Topic: Edirol R-44 - Solid State 4 channel recorder

[Roving Sign]

Im already finding four track recording to be way too much of a PITA...post-production wise...So - Im just about back to two track.

Unless this thing can measure up to a stock Fostex FR2-LE - preamp-wise - forget it...No way Im getting a unit that has to be "modded" just to give it basic functionality...

Not knocking the modders - but I like to think of mods as taking something that works well - like the Fostex FR2-LE and making it better...not taking something that is basically useless stock and making it useful once modded.

the previous edirol units (r-4 and r-44) are far from useless without modification.

Im under the impression these are preamp-weak - more for speech.

[stirinthesauce]

Im already finding four track recording to be way too much of a PITA...post-production wise...So - Im just about back to two track.

Unless this thing can measure up to a stock Fostex FR2-LE - preamp-wise - forget it...No way Im getting a unit that has to be "modded" just to give it basic functionality...

Not knocking the modders - but I like to think of mods as taking something that works well - like the Fostex FR2-LE and making it better...not taking something that is basically useless stock and making it useful once modded.

the previous edirol units (r-4 and r-44) are far from useless without modification.

Im under the impression these are preamp-weak - more for speech.

Interesting new thread over at GS.  Apparently, a remotester picked up a 744t to replace his r4pro.  After A-Bing in a studio setup with a u87, he preferred the r4 pro in every way.  I think he even posted a sample.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/174022-edirol-pro-4-better-sound-than-sound-devices-744t.html

Take the comp fwiw, but very interesting nonetheless.

[rowjimmy]

Im already finding four track recording to be way too much of a PITA...post-production wise...So - Im just about back to two track.

Unless this thing can measure up to a stock Fostex FR2-LE - preamp-wise - forget it...No way Im getting a unit that has to be "modded" just to give it basic functionality...

Not knocking the modders - but I like to think of mods as taking something that works well - like the Fostex FR2-LE and making it better...not taking something that is basically useless stock and making it useful once modded.

There'd be two, two channels recordings, of every concert, if I had one.

I'd likely use the spare channels in this way, myself. I am rarely the only taper when I tape and the ability to get a patch from another rig while running my own mics appeals to me. Also, I could use this at home for various purposes...

[Roving Sign]

Im already finding four track recording to be way too much of a PITA...post-production wise...So - Im just about back to two track.

Unless this thing can measure up to a stock Fostex FR2-LE - preamp-wise - forget it...No way Im getting a unit that has to be "modded" just to give it basic functionality...

Not knocking the modders - but I like to think of mods as taking something that works well - like the Fostex FR2-LE and making it better...not taking something that is basically useless stock and making it useful once modded.

the previous edirol units (r-4 and r-44) are far from useless without modification.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83100.msg1113741.html#msg1113741

This user seems to testify to my point (although he has the opposite opinion) - he makes it work - but has to use on-mic pads...

For clarity: I speaking from the perspective of recording rock bands, gererally in bars and clubs...

[Roving Sign]

Im already finding four track recording to be way too much of a PITA...post-production wise...So - Im just about back to two track.

Unless this thing can measure up to a stock Fostex FR2-LE - preamp-wise - forget it...No way Im getting a unit that has to be "modded" just to give it basic functionality...

Not knocking the modders - but I like to think of mods as taking something that works well - like the Fostex FR2-LE and making it better...not taking something that is basically useless stock and making it useful once modded.

the previous edirol units (r-4 and r-44) are far from useless without modification.

Also - this post...I mean - even a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input???...without pads???

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92387.msg1234760.html#msg1234760

Not picking on the poster here - you do what you have to do...but I have never come a across a RCA out that was too hot for anything...particularly an XLR input...

This is the kind of stuff that scares me away from these units...

[Shawn]

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83100.msg1113741.html#msg1113741

This user seems to testify to my point (although he has the opposite opinion) - he makes it work - but has to use on-mic pads...

For clarity: I speaking from the perspective of recording rock bands, gererally in bars and clubs...

he testifies to your point by completely disagreeing with you? BayTaynt3d gives a very clear and detailed description of how he uses the pre-amp section of the R-4 and states that he likes it. how does that in anyway testify to the fact that it is useless? FWIW you aren't the first person I've heard with a similar opinion, but I think it's a little odd to claim that a device is "useless" for a specific purpose when there are literally dozens (maybe hundreds) of people using it on a regular basis to do that exact task. I'm using a modified unit myself after having run a stock unit for a number of months so obviously I think there is room for improvement in the stock units, but they are far from useless.

