Author Topic: R-09 Live Matrix Question? (Read 2568 times)

bhakti · « **on:** March 06, 2008, 01:14:54 AM »

Hey guys

I wasn't sure where to put this, but figured "Recording Gear" was probably the most appropriate as it has to do the setting a AUD/SBD recording at the show...

anyways, can i get a mini-jack splitter and run two mono mini jacks into the splitter, one being a mono feed off the desk and one be a mono feed off my CA St-11's into my Edirol R-09? Will this work? Firstly, it would have to be a mono desk mix, meaning that there was no stereo panning going on off the desk as I would then get a false representation of the show [like the show i recorded last night - which was panned] and secondly, i usually run RCA out of the desk and would need to then get a RCA > mono mini jack cable right? I presume I would need to find out which mono feed was going to which channel as well [Left & Right] and more importantly trying to set the levels of each of them... all in all a tricky process, i probably wouldn't get a chance to do this kind of setup at many gigs [not being a sound engineer - and not wanting to piss the dude off so much setting all this up], but maybe sometimes I could...

anyways, sorry for the long shpeel of writing my thoughts out loud in an automated fashion... thanks for listening and if anyone has any experience with this matter, your thoughts would be kindly appreciated...

thanks guys...

bhakti

boyacrobat · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2008, 06:09:08 AM »

unorthadox method of matrix capture, but it will work.
work in post for optimum level sit of two sources.

you will still create stereo with this capture if mono desk feed by the way

maby haas effect in post for more depth .

happy captures and good luck with it.

g

SmokinJoe · « **Reply #2 on:** March 06, 2008, 06:53:24 AM »

So you are going to do SBD > left channel, MIC > right channel, and then mix them together in post to make a mono mix? That would work I guess.

Keep in mind that your mic capture will be a few milliseconds behind the sbd capture... sound traveling through wires is pretty much instantaneous (speed of light), but it takes about .001 seconds/foot for the sound to travel through the air from the stack to your mic (speed of sound). So in post if it's 20 feet from stack to mic, you should plan to delete about .020 off the start of the AUD track.

If you are planning to do this often, I would suggest you pick up a yardsale JB3, use that for the SBD, and R-09 for aud, and mix them in post for real stereo.

bhakti · « **Reply #3 on:** March 06, 2008, 09:21:38 AM »

thanks guys... +T you kind folks...

so yes, I plan to go SBD - left channel & AUD - right channel... should work...
I can use my ol' MD to get an audience source, but then I have to do a time stretch to get them to the same point as one of them [I suspect the MD] runs a little slow/fast... Had that problem with a Preston Reed show I recorded...

Anyhoo, not something I'll do all that often as it is a mission in post but still cool to try...
thanks for your help... i reckon it should work... not sure if i'll get a stereo feed off the desk if i'm taking a left tape out of the desk, but maybe...

thanks guys...

bhakti

ShawnF · « **Reply #4 on:** March 06, 2008, 12:37:52 PM »

Quote from: bhakti on March 06, 2008, 09:21:38 AM

not sure if i'll get a stereo feed off the desk if i'm taking a left tape out of the desk, but maybe...

If this is in response to what boyacrobat said, I think he just meant that your R-09 recording will be stereo, as you'll have different signals in L and R channels, but I think you're well aware of this. I'd just ask the sound guy if he's running mono; if so, it shouldn't matter which RCA you take.

stantheman1976 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 06, 2008, 12:59:42 PM »

Even if the board is mono if you're going from the proper output it will send the same signal to both channels. You can use a stereo 1/8" splitter which should send both the mics and the SBD feed to both channels in the recording. Right? I've tried it once at a church service using my iRiver and it worked alright. Obviously not the perfect way to do things but if you just want to make a no fuss on-the-fly matrix it's fine.

