Topic: FOB vs. Matrix in this situation

[Sloan Simpson]

I ended up borrowing a friend's 680 to run at the board, and will run my rig in the FOB spot.

Now I just need a crowd to turn out for the show 

[Marshall7]

Now I just need a crowd to turn out for the show 

sounds like the same problem I had when I put on a few shows.  Good luck, Sloan!

[Sloan Simpson]

It ended up being one of those shows where the audience tape turned out so well I don't really see a point in mixing the soundboard in  The crowd was a respectable size, but everyone was into the music and didn't yap 

[obaaron]

Nice glad to hear it worked out!

[Gutbucket]

Score!

[F.O.Bean]

SCHWEET Sloan

[baustin]

If you're going to plug your onstage mics into the snake, just make sure the FOH has available/gives you sufficient phantom power for the mics    

This advice is based upon a recent negative experience.

If you unpatch the snake channels from the board's inputs it's not an issue. If the FOH engineer wants to leave the channels patched into the board and routes the channels to an output for you, then he'll have to deal with phantom.

I always try and unplug from the sbd if possible. It gives me control of the channels and prevents them from having to deal with it (a win/win in my environment). I actually have a venue that won't let us plug our stuff into the sbd and only lets us use the snake if we pull the channels.

as i rarely tape anymore, this is how i pretty much exclusively run these days

[morst]

I have two M10's, and prefer to run one off the SBD, and one in the sweet spot, and "deal with the drift." If the SBD is AT the sweet spot, then the best move is to use a multitrack rig (even the R44 works great) so you don't have to deal with clock drift. On the other hand, Picklemic runs R44, and prefers mics on-stage > snake > R44 + SBD > R44, and gets great results too.

Glad it worked out for ya.

[ScoobieKW]

On the other hand, Picklemic runs R44, and prefers mics on-stage > snake > R44 + SBD > R44, and gets great results too.

Picklemic prefers it because he understands a fundamental rule of mixing live music. The PA is for sound reinforcement. In all but large venue shows, it's job is to add what's missing from the stage volume. Amps and Drums are loudest on stage, and vocals, keys, kick drum often need reinforcement in the PA.

In other words,

PA + Onstage Volume = Audience mix

So when you're taping
SBD + Onstage = What the audience heard but clearer and less room interaction
SBD + Audience you are mixing SBD with SBD + Onstage Volume not as natural of a balance.

So, what I like to do is,

SBD + Onstage + Audience (Audience needs time alignment)
SBD + Onstage + Stage mics aimed at audience

This gives you live ambience with clarity, and the ability to adjust for loud crowds.

[morst]

SBD + Onstage + Audience (Audience needs time alignment)

YES in case nobody else mentioned this, the audience recording from anywhere past the "speaker plane" (typically somewhere near the stage lip) will require not just a clock drift match, but a time shift to line up with the direct SBD feed. Excellent point Scoobie!

[danlynch]

"SBD + Audience you are mixing SBD with SBD + Onstage Volume not as natural of a balance."

Can you explain what you mean by this, but I think I disagree in part if you're saying what I think you're saying.

[ScoobieKW]

OK, in the room at the show, what you hear is a combination of

A. The sound of the instruments onstage. Drums, Amps
B. The PA. This is a mix of instruments to balance out the different volumes coming off stage. Vocals, kick drum, some bass, keys are often predominant in the PA.

So, think of mics in the audience as A+B.

If you combine audience mics with a soundboard, you are emphasizing the PA mix by adding in more PA (B) to an already balanced mix (A+B).

If you combine onstage mics with audience mics, you are emphasizing the onstage sound by adding in more Stage (A) to the already balanced mix (A+B)

If you combine onstage mics + a soundboard you can mix the same balance of Stage (A) and PA (B) to get a clean sound (A+B) but the only audience you'll get is bleed into the onstage mics. This is often too dry for one who prefers audience tapes.

The Six channel approach solves this. Onstage (A) + Soundboard (B) + Audience mics (A+B).

I'm not saying that audience and soundboard can't sound good, but that it has a flavor due to which sources you are mixing.

[danlynch]

I agree that the 6-mic approach is ideal, but of course its not always possible.

Now this:
"If you combine audience mics with a soundboard, you are emphasizing the PA mix by adding in more PA (B) to an already balanced mix (A+B)."

I agree that in a perfect setting ("already balanced mix") the room mics are emphasizing what is essentially the board feed.  This is especially true in a "pointed at stacks" or a "stack tape".  But in practice, the reality is quite often different.  I can't count how many times the vocals or the keys have been so buried in the room mix that the mixed-in board feed literally saved a recording from the trash bin.  We record in a lot of small to medium sized rooms where sometimes the placement of our mics is close enough to be a semi-onstage, so its even another kind of mix.  The point I guess is that everything is relative, and in many situations the choice about how to approach the recording is specific to the room.

[ScoobieKW]

I forgot to add the important caveat,

"With a good engineer at FOH"

Without a good engineer in the room, I'd rather bring out my 16 track interface and mix the band later at home.