Also - this post...I mean - even a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input???...without pads???

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92387.msg1234760.html#msg1234760

Not picking on the poster here - you do what you have to do...but I have never come a across a RCA out that was too hot for anything...particularly an XLR input...

This is the kind of stuff that scares me away from these units...

where exactly does anyone in that link you posted claim that a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input? I did a quick scan of the exact post you linked to and a few before and after it and see no reference that even sort of hints at that.

[Roving Sign]

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83100.msg1113741.html#msg1113741

This user seems to testify to my point (although he has the opposite opinion) - he makes it work - but has to use on-mic pads...

For clarity: I speaking from the perspective of recording rock bands, gererally in bars and clubs...

he testifies to your point by completely disagreeing with you? BayTaynt3d gives a very clear and detailed description of how he uses the pre-amp section of the R-4 and states that he likes it. how does that in anyway testify to the fact that it is useless? FWIW you aren't the first person I've heard with a similar opinion, but I think it's a little odd to claim that a device is "useless" for a specific purpose when there are literally dozens (maybe hundreds) of people using it on a regular basis to do that exact task. I'm using a modified unit myself after having run a stock unit for a number of months so obviously I think there is room for improvement in the stock units, but they are far from useless.

Also - this post...I mean - even a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input???...without pads???

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92387.msg1234760.html#msg1234760

Not picking on the poster here - you do what you have to do...but I have never come a across a RCA out that was too hot for anything...particularly an XLR input...

This is the kind of stuff that scares me away from these units...

where exactly does anyone in that link you posted claim that a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input? I did a quick scan of the exact post you linked to and a few before and after it and see no reference that even sort of hints at that.

He's referring to installing -20db pads in the XLR end...assuming thats done for a reason (there might be another thread on this)

BayTaynt3d - I dont think we disagree at all - he just likes it and says he makes it work...but note he mentions he has to use the on-mic pads...not to protect the mic - but to protect the preamp - not good, and not the best way to attenuate...

Perhaps "useless" was a bit strong - but my point/concerns stand...

EDIT: I think rowjimmy has a modded unit (that disables line-in) so has to resort to attenuators to push the line level through the mic preamp...still - not a great solution...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,96074.0.html

[Todd R]

Also - this post...I mean - even a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input???...without pads???

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92387.msg1234760.html#msg1234760

Not picking on the poster here - you do what you have to do...but I have never come a across a RCA out that was too hot for anything...particularly an XLR input...

This is the kind of stuff that scares me away from these units...

It would help me if you could summarize what the quoted posters are saying about the R4, or at least your interpretation of it.  I'm really not seeing your point, at least without reading through the whole thread you've linked to.  Nothing I'm reading points directly to any limitations of the R4, but if there are limitations, I'd like to know what they are.

Baytaynt3d says in the post you're pointing towards:

My whole strategy is to be able to run somewhere b/w 10am-1pm on the gain. That puts me in the sweet spot for less noise, and gives me some room to run if things get hotter than planned.

This doesn't seem at all to me he is saying the R4 can't take a hot signal without engaging the mic pads, only that he prefers to engage them in order to run the R4 with the gain between 10am-1pm -- not because of the limitations of the R4 but simply for his own preference on how to run his gear.

And without reading I have no idea what it means that someone owning an R4 wants attenuator cables.  I've got a pair I sometimes use with my V3, but that has nothing to do with whether the V3 is a good piece of gear or not.

At any rate, the manual for the R44 says it can take an input level of +24dbu, which is a very hot signal -- well above the nominal consumer standard of -10dBV or the nominal pro output level of +4dbu.  BTW, I think the max input level of the SD 722 is +24dbu as well, but I'd have to double-check that.

[Roving Sign]

Also - this post...I mean - even a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input???...without pads???

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92387.msg1234760.html#msg1234760

Not picking on the poster here - you do what you have to do...but I have never come a across a RCA out that was too hot for anything...particularly an XLR input...

This is the kind of stuff that scares me away from these units...

It would help me if you could summarize what the quoted posters are saying about the R4, or at least your interpretation of it.  I'm really not seeing your point, at least without reading through the whole thread you've linked to.  Nothing I'm reading points directly to any limitations of the R4, but if there are limitations, I'd like to know what they are.

Baytaynt3d says in the post you're pointing towards:

My whole strategy is to be able to run somewhere b/w 10am-1pm on the gain. That puts me in the sweet spot for less noise, and gives me some room to run if things get hotter than planned.

