Topic: Schoeps CCM41 or Schoeps MK41 for new set up

[bluntforcetrauma]

I was wondering what people thought of the two following set ups.  I would be open and stealth recording.  The VST62 gives me more options down the road, but

How is the kcy active Y cable to stealth?  When does the "Y" start how long?
is the kcy cable the same texture as mic cable (flexible)?


LINEAGE: Schoeps CCM41>Denecke PS2>Hosa MIT-176*>Hosa RCA  to minijack> Edirol r-09
LINEAGE: Schoeps MK41>kcy active Y cable>Ks 51 extension( if needed)> VST62> denecke PS2**> edirol r-09

AK SU/2U- i know I would need this with the MK41 set up to the denecke.


The reason i show the Denecke PS2 and HOSA is because I use them with my DPA 4022's

just looking for people's suggestions on

The MK41 looks like it will be simplier as it decreases the adapters after the denecke ( maybe I just talked myself into this one)

please advise

[Tim]

since you already have very nice cards and won't need the flexibility of adding mk4's at a later date I would definitely go with the ccm41's.

[gewwang]

I advise you to put the money into a preamp and just make sure you always have good seats where you can run your 4022s.

[pjdavep]

Why are you wanting the 41's?  Is it for a hypercard pattern or because you want a different sound?

Instead of going PS-2 to all that chain of Hosa stuff, I bet you'd get a pretty good sound upgrade with a Sonosax or Aerco and it would be a third of the price.

Later,
   pjdavep

[orechall]

I advise you to put the money into a preamp and just make sure you always have good seats where you can run your 4022s.

couldnt have said it better myself

[Craig T]

how about mk41> Nbox+> r09?  seems like a better solution to me.  Nick can make a 'split' or a 'Y' cable from the Nbox> collettes.

[bluntforcetrauma]

I advise you to put the money into a preamp and just make sure you always have good seats where you can run your 4022s.

Yeah I always try to get great seats, but i wanted another option.

Dont kill me, but i am not an engineer, but does a preamp make that much difference in sound.

I like my DPA 4022 and i probably stealth much more than i Open tape.  I just dont like all that DPA 4022 mic cable.  I know i could get the 4023 but its the same pattern.

i was just looking for a warmer sound and a hyper pattern and i thought the 41's would do that.

Preamp suggestions

[bluntforcetrauma]

Why are you wanting the 41's?  Is it for a hypercard pattern or because you want a different sound?

Instead of going PS-2 to all that chain of Hosa stuff, I bet you'd get a pretty good sound upgrade with a Sonosax or Aerco and it would be a third of the price.

Later,
   pjdavep

Would a preamp make THAT much difference in sound.  I am looking for less STUFF to take in.  Cant I make up for a lack of a preamp with post production since i use pro tools and Waves ultramaximizer plug ins

S.O.S

[bluntforcetrauma]

or so i sell my DPA 4022's and go for 4023's since they have lemmo and i can change out mic cables.

I thought go 41's also because it is a different sound plus i can get different mic cable lengths for open or stealthing.  This way going with schoeps i feel like i am not repeating myself by getting another set of cards?

[edtyre]

Why not an Aerco, Nbox+ and MK41's ?

Stealth with both DPA and Schoeps for 6-700 less
than an Aerco and CCM41's and have the ability to
run other caps.

Love my Nbox+ and MK41's 

[gewwang]

or so i sell my DPA 4022's and go for 4023's since they have lemmo and i can change out mic cables.

I thought go 41's also because it is a different sound plus i can get different mic cable lengths for open or stealthing.  This way going with schoeps i feel like i am not repeating myself by getting another set of cards?

You can go from 4022s to 4023s but the cables are still going to be fragile and expensive to fix when they eventually fail.

If you want a different sound, you should look into subcards before you look into hypercards. The DPA and Schoeps subcards both make amazing tapes and the only cases where I'd consider running hypers instead of cards is when I'm further away than the sweet spot and who wants to sit way back there:)

[bluntforcetrauma]

or so i sell my DPA 4022's and go for 4023's since they have lemmo and i can change out mic cables.

I thought go 41's also because it is a different sound plus i can get different mic cable lengths for open or stealthing.  This way going with schoeps i feel like i am not repeating myself by getting another set of cards?

You can go from 4022s to 4023s but the cables are still going to be fragile and expensive to fix when they eventually fail.

