Topic: Preamp? Do I need one of those?

[bogusjack]

Hello Everyone:  I'm new to this board and boy I am glad I found you.  I am a beginner so please, any help would be appreciated.  My current setup is SP-CMC-8 cards >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in or at times I use Oade Micro Mics (binaural) >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in.  I typically go to rock concerts, Roger Waters, Springsteen, Mellencamp, & Seger are just a few that I've been to lately.  As you can see based on those artists, you must record in stealth mode.

My questions are:  What is the benefit of a preamp?  I've taped shows, come home, run them through audacity and they sound great to me.  If I should get a preamp, would the CA-Ugly work with the mics and rig I have?

Also, I noticed when I use the Oade Micro Mics that the sound is a bit more on the bass.  The CMC-8 are a little more on the treble.  When I run them through audacity I usually adjust the equalization according to each one.  If I use the Micro Mics, I raise the treble a bit.  If I use the CMC-8, then I raise the bass a bit.  Very little adjustment is needed.

Would there be any benefit in getting the CA-14 or the CA-11 mics instead of my current setup?  It seems that are very popular in this forum. 

One other thing, it appears that the best way to discuss stealth ideas is through pm.  Would some of you give me some ideas?

Thanks!

Bogus Jack

[acidjack]

The short answer to your question re: preamp is no.  They're mainly useful for adding gain at quieter shows.  The PMD620 has good internal preamps and you are not likely to see much difference stealthing loud shows.

Your second question, "should I upgrade to CA-14/CA-11" should be answered by listening to sources of these mics on the archive and deciding for yourself whether you like them better than what you have.  My personal opinion is the CA-11 is a lateral move at best compared to what you have.  The CA-14s should have improved bass response of the CMC-8s, which many folks find to be too thin on the bass.  So, the CA-14 cards could be an inexpensive upgrade for you.

I'm less familiar with the Oade mics, but as long as you're happy with them I probably wouldn't switch to a different flavor of omni, personally, unless I was moving to something like the Countryman B3, DPA 4061, or Nevaton MCE400.  The CA-14 omnis sound quite good, but they are larger than what you have.  But again, listen to stuff on the LMA and decide for yourself.

[genesisoh]

For the kind of shows you are recording, a BB should be sufficient.  However, if you added a preamp (like the CA 9100) it would give you the option of increasing the gain should a show be quieter than expected.  Otherwise you can run the preamp at 11:00 and it will be the same as if you were using a BB.  I have been using CA-14 omnis and cards and am very satisfied with them.  Chris is running a special right now and/or you can find them periodically in the yard sale at reasonable prices.  For the price, CA-14 mics rock!!! :-)

[adrianf74]

Hello Everyone:  I'm new to this board and boy I am glad I found you.  I am a beginner so please, any help would be appreciated.  My current setup is SP-CMC-8 cards >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in or at times I use Oade Micro Mics (binaural) >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in.  I typically go to rock concerts, Roger Waters, Springsteen, Mellencamp, & Seger are just a few that I've been to lately.  As you can see based on those artists, you must record in stealth mode.

My questions are:  What is the benefit of a preamp?  I've taped shows, come home, run them through audacity and they sound great to me.  If I should get a preamp, would the CA-Ugly work with the mics and rig I have?

Also, I noticed when I use the Oade Micro Mics that the sound is a bit more on the bass.  The CMC-8 are a little more on the treble.  When I run them through audacity I usually adjust the equalization according to each one.  If I use the Micro Mics, I raise the treble a bit.  If I use the CMC-8, then I raise the bass a bit.  Very little adjustment is needed.

Would there be any benefit in getting the CA-14 or the CA-11 mics instead of my current setup?  It seems that are very popular in this forum. 

One other thing, it appears that the best way to discuss stealth ideas is through pm.  Would some of you give me some ideas?

Thanks!