This doesn't seem at all to me he is saying the R4 can't take a hot signal without engaging the mic pads, only that he prefers to engage them in order to run the R4 with the gain between 10am-1pm -- not because of the limitations of the R4 but simply for his own preference on how to run his gear.

To be honest, he jumps back and forth talking about mic and line so much Im a bit confused at this point...

He says:

I've come to actually like the current gain setup in the stock R4 over time, but that probably has something to do with recording more jazz than rock. I find that running my mics with the -10db pad into mic-in on the R4 works in most situations for me, including fairly loud PA shows as long as I'm back by the SBD. That said, there will DEFINITELY be times when -10db won't be enough, so -15 might be a little better. However, I sure wouldn't want my line-in brought down by -15db personally, cause in all likelihood you're just going to have to make it up with the R4 preamps, which is something I personally try to avoid. I do, at times, run my mics (or the SBD) through some switchable pads that have -15, -20, -25, and then run mic-in on them,

Unless he is overloading the mics themselves - running the on-mic pads will only ADD noise...too much of a compromise. And his later comments seem to indicate he is attenuating based on volume...not so much "sweet spot for noise" - thats my take...

[Roving Sign]

Also - this post...I mean - even a modded unit cant take a consumer level signal through a pro level input???...without pads???

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92387.msg1234760.html#msg1234760

Not picking on the poster here - you do what you have to do...but I have never come a across a RCA out that was too hot for anything...particularly an XLR input...

This is the kind of stuff that scares me away from these units...

And without reading I have no idea what it means that someone owning an R4 wants attenuator cables.  I've got a pair I sometimes use with my V3, but that has nothing to do with whether the V3 is a good piece of gear or not.

At any rate, the manual for the R44 says it can take an input level of +24dbu, which is a very hot signal -- well above the nominal consumer standard of -10dBV or the nominal pro output level of +4dbu.  BTW, I think the max input level of the SD 722 is +24dbu as well, but I'd have to double-check that.

Well - without reading is key - I didnt read the post enough either!...the Oade mod disables the line input - So i think the fellow was trying to attenuate back down to mic level, so he could run a SBD signal into it...

But - without reading - yikes a pro-level input cant take a consumer level output...thats scary. (although - it doesnt seem to be the case...) In any case - a "mod" issue - not stock...my bad.

As I said earlier - "useless" is probably a bit too strong...

[BayTaynt3d]

LOL, holy cow, wow... Maybe I wasn't clear enough with that old post, LMAO!!!

First of all, the R4 can easily handle whatever levels you throw at it, just flip the line-in switch and you're golden. So, all the talk about overloading completely missed the point. And, if you read my point about in-line pads: "I do, at times, run my mics (or the SBD) through some switchable pads that have -15, -20, -25, and then run mic-in on them, but I try to avoid putting those in the signal path if I don't have to." I say I try not to, but as anyone who's made a ton of matrix recordings knows, you don't always have control over what you're given, and sometimes the FOH is an arse and won't lower your signal. A pair a in-line pads will solve that issue right quick, and that's an issue pretty much any recorder you mention could run into in the field, which is why pads are recommended in the official TS Matrix Guide, LOL. That is really a worst case scenario, which pretty much NEVER happens.

As for the mic's pad "adding noise", someone also missed my point on that, which was, I'm specifically choosing b/w the noise (and coloring) of the pads vs. the noise in the R4's preamps. See, you're thinking about it wrong I think. I run the -10db pad on the mic because in MANY MANY cases that's all the headroom I need to run mic-in on the box. What does mic-in get me? Less of a need to increase gain on the R4 pres. See, in many situations, if I didn't run with the mic's -10db pad, then I'd have to run LINE-IN instead, meaning I'd also probably have to increase the gain on the pres significantly more. So, you see, it's my way of deciding between noise from the pre or the so called noise from the pad (and I doubt the pad on the 480 introduces that much noise). And for anyone pointing at this a downfall of the R4, I call BS. Most of you tapers out there record to line-in on your units anyway, because mic-in would overload! So, this is actually an ADVANTAGE as far as I'm concerned because I can actually run mic-in at times.

Finally, I've got to admit, I find it personally HILARIOUS that my post basically talking about how I like the R4, even a stock R4, got used as a proof point for how "bad" it is, LOL! Well, I guess that's one way to make the point.

FWIW, I think using my technique could also be applied to other "all in one" units to equally beneficial use. The point is to use as little pre gain as possible, and to take advantage of as much of the signal coming off the mics as possible. Now, one could argue about adding in the pad, but you have to compare that to the alternative in those situations, which is you might have to run line-in and add significant gain. Maybe if you had a V2/V3 it wouldn't matter, but for the other all-in-one boxes out there, I'm not so sure riding you're gain way high won't add MORE noise than the pad running into mic-in.

