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Author Topic: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle  (Read 14702 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2014, 09:44:26 PM »
Just gave a listen to the Youtube link. 
Life is grand when you get women singing backup in the right spots.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2014, 09:55:12 PM »
Just gave a listen to the Youtube link. 
Life is grand when you get women singing backup in the right spots.

I'd go for the thinner one but she could probably outrun me. Well, no probably to it. I'm gimpier than ever. I need me a Rascal Scooter!
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2014, 09:58:02 PM »
Now I'm confused, which is a normal situation for me. I'll have to think it through when I'm not as tired as I am right now.

I'm really surprised the hired us for Magfest again. Never look a gift horse in the mouth I guess. I need to remember to pack my Patchbay II. I've got it stashed in the back of a rack under my board at the club. Easy to forget! But I'm getting a 16U rolling rack from JB Ritter (used to run sound at the camp ground stage) so I can put all my gear in one rack there. Right now my HD24 is behind me in separate rack which is a pain in the ass. Anyway, when I move things over the Patchbay will surface again.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 10:00:12 PM by cybergaloot »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2014, 10:44:46 PM »
So is Corina going to be there?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Tom McCreadie

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2014, 07:18:37 AM »

'Ambiophonics' is a playback arrangement using narrowly spaced speakers, electronic interchannel cross-cancellation techniques, and optional convolution reverberance.  It is ideally recorded using a front/back baffled and pinna-less dummy head.  But it often works for playing back standard stereo recordings too.  'Ambiophonics' doesn't really apply to coincident crossed figure-8 'Blumlien' stereo in anyway that I'm aware of.

No, I believe that's ambiosonics. For ambiophonics, look up some of the Sennheiser technical mic papers.

Offline DSatz

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2014, 08:44:53 AM »
Back in the 1970s I lent my Schoeps stereo mike to another engineer who recorded an album with crossed figure-8s set up in the middle of a quartet, and he liked it (or more precisely, thought that he was cool to have thought of the idea). And one very nice thing about figure-8s for direct sound recording in general is the way that any low-frequency diffuse noise in the room gets canceled out. Room rumble that can be a real problem with cardioids or omnis often goes away completely when you use figure-8s--not because of their low-frequency rolloff, but because of their equal-but-opposite sensitivity on the front vs. back of the diaphragm(s) (a simultaneous rise in pressure on both sides causes no net output). Also, there's no pickup from the ceiling or floor directions, which can be helpful when you have a low-ceilinged space.

About ten years ago I recorded a series of master classes with opera singers who were rehearsing in a circle. I used a pair of back-to-back cardioids, a setup which also rejuggles the left-right arrangement of the performers as Blumlein does, but it seemed to do so in a more straightforward way, perhaps. I mean, by the time you're using a coincident center mike setup, you're giving up on realistic left-to-right stereo imaging so it's just a matter of what gets you the tone and balance that you want.

--Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the IRT Cross arrangement. I translated all the product literature for Schoeps when they were introducing their surround products, and I'd just like to point out what they mean by "ambient" miking: It means that you're not trying to pick up direct sound because you already have some other miking setup for that. Instead you're literally trying to record ambience, background-level sound that augments the sense of spaciousness, that doesn't convey the main, direct information of the recording. Some of the surround arrays that Schoeps sells have microphones for picking up direct sound, but the IRT Cross isn't one of them.

--best regards
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 08:58:51 AM by DSatz »
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Offline cybergaloot

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2014, 09:10:42 AM »
So is Corina going to be there?

I don't know.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2014, 09:55:20 AM »

'Ambiophonics' is a playback arrangement using narrowly spaced speakers, electronic interchannel cross-cancellation techniques, and optional convolution reverberance.  It is ideally recorded using a front/back baffled and pinna-less dummy head.  But it often works for playing back standard stereo recordings too.  'Ambiophonics' doesn't really apply to coincident crossed figure-8 'Blumlien' stereo in anyway that I'm aware of.

No, I believe that's ambiosonics. For ambiophonics, look up some of the Sennheiser technical mic papers.

Hi Tom.  Most definitely Ambiophonics. 

