-roll.
personally, I never ran it with mine (140s>acm660), but many people do.  it is the way he thinks it should be done.

[Nick Graham]

Something's definitely up with the BCM 660, as the DPAs are by no means high output mics. People here run Schoeps straight into the 660, so there should be no issue with 4021s.

[danlynch]

the "pad" is a -20db attenuator that he recommends being ENGAGED when recording rock-and/or-roll.
personally, I never ran it with mine (140s>acm660), but many people do.  it is the way he thinks it should be done.

Bingo.  Doug's reply email to me was exactly that, and indeed I did not have the  "MIC ATTN" set for -20dB but rather for 0.  Live and learn.  Hope this is the simple solution.

[danlynch]

Saaaweeet, and so damned simple.  Recorded tonight, with the -20db set and voila! its damned perfect.  The DPA's shine, and the 660 handles all the peaks without any hint of overload.  Thanks to Doug, Nick, and Tim for the information on the simple fix.

All set for 2 months of non-stop recording!

[jhirte]

The Microtrack 24/96 HAS phantom power and can power the DPA 402x series, including the 4021.  Why not just use the microtracker and no preamp?

using the microtrack and its phantom power is scary. I almost had a fire in my pants at Slayer last year running AT853rx -> MT.  granted, after I got a new battery installed (thanks M-Audio) its worked fine the two times I've run the at's directly, I would hate to think about running DPA's into it. My guess is the DPA's would have more demand of the phantom then the AT's...  not worth running the risk of a blazing inferno. A reasonably priced pre would definetly be a good call in this situation. not only to complement the mics with something more than what the MT's own capabilities are , but for a safety point!

I'd say Aerco or SD MP2 would definetly be a good call.
-Jim

[danlynch]

3rd time out with this rig last night...and there was much rejoicing. 

Not a popular artist on this board, but if you want to sample, its here:

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=145235