ShawnF · « **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2008, 09:05:48 PM »

This confuses me. I don't think the goal is to send the sbd and mic signal to both channels--they are going to be mixed in post, if I'm understanding the idea properly. Why would you want to take away the ability to process each source independently (if needed) and have total control over the mix of the two sources? Just seems like extra steps for a lot less control over the final outcome to me. Also, there would be no way to compensate for the delay with the mics if need be.

stantheman1976 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2008, 10:15:49 PM »

My understanding of the original post was that he wanted a quick, simple way to do an on-the-fly matrix of a SBD/mic mix occasionally. No, it's not the ideal setup but in a pinch it could be decent depending on the environment. How much of a delay could there be between the mics and SBD if you're set up in a smaller venue not that far from the stage?

bhakti · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2008, 12:48:55 AM »

i pretty much want just that... a quick and easy setup that I can deal with in post... i imagine i would have to set the SBD levels first [as I have less control on the level out] and set the AUD accordingly with my CA preamp... it is all a bit of a mission, but I could easily remedy it all in post... particularly the slight delay... that's easy...

i think if I took a mono feed out of the headphone jack or something else, that would be fine, but the RCA tape out L/R one could be a bit tricky if its going to be panned in stereo... very few gigs i attend are panned anyway....

thanks again guys...

stantheman1976 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2008, 09:07:54 AM »

I bleieve if you used the splitter it's going to send either input to both channels so you'll still get everything going into both channels. You won't have separate feeds you can change in post.

bhakti · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2008, 09:52:42 AM »

Quote from: stantheman1976 on March 07, 2008, 09:07:54 AM

I bleieve if you used the splitter it's going to send either input to both channels so you'll still get everything going into both channels. You won't have separate feeds you can change in post.

really? oh no, that won't work then... are you sure? will the splitter not send it to each separate channel if i run mono cables into the splitter?

stantheman1976 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2008, 10:58:58 AM »

The female inputs of the splitter whatever signal you give it on each side, mono or stereo. Then it goes into a stereo connection into the recorder. So even if you give it a mono feed on one conenction it will send that to both chanels equally. AFAIK there's no way to use one connector to send a separate signal to each channel unless maybe a special one exists somewhere that does just that, or if possibly one could be made. The standard splitter you'll buy at your local electronics store just splits whatever signal it receives equally though.

ShawnF · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2008, 11:39:02 AM »

I think we're making this too difficult. Use something like this:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2477709&cp=2032058.2032228.2032251&allCount=89&fbn=Cable+type%2FY-adapters&f=PAD%2FCable+Type%2FY-adapters&fbc=1&parentPage=family

plug one RCA end into the board (if it's a small place, it's almost certainly going to be mono, but you can get a mono female RCA> 2 male RCA splitter that you can use in reverse to combine the two RCA outs into one mono signal, too). Get an 1/8" female>RCA female adaptor and connect that to the other RCA. Plug your 1/8" male cable from your mics into the adaptor. Two separate channels that will remain separate going into the recorder (otherwise the primary use of this cable, sending your ipod signal to a home stereo, I imagine) wouldn't result in a stereo signal. I really think you're going to have much more usable results if you keep the mics on one channel and the board on the other. The delay may well not be a factor, but getting the mix right between the two sources is going to be difficult otherwise, and you get no second chances on-the-fly.

I don't own an R-09--can you set the levels of the two channels independently? That would help a lot, but it should still be doable even if not, set the level so the sbd is appropriate, then adjust the mic preamp to a good level, as you suggested.

bhakti · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2008, 02:39:30 PM »

nice one man... i think i get you... best solution so far i think...

so i use the usual RCA>mini-jack and bang a female adaptor onto the one allowing me to connect to my mics?
makes sense if thats what you mean...

and no, you can't set individual levels on each channel... however I have a preamp for the mics so will set the SBD feed metering and then just adjust the gain on the pre accordingly...

all in all a bit of a mission... i must also say i'm usually VERY happy with my straight SBD recordings, but I'd like to try this out when I get time to get all the adaptors and can find a gig where the engineer doesn't mind all this...

HUGE thanks guys... good to learn all this... +T's all round...