Wikipedia entry- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiophonics
Ralf Glasgal's website- http://www.ambiophonics.org/

The simple version using a mechanical baffle (sheet of cardboard, plywood, a mattress, or whatever) running between narrowly spaced computer speakers and the listener's nose is a cheap and easy experiment I recommend to anyone interested in stereo playback and phantom imaging.  The center of the playback image is provided from the actual speaker sources and phantom images extend out to either side depending on the stereo content of the recording.  Sort of the inverse of the way the standard stereo speaker triangle works.  The electronic cross-cancellation techniques aim to replace the awkward mechanical baffle with electronics.

I did a general search for ambiosonics and more or less came up empty.  I also checked the Senn site for both terms but couldn't find any related technical papers.   If you have any links, please let me know.  I'd like to read them.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2014, 10:04:56 AM »
Too bad I need to be elsewhere this weekend because this would probably be a good place to test things: http://pickersparadisepark.com/
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2014, 11:26:40 AM »
--Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the IRT Cross arrangement. I translated all the product literature for Schoeps when they were introducing their surround products, and I'd just like to point out what they mean by "ambient" miking: It means that you're not trying to pick up direct sound because you already have some other miking setup for that. Instead you're literally trying to record ambience, background-level sound that augments the sense of spaciousness, that doesn't convey the main, direct information of the recording. Some of the surround arrays that Schoeps sells have microphones for picking up direct sound, but the IRT Cross isn't one of them.

That was me.  So does the same apply to double ORTF?

I realize that the typical use of IRT Cross arrangement and it's target market for Schoeps is for the provision of ambient background recording.   However, it can also be used as a primary mic array.  Consider that a pair of cardioids angled 90 degrees apart and spaced 25cm provides a Stereo Recording Angle of 90 degrees and is a typical near-spaced pair stereo arrangement.  The IRT Cross is simply four of those, one facing each direction, sharing microphones at the vertices. The second pair of microphones simply extends the forward facing stereo configuration to also face the sides and rear.  One can choose any two adjacent microphones in the array, ignore the others and the result is a typical near-spaced cardioid pair facing in that direction. 

Micheal Williams suggested an isotropic four cardioid arrangement with the same configuration as the IRT Cross in this AES paper back in 1991 with an emphasis on critically-linked imaging between each segment of the array, rather than simply the provision of a spacious ambient background 'bed' for use with other main microphones.  I assume that was the basis for the IRT Cross configuration.

Four Segment Array-
Hypercardioid microphones (Figure 6) - ll cm /90 °
Cardioid microphones (Figure 5) - 25 cm /90 °
Hypocardioid microphones (Figure 7) - 35 cm /90 °


Granted that doesn't cover issues with down-mixing down those resulting 4 channels to 2-channel stereo, but neither does Double ORTF, which Schoeps does market as a dedicated main microphone array as far as I'm aware.  The only difference between double ORTF and IRT-cross is the specifics of the near-spaced configurations in each quadrant and the overall array symmetries.

Please let me know if I'm missing something here, thanks!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Tom McCreadie

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2014, 01:12:34 PM »
I did a general search for ambiosonics and more or less came up empty.  I also checked the Senn site for both terms but couldn't find any related technical papers.   If you have any links, please let me know.  I'd like to read them.
Sorry for the typo, Gutbucket, I was rushing out the door. That should have been ambisonic or ambisonics,  with only one "o".
But the ambiophonic I refer to is not a recording technique as such. It is really just a posh word to describe a region of the 360° space that will deliver stereo signals with out of phase parts (even with coincident, intensity-stereo recordings). Since one loudspeaker's cone will  then be pumping forward while the partner speaker's cone is pumping baclwards, it's unsurprising that the playback imaging will deteriorate.

As you pointed out, the ambiophonic effect adds a spaciousness to the recording, and a precise imaging of audience etc. is mostly irrelevant, anyway, in a typical Blumlein scenario where the performers are placed in the front quadrant . The OP of this thread, however, did specifically ask about handling musicians  "sitting in a circle". So It seemed prudent to mention that those pickers unlucky to be seated in the two Bermuda Triangle sectors, L  and  R of the centred Blumlein pair, might whinge that they got a raw deal   :-)

That very useful Sennheiser article was originally a paper publication: 

"XY and MS Stereo Recording Techniques" (by Manfred Hibbing).