If you want a different sound, you should look into subcards before you look into hypercards. The DPA and Schoeps subcards both make amazing tapes and the only cases where I'd consider running hypers instead of cards is when I'm further away than the sweet spot and who wants to sit way back there:)

what is the model type on the subcards--schoeps and DPA

It is getting expensive to sit in the sweet spot,  and i am stack taping alot, it just seems to be getting more of a challenge these days to get the good seats.

also i thought the 4023 with the lemmo and a shorter mic cable would be much easier to handle to stealth?

Just taht 5m of mic calbe is bulky to roll for stealth

[H₂O]

Schoeps Subs are:   mk21's or CCM21's
DPA's sub miniatures are: 4026's, 4027's, or 4028's

[bluntforcetrauma]

Schoeps Subs are:   mk21's or CCM21's
DPA's sub miniatures are: 4026's, 4027's, or 4028's

would people recommend the pattern of the 21's or 4028's to the 41's?

is it a warmer sound

[bluntforcetrauma]

I could sell My

BMW 328is 1997 garage kept, only drive it for fun a couple times a month

63,000 miles, all black, onboard computer, leather plus sheep skin seat covers, moon/sun roof, 6 kenwood cd changer.  Also tint windows.

[H₂O]

In general sub cards are less directional and better for up close (as they will pick up more surrounding noise), and hypers are more directional and work better then subs or cards from far away.

Schoeps sub cards are a few hundred dollars less than hypers.  Schoeps hypers are less warm than subs as they roll off on the bass sooner and sharper (but the 41's do have more warm to them then some other types of hypers such as the nuemann AK50's).

See the tech sheets:
mk21
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-mk-ccm21.html

mk41
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-mk-ccm41.html

[pjdavep]

Would a preamp make THAT much difference in sound.  I am looking for less STUFF to take in.  Cant I make up for a lack of a preamp with post production since i use pro tools and Waves ultramaximizer plug ins

S.O.S

I think you'd have less stuff to take in with just the mics, a preamp with a mini/mini cable, and your R-09.  A transformer based preamp will warm up the sound a little bit.  Is anyone in your area that has a Sonosax that you could try?  George has made a ton of 4022/Sonosax tapes.  Do those sound like what you are aiming for?  Both the Sonosax and the Aerco hold their value well, and could be sold for the price you could buy it for if you really aren't that happy with your results.   

Bottom line is that a pre-amp will make quite a bit of difference, especially for mics like the 4022s that need a good amount of gain.  The Schoeps need a lot of gain as well, and a pre-amp is much better suited for that task as opposed to the R-09.

Later,
  pjdavep

[bluntforcetrauma]

Would a preamp make THAT much difference in sound.  I am looking for less STUFF to take in.  Cant I make up for a lack of a preamp with post production since i use pro tools and Waves ultramaximizer plug ins

S.O.S

I think you'd have less stuff to take in with just the mics, a preamp with a mini/mini cable, and your R-09.  A transformer based preamp will warm up the sound a little bit.  Is anyone in your area that has a Sonosax that you could try?  George has made a ton of 4022/Sonosax tapes.  Do those sound like what you are aiming for?  Both the Sonosax and the Aerco hold their value well, and could be sold for the price you could buy it for if you really aren't that happy with your results.   

Bottom line is that a pre-amp will make quite a bit of difference, especially for mics like the 4022s that need a good amount of gain.  The Schoeps need a lot of gain as well, and a pre-amp is much better suited for that task as opposed to the R-09.

Later,
  pjdavep

thanks pjdvep, I have listened to the sonosax from George recordings and i like it, i have not seen one in person, but the dimensions are a bit bigger than my denecke, but i know it will make a better sound

[bluntforcetrauma]

also i thought the 4023 with the lemmo and a shorter mic cable would be much easier to handle to stealth?

I think when I checked it is longer but I don't have the numbers.  Oh wait... packrat that I am:


4023 -
Microphone length:
30 mm (1.18 in); 71 mm (2.8 in) (incl. connector)

4022 -
Microphone length:
35 mm (1.38 in); 52 mm (2 in) (incl. cable relief)

So the 4023 is .8" longer from front of cap to end of cable relief.

k21 + kc5 = 1.797"

I was getting custom mic cables from schoeps (2) lengths one for stealth one for open if i went with the ccm41's
so you think the k21 + kc5 would be that much longer.

I am just trying to minimize my mic cable length, i end up vecro loop of like 2 feet and its a little weighted when stealthing anlong with the denecke>2 hosa mit176 iwth RCA ends>y cable 3.5mm end into r-09


some suggest the caps with nbox?

