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Offline boojum

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Jecklin Array question
« on: March 20, 2007, 02:08:21 AM »
I built a Jecklin disc/OSS array and love it.  Easy to build, easy to use.  Perfect for the amateur.  The question is that Jecklin says the mics are to be omni's, at the center of the disc, pointing toward the sound and outward in 30 degree angle on each mic from the disc.  Now if they are omnis, what the hell difference does it make?  They can even be point backwards and down if the are omnis, right?  Explain me how omnis are directional.  This is all so confusing.

Thanks!
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Offline Jimna

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2007, 06:38:45 AM »
omnis are directional in the higher frequency ranges.
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Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2007, 08:16:59 AM »
I'm also considering making a Jecklin disc.

- What is the optimal distance of the mics from the disc?  How is this justified?

- What material should the disk be made of?  Can I make it of (reflective) plexiglass?  Plexiglass covered in something fuzzy?  Or, do the base material have to be squishy/damping for lower frequencies too.

- Finally, I've seen some designs that use two mics mounted flush on a surface.  The surface is a wedge or corner, say 90 degrees, and the material is hard, like wood or something.  Imagine taking a (90 degree) corner in a building and putting a PCC (phase coherent cardioid) on each surface, both pointing towards the sound source.

Too many questions...

Thanks for any info,
  Richard
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 08:19:34 AM by poorlyconditioned »
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
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Offline ShawnF

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 11:25:49 AM »
optimal is about the same spacing as din/ortf, (6.5" -> 7" spacing), with about a 20º->30º toe-out, each side.
justified?: per the Jecklin/OSS technique white papers.

Except that he seems to have modified his view to have a much wider spacing between the mics (along with using a larger disc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jecklin_Disk

Now, instead of 16.5 cm separation he suggests 36 cm, which is quite a difference.  The paper referenced in the wiki entry is here (but in German):
http://www.mdw.ac.at/I101/iea/tm/scripts/jecklin/tt03mikrofon.pdf

Next-to-last page of the document is where the OSS technique is described with the revised specs.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 11:46:05 AM by ShawnF »

Offline ShawnF

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2007, 11:48:00 AM »
Yeah, I think the variability of the spacing is something that sometimes gets lost in reading the specs too strictly.  On the whole I think I've had better results with wider spacing, though I haven't tried 36 cm, yet.

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2007, 12:05:43 PM »
I took the OSS specs, and changed the spacing ratio as compared to the size of my jdisc...
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2007, 12:26:36 PM »
I'm currently slapping a disk together to use this weekend at an outdoor americana/bluegrass fest.  I've been meaning to do it for a long while and have been following M0ke's threads and searching the forum.  This will be a time for experimentation for me and I want to try several techniques, all using my DPA 4060's from the same position FOB: Jeckin disk with various cap spacings, A-B (spaced, no-baffle) with various spacings, and finally, using a 7-8" dense nerf foam ball as a baffle with the caps either flush mounted to the surface pointing out or taped to either side facing forwards. 

Concerning the Jecklin disk:
As I understand it, the original OSS spec was for ORTF'ish spacing between the caps to replicate the HRTF time/phase differences ear to ear.  M0ke champions adjustability of the spacing and often uses a narrower spacing with the caps closer to the baffle for greater separation, especially with smaller baffles and close mic placement.  You can adjust the spacing to control the 'shadow' of the baffle by visually lining up the capsule and the front edge of the disk to see what area of the recording angle will be picked up equally by both mics and what will be 'shadowed'.

I wonder about a couple variables- The capsule spacing as it relates to 1) the time difference between caps giving that spaced omni envelopment feel as the spacing is increased.  2) The distance of the caps from the baffle face which will decrease the isolation between channels as the spacing increases and may make a sonic difference by getting some air around the mics (reflections off the baffle causing comb-filtering may be another variable here).  This isn't necessarily directly linked with 1) above since the disk baffle could be thin or quite thick, changing the spacing between caps even though the distance off the surface cold be the same.  I've also wondered about splitting the disk to allow adjustable mic spacing while keeping the caps close to the face.  I'm not doing that this time, but that would also allow for different disk angles changing the 'shadowing'.