I had some other thoughts from the comments above, but now I forgot them, heh...

[BayTaynt3d]

Just thinking about this again for a sec and realized maybe I still wasn't all that clear.

How about an example?

Say you're recording a show that is 10db too hot to record mic-in on your recorder, and that your recorder has a 20db pad (aka "Line In"). That's a pretty typical scenario that could play out for many more recorders than just the R4.

So, you might be faced with this choice:

(1) Flip on your recorders pad (aka run line-in). For the sake of argument, let's say your recorder has a 20db pad (R4, PMD660, etc.). So, you were 10db too hot, you engage line-in, and now you have 10db too much headroom, so you make up the difference using your pre's gain stage to add +10db.

or...

(2) On the other hand, if you're mics have a 10db pad on them, you could engage it, keep the recorder mic-in (no pad) and require no additional gain.

So, given a choice, and depending on your recorder and your mics, I'd most typically go with #2. Personally, for me, I'd way rather use my AKG480's 10db pad, than use the R4's 20db pad and add 10db of gain. And I bet that would be the better scenario for a lot of other mic/recorder combos out there. So, remember, I'm not adding the pad just to add noise, lol, I'm just choosing a smaller pad and the pad on my mics as opposed to the larger and unknown pad on the recorder -- AND, in the process of using the smaller of the two pads, I also get the added benefit of needing LESS gain too. Make sense? Seems to me that'd be a good approach for a lot of folks out there, even ones with better preamps, but what do I know?

[Roving Sign]

Just thinking about this again for a sec and realized maybe I still wasn't all that clear.

How about an example?

Say you're recording a show that is 10db too hot to record mic-in on your recorder, and that your recorder has a 20db pad (aka "Line In"). That's a pretty typical scenario that could play out for many more recorders than just the R4.

So, you might be faced with this choice:

(1) Flip on your recorders pad (aka run line-in). For the sake of argument, let's say your recorder has a 20db pad (R4, PMD660, etc.). So, you were 10db too hot, you engage line-in, and now you have 10db too much headroom, so you make up the difference using your pre's gain stage to add +10db.

or...

(2) On the other hand, if you're mics have a 10db pad on them, you could engage it, keep the recorder mic-in (no pad) and require no additional gain.

So, given a choice, and depending on your recorder and your mics, I'd most typically go with #2. Personally, for me, I'd way rather use my AKG480's 10db pad, than use the R4's 20db pad and add 10db of gain. And I bet that would be the better scenario for a lot of other mic/recorder combos out there. So, remember, I'm not adding the pad just to add noise, lol, I'm just choosing a smaller pad and the pad on my mics as opposed to the larger and unknown pad on the recorder. Make sense? Seems to me that'd be a good approach for a lot of folks out there, even ones with better preamps, but what do I know?

I must admit, for rock bands - I almost always run the -20db pad on all of my preamps (that have 'em)...the only time I use the on-mic pads is with my 99 dollar Yamaha mixer...thats the only way I can run something like a 480 on that thing...

I've long wondered about line in vs mic in...is line in really just the same thing but 20db lower?...on all gear? Or just the R-4. Is there also some impedence difference? Pretty sure if I went line in on my pres, I would have to add gobs of gain

Isn't the idea of a pro mic output level going into consumer line input something Len Moskowitz or Oade came up with as a workaround solution to the weak mic pres in the old portable DATs?  - and not so much something that should be a standard practice...I guess I've gotten used to a work scheme that translates well to various pieces of gear - and I dont see the translation here. But maybe Im just missing a pad on the mic in...

[leehookem]

The few times I borrowed Ricks R4, I used the 10 db pads on my AKG 480s as well.  For the exact reasons as BayTaynt3d stated above.  No need to run line in on the R4 when I could just use the pads on the mics.

[Roving Sign]

The few times I borrowed Ricks R4, I used the 10 db pads on my AKG 480s as well.  For the exact reasons as BayTaynt3d stated above.  No need to run line in on the R4 when I could just use the pads on the mics.

That part I get...I just dont get the feeling that running mics on line in is going to be the same as turning on my -20db switch on my preamp...

Also - I come to find that the on-mic pads, while handy for reducing gain in a pinch - should be avoided in favor of a pad after the mic...using the mic on-mic pads changes the mics S/N ratio - while the post-mic pads...do not.

Not trying to pick a fight - and I recant on calling it "useless" in a previous post (I was recalling comments made by others...)