Bogus Jack

Which version of the CMC-8's are you using?  Are they the AT-933 (up to about the mid 2000's) or the AT-943's (2004/5-ish to now)?  I had the AT-933/c's from SoundPros (bought in early 2003) and the CA-14's smoke 'em.  I also prefer the sound of the CA-14's to the 943's as well (but that's just me).

As mentioned, Chris Church has a deal on the 9100 with two CA-14's running until tomorrow - check the Retail Space for more info.  You don't really need a preamp unless you're recording quieter stuff although it's nice to be able to drive the mics harder when you're in a quieter place without relying on your deck's preamp, however, most decks now have a pretty good noise floor.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The question isn't "Do I need one of those?" ... It is "how many do I need?"

And the answer is... Plenty!

PSP-2, AERCO, Littlebox, AERCO, Tiny Box, v2/v3....  Those will cover most situations.  Some would add the m148 to that list, and they'd probably be right.  But I've never owned one - some people are a bit over the top.

And then there are the tubes...

[acidjack]

The question isn't "Do I need one of those?" ... It is "how many do I need?"

And the answer is... Plenty!

PSP-2, AERCO, Littlebox, AERCO, Tiny Box, v2/v3....  Those will cover most situations.  Some would add the m148 to that list, and they'd probably be right.  But I've never owned one - some people are a bit over the top.

And then there are the tubes...

For a fullsize rig, yes, absolutely.  But for stealthing with small omnis and cards of the types the OP mentioned?  Considering that the pres you listed (all P48) don't even work with the OP's configuration for the most part, I think not...

[Church-Audio]

I think the important thing to remember is my mics with the 4.7k mod my mics are at least 12 db less sensitive than mics with out the mod. So sometimes a preamp is needed it all depends on the sound pressure level of the show and where you are in relation to the PA if you are always close to the main pa I would say you can get away with not having it but if you are far away then a preamp does make sense. My preamp is going to have a better noise floor then most recorders will.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The question isn't "Do I need one of those?" ... It is "how many do I need?"

And the answer is... Plenty!

PSP-2, AERCO, Littlebox, AERCO, Tiny Box, v2/v3....  Those will cover most situations.  Some would add the m148 to that list, and they'd probably be right.  But I've never owned one - some people are a bit over the top.

And then there are the tubes...

For a fullsize rig, yes, absolutely.  But for stealthing with small omnis and cards of the types the OP mentioned?  Considering that the pres you listed (all P48) don't even work with the OP's configuration for the most part, I think not...

Stop making sense.

[acidjack]

The question isn't "Do I need one of those?" ... It is "how many do I need?"

And the answer is... Plenty!

PSP-2, AERCO, Littlebox, AERCO, Tiny Box, v2/v3....  Those will cover most situations.  Some would add the m148 to that list, and they'd probably be right.  But I've never owned one - some people are a bit over the top.

And then there are the tubes...

For a fullsize rig, yes, absolutely.  But for stealthing with small omnis and cards of the types the OP mentioned?  Considering that the pres you listed (all P48) don't even work with the OP's configuration for the most part, I think not...

Stop making sense.

I mean, clearly, the best answer is a multiple-caps Schoeps setup (MK5, MK22, MK21, MK4V), CMRs and a tinybox and go from there... but I digress.... 

[hi and lo]

I mean, clearly, the best answer is a multiple-caps Schoeps setup (MK5, MK22, MK21, MK4V), CMRs and a tinybox and go from there...

[F.O.Bean]

The question isn't "Do I need one of those?" ... It is "how many do I need?"

And the answer is... Plenty!

PSP-2, AERCO, Littlebox, AERCO, Tiny Box, v2/v3....  Those will cover most situations.  Some would add the m148 to that list, and they'd probably be right.  But I've never owned one - some people are a bit over the top.

And then there are the tubes...

For a fullsize rig, yes, absolutely.  But for stealthing with small omnis and cards of the types the OP mentioned?  Considering that the pres you listed (all P48) don't even work with the OP's configuration for the most part, I think not...

