Topic: Cables for tapping insert points

[yousef]

I'm not really comfortable with the "insert jack to first click method" and was wondering if it was possible to safely tap a desk's insert points with a cable that had a TRS at one end with the tip and ring connected to each other and a standard 'mono' jack/RCA at the other. The aim of this would be to allow the TRS to be fully inserted at the desk without breaking the signal path.

I'm sure I've read that this is possible somewhere on TS.com (or in an article linked to from here) but can't seem to find it anymore.

[SmokinJoe]

I've never done that either, but I've been told by an old timer that's what I should do.  Tie the tip and ring together.

[Patrick]

Hosa makes a cable that does just that...ties tip and ring together and creates an unbalanced direct output without having to try to do the one click thing. If you're good with a soldering iron you can fabricate some of these yourself with ease.

http://www.hosatech.com/product/0/DOC-106/_/Insert_Direct-out_Adaptor%2C_Serviceable_14_in_TRS_to_14_in_TSF%2C_6_in

[runonce]

Hosa makes a cable that does just that...ties tip and ring together and creates an unbalanced direct output without having to try to do the one click thing. If you're good with a soldering iron you can fabricate some of these yourself with ease.

http://www.hosatech.com/product/0/DOC-106/_/Insert_Direct-out_Adaptor%2C_Serviceable_14_in_TRS_to_14_in_TSF%2C_6_in

Insert sends are already unbalanced. (3 conductors, 2 singals)

I think you just need a TRS with with R and S wired. Leave the T unwired.

That should allow you to plug the jack in the whole way without screwing with the return (or your signal)

[Patrick]

Hosa makes a cable that does just that...ties tip and ring together and creates an unbalanced direct output without having to try to do the one click thing. If you're good with a soldering iron you can fabricate some of these yourself with ease.

http://www.hosatech.com/product/0/DOC-106/_/Insert_Direct-out_Adaptor%2C_Serviceable_14_in_TRS_to_14_in_TSF%2C_6_in

Insert sends are already unbalanced. (3 conductors, 2 singals)

I think you just need a TRS with with R and S wired. Leave the T unwired.

That should allow you to plug the jack in the whole way without screwing with the return (or your signal)

Right, but direct outs are usually balanced so it was worth noting that using the hosa adapters would create an unbalanced output for your recording needs. Not a big deal either way as long as your cable runs are short.

And your solution wouldn't work because the TRS cable will break the normalling inside the console and won't pass signal unless the same signal is applied to the return (ring).  Not using the tip of the connector means you won't get signal out of the console (on most boards).

[yousef]

Thanks everyone.

Looks like I'll be honing my soldering skills soon.

[runonce]

Hosa makes a cable that does just that...ties tip and ring together and creates an unbalanced direct output without having to try to do the one click thing. If you're good with a soldering iron you can fabricate some of these yourself with ease.

http://www.hosatech.com/product/0/DOC-106/_/Insert_Direct-out_Adaptor%2C_Serviceable_14_in_TRS_to_14_in_TSF%2C_6_in

Insert sends are already unbalanced. (3 conductors, 2 singals)

I think you just need a TRS with with R and S wired. Leave the T unwired.

That should allow you to plug the jack in the whole way without screwing with the return (or your signal)

Right, but direct outs are usually balanced so it was worth noting that using the hosa adapters would create an unbalanced output for your recording needs. Not a big deal either way as long as your cable runs are short.

And your solution wouldn't work because the TRS cable will break the normalling inside the console and won't pass signal unless the same signal is applied to the return (ring).  Not using the tip of the connector means you won't get signal out of the console (on most boards).

Maybe I dont have the TRS assingments right - not sure if its tip or ring that carries the send...

I dont see how yousefs/my solution would be any different than using a standard insert cable and only using the send side...leave the return dangling.

What is normalling?

[yousef]

I dont see how yousefs/my solution would be any different than using a standard insert cable and only using the send side...leave the return dangling.

I was assuming that doing this would break the signal path completely and therefore leave the channel absent from the room mix.

[runonce]

I dont see how yousefs/my solution would be any different than using a standard insert cable and only using the send side...leave the return dangling.

I was assuming that doing this would break the signal path completely and therefore leave the channel absent from the room mix.

I dont think so...a lot of soundguys dont even use the return channel...the effects are brought back to the mix via another channel/fader...

[yousef]

Interesting...

[Teen Age Riot]

I dont see how yousefs/my solution would be any different than using a standard insert cable and only using the send side...leave the return dangling.

I was assuming that doing this would break the signal path completely and therefore leave the channel absent from the room mix.

I dont think so...a lot of soundguys dont even use the return channel...the effects are brought back to the mix via another channel/fader...

Not sure what you mean by this. Confusing inserts and fx sends/returns?
Using an insert, you're grabbing 100% of the signal after the first gain stage, redirecting it to an outboard unit (most likely a compressor or a gate) and then back into the rest of the channel strip from there.

Tapping the insert point with an incorrectly wired cable will indeed break the signal path after the gain knob and that channel will be absent from whatever it is assigned to. Bad insert cables or jacks can also cause partial shorts, resulting in volume drops.

I'm not saying that this method shouldn't be used. But one should be extremely careful and make sure that whatever you're using is wired correctly and working flawlessly. Otherwise there's potential for disaster.

[Patrick]

Maybe I dont have the TRS assingments right - not sure if its tip or ring that carries the send...

I dont see how yousefs/my solution would be any different than using a standard insert cable and only using the send side...leave the return dangling.

What is normalling?

On most consoles it's tip-send, ring-return.  Some soundcraft boards are the other way around.  You'll run into it occasionally.

Normalling is just the path that a signal takes from one part of the channel strip to the next.  Insert jacks are normalling jacks, meaning they are not a part of the signal chain when a cable isn't plugged into them.  Once a cable is plugged in the "normal" is broken and now the insert point is part of the signal flow.  This is the same concept as plugging in a pair of headphones to a laptop, which in turn kills the speakers.

You're right... Dynamic effects (comps, gates) are usually inserted on individual channels.  However other effects (verbs, delays) are fed from an aux send and returned to an aux return or an open channel, so the insert jack is not used (typically).

If you "take" a signal from an insert jack but don't "return" the same signal back, the console won't pass that particular channel to the mix bus.  This is bad!    Plugging a cable "one click in" is a way to take a signal without having to return it back to the house console, but it's risky since a slight bump to the cable could result in your main vocals cutting out.  This will absolutely get you on the engineer's shit list 

[goodcooker]

If you "take" a signal from an insert jack but don't "return" the same signal back, the console won't pass that particular channel to the mix bus.  This is bad!    Plugging a cable "one click in" is a way to take a signal without having to return it back to the house console, but it's risky since a slight bump to the cable could result in your main vocals cutting out.  This will absolutely get you on the engineer's shit list 

This is correct for most consoles and the reason you should never jack around with the console without the permission of the FOH.