[JasonSobel]

bluntforcetrauma - you really must decide on your own which caps would be most appropriate to buy.  While I understand everyone suggesting the subcards (because of their wonderful sound), those people seem to be ignoring the realities of the taping situations you find yourself in.  Yes, in a perfect world, we'd all be dead center and in the sweet spot - but as much as we try to make that happen, as you say, we're often taping from less than ideal positions.  For those "less than ideal" conditions, I think you'd be happier with a set of hypers rather than a set of sub-cards.

as far as the pre-amp route, yes, it'll make a big difference.  getting something like an Aerco or a Sonosax would be nice and compact (I think the Aerco more-so than the Sonosax, although I'm not sure of the dimensions offhand).  and by getting a pre-amp, you'd be replacing the Denecke PS-2 and the Hosa transformers, which would clean up a bit of the cable mess as well.  on top of that, you'd be getting cleaner gain then you could get with the R09 (and definitely better than adding gain in post).

some suggest the caps with nbox?

the nbox is a custom made box (not by schoeps) that will allow you to run the Schoeps caps without a pair of Schoeps bodies (or without a VST62 stereo body).  the advantages is that it allows you to run different caps, and you don't need the bodies.  With this setup, you wouldn't have a need for the Aerco, as you'd just run "schoeps caps > nbox > r09", certainly a nice and compact rig.  However, the decision on which schoeps cap to buy should NOT depend on the whether or not you go the nbox route.  What I'm saying is, regardless if you go nbox, or regular caps > kcy > VST62, or the ccm route, the same type of capsule will be more appropriate.  You should choose that first, I'd think.

now, because you say that you are planning to keep the 4022's, I'd recommend going the ccm route (either the ccm41 or the ccm21, whatever you decide you need, hypers or subcards), and picking up an Aerco.  The aerco would be a great option for both the Schoeps ccm series, as well as the 4022's that you already own.

[grider]

in my experience, a preamp can make a huge difference, although I run transparent mics much more susceptible to the coloration of a preamp as opposed to your precolored Schoeps, if you run a transparent preamp you should be able to retain the Schoeps sound pretty easily; I would run the ccm41's if I had to choose

[gewwang]

Would a preamp make THAT much difference in sound.  I am looking for less STUFF to take in.  Cant I make up for a lack of a preamp with post production since i use pro tools and Waves ultramaximizer plug ins

S.O.S

I think you'd have less stuff to take in with just the mics, a preamp with a mini/mini cable, and your R-09.  A transformer based preamp will warm up the sound a little bit.  Is anyone in your area that has a Sonosax that you could try?  George has made a ton of 4022/Sonosax tapes.  Do those sound like what you are aiming for?  Both the Sonosax and the Aerco hold their value well, and could be sold for the price you could buy it for if you really aren't that happy with your results.   

Bottom line is that a pre-amp will make quite a bit of difference, especially for mics like the 4022s that need a good amount of gain.  The Schoeps need a lot of gain as well, and a pre-amp is much better suited for that task as opposed to the R-09.

Later,
  pjdavep

thanks pjdvep, I have listened to the sonosax from George recordings and i like it, i have not seen one in person, but the dimensions are a bit bigger than my denecke, but i know it will make a better sound

If you like the 4022>sonosax sound then get a sonosax and run it for a few shows to see how you like it. That's a much smaller investment than getting another $2500-3000 pair of mics and as Dave said, they do hold their resale value. Getting a set of Schoeps hypers or subcards when you've only run 4022>denecke as a reference is a more risky investment than just getting a used sax or aerco. Not that getting a used sax, aerco, schoeps subcards or hypers is going to be that easy in the first place.

Stealthing a sax is not bad, it's a little longer than the aerco, but it's also able to get thru wands while I'm not sure if the aerco or SD MP-2 can.

The other option for stealth is to drop the r-09 and denecke and just get an all-in-one (722, Marantz, Fostex, etc.)

I know you don't live in NYC so getting seats closer than where you'd need to run hypers shouldn't be an issue as long as you play the ticketmaster/ebay games for getting the best seats in the house as documented in this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92810.0.html. And even if you don't get sweet spot seats for every show you go to, the 4022s will still cover all but those few times.

