Topic: Schoeps CCM41 or Schoeps MK41 for new set up

[H₂O]

In general sub cards are less directional and better for up close (as they will pick up more surrounding noise), and hypers are more directional and work better then subs or cards from far away.

Schoeps sub cards are a few hundred dollars less than hypers.  Schoeps hypers are less warm than subs as they roll off on the bass sooner and sharper (but the 41's do have more warm to them then some other types of hypers such as the nuemann AK50's).

See the tech sheets:
mk21
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-mk-ccm21.html

mk41
http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/specs-mk-ccm41.html

[pjdavep]

Would a preamp make THAT much difference in sound.  I am looking for less STUFF to take in.  Cant I make up for a lack of a preamp with post production since i use pro tools and Waves ultramaximizer plug ins

S.O.S

I think you'd have less stuff to take in with just the mics, a preamp with a mini/mini cable, and your R-09.  A transformer based preamp will warm up the sound a little bit.  Is anyone in your area that has a Sonosax that you could try?  George has made a ton of 4022/Sonosax tapes.  Do those sound like what you are aiming for?  Both the Sonosax and the Aerco hold their value well, and could be sold for the price you could buy it for if you really aren't that happy with your results.   

Bottom line is that a pre-amp will make quite a bit of difference, especially for mics like the 4022s that need a good amount of gain.  The Schoeps need a lot of gain as well, and a pre-amp is much better suited for that task as opposed to the R-09.

Later,
  pjdavep

[bluntforcetrauma]

Would a preamp make THAT much difference in sound.  I am looking for less STUFF to take in.  Cant I make up for a lack of a preamp with post production since i use pro tools and Waves ultramaximizer plug ins

S.O.S

I think you'd have less stuff to take in with just the mics, a preamp with a mini/mini cable, and your R-09.  A transformer based preamp will warm up the sound a little bit.  Is anyone in your area that has a Sonosax that you could try?  George has made a ton of 4022/Sonosax tapes.  Do those sound like what you are aiming for?  Both the Sonosax and the Aerco hold their value well, and could be sold for the price you could buy it for if you really aren't that happy with your results.   

Bottom line is that a pre-amp will make quite a bit of difference, especially for mics like the 4022s that need a good amount of gain.  The Schoeps need a lot of gain as well, and a pre-amp is much better suited for that task as opposed to the R-09.

Later,
  pjdavep

thanks pjdvep, I have listened to the sonosax from George recordings and i like it, i have not seen one in person, but the dimensions are a bit bigger than my denecke, but i know it will make a better sound

[bluntforcetrauma]

also i thought the 4023 with the lemmo and a shorter mic cable would be much easier to handle to stealth?

I think when I checked it is longer but I don't have the numbers.  Oh wait... packrat that I am:


4023 -
Microphone length:
30 mm (1.18 in); 71 mm (2.8 in) (incl. connector)

4022 -
Microphone length:
35 mm (1.38 in); 52 mm (2 in) (incl. cable relief)

So the 4023 is .8" longer from front of cap to end of cable relief.

k21 + kc5 = 1.797"

I was getting custom mic cables from schoeps (2) lengths one for stealth one for open if i went with the ccm41's
so you think the k21 + kc5 would be that much longer.

I am just trying to minimize my mic cable length, i end up vecro loop of like 2 feet and its a little weighted when stealthing anlong with the denecke>2 hosa mit176 iwth RCA ends>y cable 3.5mm end into r-09


some suggest the caps with nbox?

[JasonSobel]

bluntforcetrauma - you really must decide on your own which caps would be most appropriate to buy.  While I understand everyone suggesting the subcards (because of their wonderful sound), those people seem to be ignoring the realities of the taping situations you find yourself in.  Yes, in a perfect world, we'd all be dead center and in the sweet spot - but as much as we try to make that happen, as you say, we're often taping from less than ideal positions.  For those "less than ideal" conditions, I think you'd be happier with a set of hypers rather than a set of sub-cards.

as far as the pre-amp route, yes, it'll make a big difference.  getting something like an Aerco or a Sonosax would be nice and compact (I think the Aerco more-so than the Sonosax, although I'm not sure of the dimensions offhand).  and by getting a pre-amp, you'd be replacing the Denecke PS-2 and the Hosa transformers, which would clean up a bit of the cable mess as well.  on top of that, you'd be getting cleaner gain then you could get with the R09 (and definitely better than adding gain in post).

some suggest the caps with nbox?

the nbox is a custom made box (not by schoeps) that will allow you to run the Schoeps caps without a pair of Schoeps bodies (or without a VST62 stereo body).  the advantages is that it allows you to run different caps, and you don't need the bodies.  With this setup, you wouldn't have a need for the Aerco, as you'd just run "schoeps caps > nbox > r09", certainly a nice and compact rig.  However, the decision on which schoeps cap to buy should NOT depend on the whether or not you go the nbox route.  What I'm saying is, regardless if you go nbox, or regular caps > kcy > VST62, or the ccm route, the same type of capsule will be more appropriate.  You should choose that first, I'd think.

now, because you say that you are planning to keep the 4022's, I'd recommend going the ccm route (either the ccm41 or the ccm21, whatever you decide you need, hypers or subcards), and picking up an Aerco.  The aerco would be a great option for both the Schoeps ccm series, as well as the 4022's that you already own.