Stop making sense.

I mean, clearly, the best answer is a multiple-caps Schoeps setup (MK5, MK22, MK21, MK4V), CMRs and a tinybox and go from there... but I digress.... 

You forgot the mk41s

[Fried Chicken Boy]

You forgot the mk41s

 

[bogusjack]

Hello Everyone:  I'm new to this board and boy I am glad I found you.  I am a beginner so please, any help would be appreciated.  My current setup is SP-CMC-8 cards >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in or at times I use Oade Micro Mics (binaural) >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in.  I typically go to rock concerts, Roger Waters, Springsteen, Mellencamp, & Seger are just a few that I've been to lately.  As you can see based on those artists, you must record in stealth mode.

My questions are:  What is the benefit of a preamp?  I've taped shows, come home, run them through audacity and they sound great to me.  If I should get a preamp, would the CA-Ugly work with the mics and rig I have?

Also, I noticed when I use the Oade Micro Mics that the sound is a bit more on the bass.  The CMC-8 are a little more on the treble.  When I run them through audacity I usually adjust the equalization according to each one.  If I use the Micro Mics, I raise the treble a bit.  If I use the CMC-8, then I raise the bass a bit.  Very little adjustment is needed.

Would there be any benefit in getting the CA-14 or the CA-11 mics instead of my current setup?  It seems that are very popular in this forum. 

One other thing, it appears that the best way to discuss stealth ideas is through pm.  Would some of you give me some ideas?

Thanks!

Bogus Jack

Which version of the CMC-8's are you using?  Are they the AT-933 (up to about the mid 2000's) or the AT-943's (2004/5-ish to now)?  I had the AT-933/c's from SoundPros (bought in early 2003) and the CA-14's smoke 'em.  I also prefer the sound of the CA-14's to the 943's as well (but that's just me).

As mentioned, Chris Church has a deal on the 9100 with two CA-14's running until tomorrow - check the Retail Space for more info.  You don't really need a preamp unless you're recording quieter stuff although it's nice to be able to drive the mics harder when you're in a quieter place without relying on your deck's preamp, however, most decks now have a pretty good noise floor.

I have the AT-933 in croakies.  I purchased them around 2001 or 2002.  They sound fine, but I have to bump up the bass through audacity a bit.

Acidjack had mentioned the countrymen b3 or the dpa4061 for binaurals.  I did a google search and only found 2 vendors.  Sweetwater and BHphotovideo.  Do you all have a preference? 

Church Audio:  Can I run your CA-14's into my PMD620 with just my battery box or would I need your preamp?

[acidjack]

B&H and Sweetwater are both fine vendors.  Keep in mind that both the 4061 and the B3, for optimal stealth usage, will need to be terminated in a single 1/8" stereo miniplug, like all your mics are now.  Unless you're good at that kind of thing, you'll need to pay someone to do it for you.  Chris Church did an excellent job on my 4061s. 

Also, I believe the PMD620 is one of the few decks that can adequately run some stealth mics without a pre or a battery box; but not having one, I have not tested that myself.

[Church-Audio]

Hello Everyone:  I'm new to this board and boy I am glad I found you.  I am a beginner so please, any help would be appreciated.  My current setup is SP-CMC-8 cards >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in or at times I use Oade Micro Mics (binaural) >SP-BB>PMD620 running line in.  I typically go to rock concerts, Roger Waters, Springsteen, Mellencamp, & Seger are just a few that I've been to lately.  As you can see based on those artists, you must record in stealth mode.

My questions are:  What is the benefit of a preamp?  I've taped shows, come home, run them through audacity and they sound great to me.  If I should get a preamp, would the CA-Ugly work with the mics and rig I have?