[scb]

you say you want a "different sound," but don't know what sound you want, and are willing to spend 3 grand on whatever people here tell you to?


that doesn't sound like the smartest of decisions.  you already have some nice mics.  i'd probably do what george said and get a preamp, which might give a "different sound"

or ditch the r9 and get a 722, since you're so willing to spend money

[bluntforcetrauma]

With  my Denecke PS-2 and the Hosa transformers cables

i could get rid  most of this just by using a preamp?

now the sonasax is a little bigger than the aerco?

the aerco is aluminum so will it go off with a wand at at venue or metal detector?

No ima not going with exactly what other people say i am jsut getting some reference on what my choices could be and with this post i found that there are many choices with which i would have never known if i did no ask the question.

[gewwang]

Sonosax dimensions:
5,75" x 3,4" x 1,6" (146 x 85 x 40mm), 0,95lbs (435g) with batteries



You'd run the XLR's into the mic inputs


Then run the XLR's out or mini out (mini out is on the same side as mic inputs) from the line outputs


http://www.sonosax.ch/SXM2/sxm2.html

[JasonSobel]

With  my Denecke PS-2 and the Hosa transformers cables

i could get rid  most of this just by using a preamp?

now the sonasax is a little bigger than the aerco?

yes, with the Denecke PS-2 provides phantom power and the hosa transformers provide a little bit of gian.
with a pre-amp, you'd cover both of these requirements, and you'd have control over the gain.

here's a detailed thread about the aerco:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,56579.0.html
the dimensions are: 1.5' x 3' x 4'
so yes, it is smaller than the Sonosax.
The aerco has XLR inputs and RCA outputs, and all connectors and switches are located on the same side of the unit.
and because each one is made to order, if you buy new, you can choose stepped gain or continuous, and a few other options as well.

[H₂O]

Personally I between the two I would get hypers or even cards before I would get subs - they are definitely not as versitile as hypers or cards.  With subs, you need to be very close to the source for best results and due to the pattern they are more sensitive surrounding noise (i.e. reflections, crowd noise, etc)

[gewwang]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

Funny, I'd say the exact opposite.  High SPLs generally = boom from reflections.  Hard rock generally = poor venues. Subcards do not reject off-axis boom very well. Certainly not as well as cards or hypers.

[bluntforcetrauma]

The aerco has XLR inputs and RCA outputs, and all connectors and switches are located on the same side of the unit.
and because each one is made to order, if you buy new, you can choose stepped gain or continuous, and a few other options as well.


1. does the aerco pass the metal detector and wand test

2.  what is better stepped gain or continuous?

Do they still make the sonosax pre amp?

please i love the help thanks so much

[gewwang]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

Funny, I'd say the exact opposite.  High SPLs generally = boom from reflections.  Hard rock generally = poor venues. Subcards do not reject off-axis boom very well. Certainly not as well as cards or hypers.

Guess I've been spoiled, I've been taping hard rock acts at the Chicago HOB and the Metro this year with the 4023s but I unfortunately never got a chance to try out subcards.

[JD]

Do they still make the sonosax pre amp?

Yes they still make the sonosax pre, I beleive they go for about $1000 to $1100 new.
Used they seem to fetch about $600 to $800, but they don't show up all that often.

I have made some nice recordings going 4022 > sonosax sx-m2 > R09.

[bluntforcetrauma]

Do they still make the sonosax pre amp?

Yes they still make the sonosax pre, I beleive they go for about $1000 to $1100 new.
Used they seem to fetch about $600 to $800, but they don't show up all that often.

I have made some nice recordings going 4022 > sonosax sx-m2 > R09.

i can't seem to find a vendor for the sonsoax sx-m2, George gave me  a web site but it was jsut description

where may i buy

thanks so much

[JD]

Do they still make the sonosax pre amp?

Yes they still make the sonosax pre, I beleive they go for about $1000 to $1100 new.
Used they seem to fetch about $600 to $800, but they don't show up all that often.

I have made some nice recordings going 4022 > sonosax sx-m2 > R09.

i can't seem to find a vendor for the sonsoax sx-m2, George gave me  a web site but it was jsut description

where may i buy

thanks so much

Try here.
http://www.cascademedia.net/categories.asp?catid=123

[scb]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

Funny, I'd say the exact opposite.  High SPLs generally = boom from reflections.  Hard rock generally = poor venues. Subcards do not reject off-axis boom very well. Certainly not as well as cards or hypers.

Guess I've been spoiled, I've been taping hard rock acts at the Chicago HOB and the Metro this year with the 4023s but I unfortunately never got a chance to try out subcards.

when would you like to?