I won't be directly in front of the stage but a bit farther back FOB. In order to try a larger cap spacing with a single disk (that will end up 2"-4" thick maybe?) and maintain a decent shadow effect with a narrow'ish  angle to the stage, I'm thinking of trying an oval shaped baffle with the mics farther back on the disk so there is enough disk in front of the mics to shadow them even if the caps are spaced a bit farther out.  I bought two cheap embroidery hoops from the fabric store, one 10" round and one 8x13" or so, oval shaped.

Disk face materials:
The disk itself should be as sound absorbent as possible across all frequencies, but the size of the disk limits the low frequency cut off to around 1khz or so I'd guess so high frequency absorption is most needed.  I tested materials for disk face sound absorbency last night by standing beside a speaker and holding materials up in front of the tweeter & mid domes at an angle to hear the timber of the reflected sound.  I was looking for both the least amount of broadband reflected sound and the greatest absorbency at high frequencies.  I tried: wool blanket, cheap felt U-Haul movers blanket, 'memory foam' polyurethane pillow, big 11x17" piece of mouse pad neoprene, pool float foam and polyester fleece.  The neoprene was worst, the foams not much better, the wool and polyester were tied and the felt movers blanket best at reducing high freq. reflections. That's what I'll pad the disk with under an outside covering of some faux fur dead rat material.  I doubt the faux fur will make any difference to the reflected sound (it's supposed to be acoustically transparent after all) but it will make the thing look better and perhaps help with wind noise.

Other methods- ball or wedge type surfaces:
You don't want a reflective surface for a Jecklin disk since the caps are off the surface and comb filtering could result from reflections, but if the caps are flush to a surface you eliminate the reflections so you don't need to worry about reflectivity as much.  That will be the case with my foam ball.  However you also get into the boundary effect region where sensitivity (and SPL) is increased at the surface.  To harness that you'd want a hard reflective surface just like you'd place a PZM mic on.  The surface size controls how low in frequency the boost effect goes.  You need a big 4square foot surface to go really low, a smaller flat surface will act as a +6db shelf filter above the frequency that corresponds to the size of the surface.  SparkE!'s fishpole mics are similar to what you suggest, Richard, and have caps flush mounted in a wedge shaped 90 degree angled mousepad baffles.  That can block some rear arriving sound too, giving the mics some subcardioid forward directivity as the frequency rises.  So wedges and balls incorporate both the baffle shadowing effect and some of the boundary effect.

Sorry for the long winded post, but this helps get my thoughts together a bit before the hot glue starts flowing tonight!

Open to any comments on my thoughts above, especially the relationship between overall cap spacing and cap to disk face distance by those with experience.

Lee
(whoa, previewed and 5 others have posted. Forgive me if I'm restating what has been covered..)
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Offline boojum

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2007, 12:32:53 PM »
I'm also considering making a Jecklin disc.

- What is the optimal distance of the mics from the disc?  How is this justified?

- What material should the disk be made of?  Can I make it of (reflective) plexiglass?  Plexiglass covered in something fuzzy?  Or, do the base material have to be squishy/damping for lower frequencies too.

- Finally, I've seen some designs that use two mics mounted flush on a surface.  The surface is a wedge or corner, say 90 degrees, and the material is hard, like wood or something.  Imagine taking a (90 degree) corner in a building and putting a PCC (phase coherent cardioid) on each surface, both pointing towards the sound source.

Too many questions...

Thanks for any info,
  Richard


OK, I used an old Oral Roberts LP, some foam to cover it, a threaded 12" long 1/4 rod through the center hole with some heavy duty wire on the ends to attach the Velcro hooks onto which, in turn, attach the mics,  The rig is covered with faux lambs wool (Sherpa wool) and looks uglier than homemade soap, but it works.  Small photo attached.  The Jecklin likes to be pretty close, half the distance of a cardioid is what I have read, and sounds good.  I just recorded a blulegrass group last night and if it turned out well I will upload a track.  Otherwise I will deny everything.  ;o)

Photo of my ugly rig follows.  If the tracks I got last night are good, "photo of my ugly but very functional rig" follow.  ;o)

Well, I have not figured out how to attach the photo.  When I do I will do that.