Mr. John Willett, who has an association with Neumann and Sennheiser, arranged for a pdf of the paper to be made, and kindly offered to supply it to any interested folks on the Gearslutz/ Remote Possibilities...  web forum.  He emailed me the pdf. Perhaps I can upload a copy: How?: PM?, or Dropbox? (<-not permanent link)  In any case, I prefer to first clear that from Mr. Willett. (Maybe he can  now supply an existing link.)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2014, 03:24:09 PM »
Thanks Tom, that clears things up.

Ambisonics is basically Michael Gerzon's a direct extension of Alan Blumlein's coincident stereo Mid/Side technique to three dimensions.  It's a beautifully elegant and mathematically rigorous approach which provides amazing control over manipulating coincident stereo. 

I have an ambisonic microphone and have learned a lot from recording with it and playing around with various ways of decoding the resulting recordings.  I didn't mention it since it's not something immediately available to the OP and the discussion gets complex, but I can see it being useful for this particular situation for a few reasons: 

First the single microphone is far less imposing than some of these other suggestions, it would hardly impose much on the social situation placed in the center of the circle.  Second, after the recording has been made, the resulting four channel output can be manipulated after the fact to point virtual microphones of any standard first-order pattern in any direction.  That doesn't mean that a pair of back-to-back cardioids might not be the best sounding choice and that a recording made with an ambisonic microphone would necessarily be better, but it does mean that you gain control over re-pointing those cardioids however you'd like after the fact.  You also can vary the pickup pattern of those two virtual microphones from cardioid towards figure-8 or the other way towards omni.  So you can play around with microphone arrangements after the fact to find what works best, then as the makeup of players changes around the circle from song to song and the focus changes from one area of the circle to another, you could re-point the microphones as appropriate.  That might all be more involved than necessary or appropriate, but it's entirely possible.

Ambisonics does have important limits though: First, it's limited to coincident techniques, so unless used in combination with other microphones, any time-based stereo techniques are out.  Second, first-order ambisonics, which is the limit of current ambisonic microphones, works well for 2-channel stereo output and up to at most 4 channel surround.  It cannot provide the channel separation required for robust surround sound for music recording with more than 4 playback channels.  You need space between microphones in a array to achieve that.  It does Blumlein very nicely with the ability to tilt and point the array though, and could also do four cardioids in an 'X', just without any spacing between them.

I've only played with ambisonic stereo decoding and some limited 4 and 5 channel surround output.  I'd love to hear a true ambisonic reproduction system, which places speakers at the vertices of a geometric solid and doesn't mess around with pointing virtual microphones this way and that for stereo decodes or typical multi-channel playback, but instead aims to reproduce the sound-field as sampled by the single-point microphone during the recording at the point in space located at the center of the playback array.  At a minimum, that requires 8 speakers located at the corners of a cube in 3-dimensions.  A circle of pickers with people milling about behind them laughing and having a good time while the trees rustle overhead in the breeze may well be the perfect demo for that!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2014, 03:44:16 PM »
The OP is too poor to own an ambisonic microphone when what he really needs is a decent set of of drum mics.
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Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2014, 03:50:36 PM »
Ambisonics does have important limits though: First, it's limited to coincident techniques, so unless used in combination with other microphones, any time-based stereo techniques are out. ...

In some ways, considering this a limitation is like saying that a cardioid mic is limited because it can't do stereo recordings. It really can, but it takes two of 'em!

As we've discussed in other threads, you can use two or more ambisonic mics to do time-based stereo techniques.

And by the way, we keep a good stock of Jecklin and Schneider Disks.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 03:53:02 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Re: recording acoustic musicians sitting in a circle
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2014, 04:54:22 PM »
Too bad I need to be elsewhere this weekend because this would probably be a good place to test things: http://pickersparadisepark.com/

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