[gewwang]

http://www.sonosax.com/index2.html

http://sonosax.ch/sonosax_used_equipment.html

They have one in the used/clearance area.

But maybe you should get one of these:
http://sonosax.ch/sx_recorders.html

[gewwang]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

Funny, I'd say the exact opposite.  High SPLs generally = boom from reflections.  Hard rock generally = poor venues. Subcards do not reject off-axis boom very well. Certainly not as well as cards or hypers.

Guess I've been spoiled, I've been taping hard rock acts at the Chicago HOB and the Metro this year with the 4023s but I unfortunately never got a chance to try out subcards.

when would you like to?

I've got a few shows coming up, I'll have to see where I'm sitting first but I think they're close to the stage. Might have to take you up on that

[bluntforcetrauma]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

Funny, I'd say the exact opposite.  High SPLs generally = boom from reflections.  Hard rock generally = poor venues. Subcards do not reject off-axis boom very well. Certainly not as well as cards or hypers.

Guess I've been spoiled, I've been taping hard rock acts at the Chicago HOB and the Metro this year with the 4023s but I unfortunately never got a chance to try out subcards.

when would you like to?

I've got a few shows coming up, I'll have to see where I'm sitting first but I think they're close to the stage. Might have to take you up on that

George--where would you buy the sonosax pre amp, the site you linked was last updated in 2005.

What u.s company or distibuter would you suggest to get this from?

also do i get the STANDARD model?

there are also options like:
spring knobs
mono/stereo switch
lemo and binder connectors


please advise

George--do you just have the standard version?

I just want a trusted seller

thanks

[Crumbo]

Do they still make the sonosax pre amp?

Yes they still make the sonosax pre, I beleive they go for about $1000 to $1100 new.
Used they seem to fetch about $600 to $800, but they don't show up all that often.

I have made some nice recordings going 4022 > sonosax sx-m2 > R09.

i can't seem to find a vendor for the sonsoax sx-m2, George gave me  a web site but it was jsut description

where may i buy

thanks so much

www.posthorn.com

[Brian Skalinder]

www.posthorn.com

Yup.  Not always the cheapest, but Jerry's one of the few vendors who knows all about the Sonosax SX-M2 (for use with DPA 402x), SX-M2/LS (I think this could be used with Neumann lemo cables + AKx caps), and SX-M2/LS2 (for use with KCY cable and MKx caps).

[gewwang]

http://sonosax.ch/sonosax_used_equipment.html

They have one in the used/clearance area.

George--where would you buy the sonosax pre amp, the site you linked was last updated in 2005.

What u.s company or distibuter would you suggest to get this from?

George--do you just have the standard version?

I just want a trusted seller

thanks

The first sax I had (that is now owned by U2's tour manager) was purchased used from a dat-heads posting. The replacement for that one came from a friend who bought his directly from Sonosax on the used equipment page I just quoted above. It came to him in pristine condition then after he ran it 3 times, he decided to get out of taping and I was in the right place at the right time as I needed the replacement the same week that he decided to sell his.

I wouldn't buy one new for that $1100 retail price, maybe a vendor would charge less though. I'd look into a 722 before I paid that much.

Because you're using XLR ins, you can just get the standard SX-M2 version.

[JD]

I wouldn't buy one new for that $1100 retail price, maybe a vendor would charge less though.

I think that's alot for one of these as well. For what its worth, I gave $600 for mine. It was used but in perfect condition.

[bluntforcetrauma]

I wouldn't buy one new for that $1100 retail price, maybe a vendor would charge less though. I'd look into a 722 before I paid that much.

isnt the 722  kinda big to stealth, I know George you do it but Where does it go comfortably?



you have all been great help

i hope i can hunt one down

[stober]

I was talking with a friend last week and he mentioned he was gonna sell his Sonosax.Not sure what he would want for it.

[bluntforcetrauma]

I was talking with a friend last week and he mentioned he was gonna sell his Sonosax.Not sure what he would want for it.

pm sent

[bluntforcetrauma]

you say you want a "different sound," but don't know what sound you want, and are willing to spend 3 grand on whatever people here tell you to?


that doesn't sound like the smartest of decisions.  you already have some nice mics.  i'd probably do what george said and get a preamp, which might give a "different sound"

or ditch the r9 and get a 722, since you're so willing to spend mone

Is the 722 really feasible to stealth,  even though i also open tape.

I stealth more, again i know George stealths with the sonosax and the 722 set ups

The r-09 with a sonosax might be better for stealth?  help ? suggestions?