Topic: Mic Placement USE CASE: Where Would You Place Your Mics in this Example?

[BayTaynt3d]

Alright, this post/request is drawn from a real-world experience I had last Sunday taping a local SF Jazz band. The setting was a decent-sized coffee shop (much bigger than your typical coffee house because it is also an art gallery too). I'm feeling better every day with my gear and my mic setups (NOS/DIN/ORTF/AB), but I still feel very challenged with the PLACEMENT of the mics in the room. So, I was hoping to spell out the scenario I was in last Sunday via a "USE CASE" approach complete with a diagram of the band's layout, and then get your feedback about where you would have placed YOUR mics if you were me last Sunday.

You can reference the attached image for the layout, but I'll describe it a bit in words here too. The drummer was off to the left side facing to the right. The bassist and the keyboardist were in the back each running into seperate small amps sitting on the floor pointing mostly forward. The trumpet player was in the center facing forward with no amp at all, and the sax player was to his right facing forward and running his sax through the house PA. The sax player said he amped into the PA to get just a little more volume (nothing too much) into the mix. The vocal mic was running through the PA too, but that was only for talking between songs, this was strictly an instrumental affair, so the mic through the PA was irrelevant. The PA monitors were about 4' off the floor and pointing in different directions (see gif image). Also, the band plays in and is tucked into the corner of the space, but instead of facing diagonally out into the middle of the huge square room, they instead point straight-ahead into the main seating area.

Part of the problem with the setup in the space itself -- it was kind of schitzophrenic (sp?) in that the band's space wanted to face toward the main seating area (majority, but not all, of seats) but at the same time wanted to project out a little into the rest of the space where the galleries were and where there was some seating too. If you ask me, the setup didn't really work in either respect, I think it might have better to either project completely and symetrically into the ENTIRE space OR to focus solely straight-ahead at the majority seating. Anyway, none of that matters because it was what it was.

So, if you could place your mics anywhere in this setup...

Where would you have setup your stand? (What angle toward band and how far back?)
How high up would you run the mics?
What stereo config would you run?

P.S. Here is a link to some photos in their website gallery, which will give you a feel for the space a little bit. The band always plays in one of the corners of the huge square space:
http://www.thecanvasgallery.com/eventPhotos.html

[BayTaynt3d]

BTW, I ended up running (no sound checks) about 10-12' back 6 'o clock to the sax player at about 5' with the mics. I struggled with how far back to run because I wanted to get the PA in the mix, but the PA was positioned in a funky asymetrical way, plus only the sax was going through the PA. I also struggled with how high to place the mics becuase two amps were resting on the floor. My placement ended up sounding a bit distant, it came out pretty good, but just a tad distant and the seperation was iffy (I ran DIN). In retrospect, I wish I was closer and more to the right (like Moke said angle-wise, but maybe closer). I'm not sure I needed to worry about the PA either, because if I got closer, I'd probably have picked up the sax (from the sax itself instead of the PA), plus if I did move in, even if I only picked up one side of the PA, maybe that sould have actually been nicer from a stereo seperation standpoint because now the sax sounds kind of mono because I picked it up off both L and R sides of the PA. Not sure though...

[charles]

Got omni caps?

[BayTaynt3d]

Got omni caps?

I have C4s, so yup, I have omni caps and a J-Disc too! I usually don't run them in a bar setting though, only in environments that are pretty quiet. But that said, I contemplated using them for this, but didn't. Where are you going with the omnis idea?

[charles]

I've run 10' split omnis about 2' from the stage in a simliar setup with great results.

[NJFunk]

If it's just sax in the PA and no vocals, I'd set up DINA right in front of the sax player about 4' up.  For instrumentalists only, this will give you a great stereo field, but if there were also vocals in the PA, the mix would be very light on vocals.

[Krispy D]

draw a line between your drummer and sax player about 15' out and at about 6' high ortf.  thats my best guess given the info at hand.  the sax only pa screws everything up imho.  makes it hard to find good stereo position while keeping levels somewhere near normal.

tough one +T

[souper]

I would try omnis closer to the stage as well, but I'm sure many options could work well.

[BayTaynt3d]

Another question regarding ORTF...

I'm somewhat of a newb, but over the past couple of months I recorded a bunch of gigs in a bunch of different settings, and I've experimented with AB omni's, and DIN and NOS cards thus far. To be honest, OTRF kind of scares me because of how huge the angle is between the mics. I still have never run ORTF, and I'm not sure when ORTF would be a good choice or not over something like NOS/DIN/DINA. I almost tried it for this scenario, but I'm too chicken to fuck up my recording now that I've been getting better at getting decent pulls using DIN/NOS (and if it is a quiet, recital-like environment, running AB or JDisc omnis).

Any tips or things some of you guys could share about when ORTF may be the way to go or not (I'm using C4's BTW)...

Thanks!

[jeromejello]

call me crazy, but i have only run ortf.  with my at's and the maiden voyage of the akg's.  i absolutely love the sound in a ortf set up.  one day i will experiment with other positions.... but right now i am digging the ortf

[BayTaynt3d]

I'm going to be taping this band again in the same venue with the same setup. However, the venue's PA got stolen, so I won't have to worry about the PA this time. I've got an idea that might be stupid, so I'm looking for some feedback before I shoot myself in the foot...

I was contemplating using split omnis in a kind of funky way. I'd put one in the back in front of the bass and keyboard amps, and I'd put the other in the front of the two brass performers. My thought is I'd get a decent stereo image, but it just wouldn't reflect the image from the audience's point of view. What I like about it was that my last recording was way heavy on the brass and light on the keys and bass. This might help me balance it out more. Plus, it'll center the drums a bit more on both channels instead of being on the left like last time. I can think of a few downsides though. For starters, the audience is going to sound like it is all left channel (brass mic). Second, the bass/keys mic will be behind the brass, so maybe phase issues? Third, the brass mic will pick up both the brass AND the keys/bass behind it. So, not sure if this is such a wise idea. Thought?

Another approach would be to run like I did last time, but closer. I think I can get about 3-4' closer than I did last time. Also, I ran DIN cards last time, and maybe I'd run X-Y cards this time in the hopes of bringing the wetness of the room verb down a bit. But I'm not sure if X-Y would even help with that -- I don't have enough experience. I know X-Y can help tame the bass a bit compared to DIN or NOS, but can it also help with a lot of big-space verb too?

Finally, I can't post any samples from my first attempt, but if you PM me to help, I'll get you a sample from the first time around. Maybe that'll help someone give me some advice for my second crack at this gig. BTW, I actually like my first tape, but I'm just trying to improve it a bit.

-- Thanks, Taint