Also, I noticed when I use the Oade Micro Mics that the sound is a bit more on the bass.  The CMC-8 are a little more on the treble.  When I run them through audacity I usually adjust the equalization according to each one.  If I use the Micro Mics, I raise the treble a bit.  If I use the CMC-8, then I raise the bass a bit.  Very little adjustment is needed.

Would there be any benefit in getting the CA-14 or the CA-11 mics instead of my current setup?  It seems that are very popular in this forum. 

One other thing, it appears that the best way to discuss stealth ideas is through pm.  Would some of you give me some ideas?

Thanks!

Bogus Jack

Which version of the CMC-8's are you using?  Are they the AT-933 (up to about the mid 2000's) or the AT-943's (2004/5-ish to now)?  I had the AT-933/c's from SoundPros (bought in early 2003) and the CA-14's smoke 'em.  I also prefer the sound of the CA-14's to the 943's as well (but that's just me).

As mentioned, Chris Church has a deal on the 9100 with two CA-14's running until tomorrow - check the Retail Space for more info.  You don't really need a preamp unless you're recording quieter stuff although it's nice to be able to drive the mics harder when you're in a quieter place without relying on your deck's preamp, however, most decks now have a pretty good noise floor.

I have the AT-933 in croakies.  I purchased them around 2001 or 2002.  They sound fine, but I have to bump up the bass through audacity a bit.

Acidjack had mentioned the countrymen b3 or the dpa4061 for binaurals.  I did a google search and only found 2 vendors.  Sweetwater and BHphotovideo.  Do you all have a preference? 

Church Audio:  Can I run your CA-14's into my PMD620 with just my battery box or would I need your preamp?

Impossible question to answer maybe yes maybe no. You might get to a situation where you need more gain you might not.

[F.O.Bean]

I would at the very least get a preamp. You can always run it down to 0 if you have enough gain

[acidjack]

I would at the very least get a preamp. You can always run it down to 0 if you have enough gain

With small stealth mics?  For taping loud shows?  Why?

[F.O.Bean]

Well, I shouldve rephrased that. I meant if youre recording quiet music. A Battery Box has served me well w/ my CA14 mics. I just got a CA 9100 for those quiet shows

[adrianf74]

Well, I shouldve rephrased that. I meant if youre recording quiet music. A Battery Box has served me well w/ my CA14 mics. I just got a CA 9100 for those quiet shows

+1.  More often than not (especially at club shows), the sound levels are more than adequate to use just a battery box.  At the same time, it's always nice to have that option of giving the mics some more juice if it isn't as loud as you think it was going to be.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

It comes down to: how often is the OP recording "quiet shows" and does it justify the cash outlay for a mic pre?  I can't speak for everyone and every situation, but I've found that when stealth recording quiet shows, location in the venue is much more important than additional gain from a preamp.  And if you're running 24-bit you have the extra room for raising levels in post without introducing more noise.  For me, my recorder and a battery box has provided plenty of gain for the quiet gigs I've recorded; I haven't found the need to invest in a pre for my stealth rig.  YMMV.

[beatkilla]

I have been recording shows since 1986 and i have not yet run into any situation where i would have needed a pre. Just what are you guys taping that is so quiet?

[Belexes]

I have taped amplified shows where I maxed out the gain on my pre as well as the the deck and have not achieved levels over -12 dB.  I ran 24 bit and was able to boost in post, but I do appreciate a pre-amp for those quiet shows.

*Need*, perhaps not, but it is certainly nice to have in the taping bag when its use may be benefitial. 

[achalsey]

I have taped amplified shows where I maxed out the gain on my pre as well as the the deck and have not achieved levels over -12 dB.

I have as well.  When I first started (using the CA-14 > 9100 > H120) I thought there was something wrong with pre.  I recorded a few normally loud shows and had the gain maxed on the 9100 and still added some on the H120 to get levels around -6 dB.

I don't stealth so size isn't an issue (even though its only the 9100) but on many occasions it has been necessary even at decently loud shows.