[grider]

in my experience, a preamp can make a huge difference, although I run transparent mics much more susceptible to the coloration of a preamp as opposed to your precolored Schoeps, if you run a transparent preamp you should be able to retain the Schoeps sound pretty easily; I would run the ccm41's if I had to choose

[gewwang]

Would a preamp make THAT much difference in sound.  I am looking for less STUFF to take in.  Cant I make up for a lack of a preamp with post production since i use pro tools and Waves ultramaximizer plug ins

S.O.S

I think you'd have less stuff to take in with just the mics, a preamp with a mini/mini cable, and your R-09.  A transformer based preamp will warm up the sound a little bit.  Is anyone in your area that has a Sonosax that you could try?  George has made a ton of 4022/Sonosax tapes.  Do those sound like what you are aiming for?  Both the Sonosax and the Aerco hold their value well, and could be sold for the price you could buy it for if you really aren't that happy with your results.   

Bottom line is that a pre-amp will make quite a bit of difference, especially for mics like the 4022s that need a good amount of gain.  The Schoeps need a lot of gain as well, and a pre-amp is much better suited for that task as opposed to the R-09.

Later,
  pjdavep

thanks pjdvep, I have listened to the sonosax from George recordings and i like it, i have not seen one in person, but the dimensions are a bit bigger than my denecke, but i know it will make a better sound

If you like the 4022>sonosax sound then get a sonosax and run it for a few shows to see how you like it. That's a much smaller investment than getting another $2500-3000 pair of mics and as Dave said, they do hold their resale value. Getting a set of Schoeps hypers or subcards when you've only run 4022>denecke as a reference is a more risky investment than just getting a used sax or aerco. Not that getting a used sax, aerco, schoeps subcards or hypers is going to be that easy in the first place.

Stealthing a sax is not bad, it's a little longer than the aerco, but it's also able to get thru wands while I'm not sure if the aerco or SD MP-2 can.

The other option for stealth is to drop the r-09 and denecke and just get an all-in-one (722, Marantz, Fostex, etc.)

I know you don't live in NYC so getting seats closer than where you'd need to run hypers shouldn't be an issue as long as you play the ticketmaster/ebay games for getting the best seats in the house as documented in this thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,92810.0.html. And even if you don't get sweet spot seats for every show you go to, the 4022s will still cover all but those few times.

[scb]

you say you want a "different sound," but don't know what sound you want, and are willing to spend 3 grand on whatever people here tell you to?


that doesn't sound like the smartest of decisions.  you already have some nice mics.  i'd probably do what george said and get a preamp, which might give a "different sound"

or ditch the r9 and get a 722, since you're so willing to spend money

[bluntforcetrauma]

With  my Denecke PS-2 and the Hosa transformers cables

i could get rid  most of this just by using a preamp?

now the sonasax is a little bigger than the aerco?

the aerco is aluminum so will it go off with a wand at at venue or metal detector?

No ima not going with exactly what other people say i am jsut getting some reference on what my choices could be and with this post i found that there are many choices with which i would have never known if i did no ask the question.

[gewwang]

Sonosax dimensions:
5,75" x 3,4" x 1,6" (146 x 85 x 40mm), 0,95lbs (435g) with batteries



You'd run the XLR's into the mic inputs


Then run the XLR's out or mini out (mini out is on the same side as mic inputs) from the line outputs


http://www.sonosax.ch/SXM2/sxm2.html

[JasonSobel]

With  my Denecke PS-2 and the Hosa transformers cables

i could get rid  most of this just by using a preamp?

now the sonasax is a little bigger than the aerco?

yes, with the Denecke PS-2 provides phantom power and the hosa transformers provide a little bit of gian.
with a pre-amp, you'd cover both of these requirements, and you'd have control over the gain.

here's a detailed thread about the aerco:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,56579.0.html
the dimensions are: 1.5' x 3' x 4'
so yes, it is smaller than the Sonosax.
The aerco has XLR inputs and RCA outputs, and all connectors and switches are located on the same side of the unit.
and because each one is made to order, if you buy new, you can choose stepped gain or continuous, and a few other options as well.

[H₂O]

Personally I between the two I would get hypers or even cards before I would get subs - they are definitely not as versitile as hypers or cards.  With subs, you need to be very close to the source for best results and due to the pattern they are more sensitive surrounding noise (i.e. reflections, crowd noise, etc)

[gewwang]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I believe bluntforcetrauma tapes alot of hard rock, so the high SPLs should be well suited for subcards.

Funny, I'd say the exact opposite.  High SPLs generally = boom from reflections.  Hard rock generally = poor venues. Subcards do not reject off-axis boom very well. Certainly not as well as cards or hypers.

[bluntforcetrauma]

The aerco has XLR inputs and RCA outputs, and all connectors and switches are located on the same side of the unit.
and because each one is made to order, if you buy new, you can choose stepped gain or continuous, and a few other options as well.


1. does the aerco pass the metal detector and wand test

2.  what is better stepped gain or continuous?

Do they still make the sonosax pre amp?

please i love the help thanks so much