Cheers   B)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 03:38:30 PM by boojum »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 12:40:10 PM »
Lambs wool probably does a great job with high frequency absorbtion, which you likely need to kill the screeching from the Oral Roberts LP.  ;)
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Offline poorlyconditioned

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 03:34:29 PM »
Has anyone tried *mixing* HTRF/Jecklin with XY (cardioid) mics?

I tried this and it sounded pretty good.  What happened was I was running ORTF (CK91) on one rig and HRTF (mics over ears into another rig).  I added the two togther in a mix.

I did this for two reasons.  First, I wanted the recording to sound more "natural" or "transparent".  I found the CK91 alone lose something and adding (some) input from a more transparent mic seemed to put it back.  Second, I found that adding HRTF makes the recording sound great on headphones.  The idea is to provide *multiple* and *redundant* perceptual cues to the stereo image.  It seems (to me) that the more cues you add, the stronger the stereo impression becomes.  This is motivate by psychophysical experiments in other domains, like vision, that I work in.

I have heard of people doing this, eg., putting a Sennheiser head in the audience and mixing it in.  Anyone here do this?

  Richard
Mics: Sennheiser MKE2002 (dummy head), Studio Projects C4, AT825 (unmodded), AT822 franken mic (x2), AT853(hc,c,sc,o), Senn. MKE2, Senn MKE40, Shure MX183/5, CA Cards, homebrew Panasonic and Transsound capsules.
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Offline boojum

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 03:44:27 PM »
I have seen a manufacturer who sells an ovoid soft material thingy with mics attached where ears would normally be in a head.  It is a mechanical head.  Anyway, he charges thousands for this thing and says it can be used to "sweeten" the sound in recording sessions using other mics on the individual instruments.  I. E., it adds wet to the dry.   B)
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Offline CQBert

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Re: Jecklin Array question
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 10:06:18 PM »
I think this conversation has drifted into two different areas... 

A Jeklin discussion and then the 'Dummy Head' (sorry I do not know the technical term) branch.

Each of those have specific spacing and barrier sizes...  I know little about the second part of the thread but I have recently built my first two Jekin Disks.

The first is for my use with my Neumann U89's.  Photo in other section - see Oteil and the Peacemakers...The Jeklin theory is not necessarily designed for use with dual diaphram (OMNI) mics as they apparently negate some of the effects of the Disk.  I will agree with that as my testing at home agreed with Jeklin.  I have run the J-Disk with the U89's in Sub-Card and really liked the results.  The division between Left and Right was fantastic while still leaving the soundstage accurate based on instrument placement and relative volumes. 

The second was for Sleepypedro for use with his MBHO Omni's on a Kwon bar that is placed in the suspension mount integral to the disk.  This recently traveled with him to Langarado and can be seen in photos in another thread.  He was running FOB with the MBHO's and aparently a set of 4061's on a twig sharing some space in the mount.  I have not heard the recordings yet but he said he was pleased with the experiment and will continue to roll with it when outside.  These mics are spaced and angled per the Jeklin spec.

Both of the disks I built were pretty basic with nothing that is not easily found on the net...  I had enough for 5, killed one set on experiments, built two and have two possible left to build. 

I have seen pics of square J-Disks with foam, windscreen material, multiple layers of things and everyone here who has tried these creations seems to like them in one way or another.  I am no different.  With that as the basics - try building what seems like it will work for you - keep if close in size, shape(if possible) and spacing... try to stay with the theory to get a baseline for yourself and then branch out...M0ke knows - he seems to have tried a hundred configurations...

Keep us all posted on your results -

Good luck!!

CQBert
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