Topic: Onstage mic placement for Onstage/SBD Matrix...

[Patrick]

Has anyone tried adding reverb the soundboard source.

I typically record SBD + AUD FOB, maybe 10-20' from the stage.

I find if I just add the SBD + AUD (shifting the SBD over to line up), the image sounds wacky.  Like I "pasted" the board in there.  Adding reverb makes it sound more natural, or at least consistent.

I'll have to try the trick of delaying the SBD a bit more than the AUD though.  That sounds cool.

  Richard

I've tried adding reverb to the SBD, but I wasn't too happy with the results, to be honest.  YMMV, though.

Lord knows that most FOH engineers over-do the reverb to begin with, no use adding more in post. 

[BayTaynt3d]

A final trick that I have learned to improve the image is to delay the SBD feed a little.  Even with a stage recording, there is a little delay between the PA and mic feeds.  The delay is close to 1 ms/ft.  If the stage amps are about 6 or 7 ft from the mics, then the delay is about 7 ms.  If you just mix this, the human ear cannot detect that small of a delay and you will not hear any echo or any other funny artifact from the delay.  But another thing to remember is that if you hear the same sound from two different sources, your ear determines the direction of the sound from the first source it hears.  This phenomenon is true for very, very small delays and is the same principle that sound engineers use for Braodway plays (to make sure that your ear determines that an actor's voice on stage sounds like it is coming from on stage and not from the reinforcement speakers all over the theater...).  In this setting, if you delay the SBD feed by a little more than the actual delay between the SBD and mic feeds, then your ear will pick up the stereo image of the mic feed much better.  If you don't delay the SBD feed, then the SBD is "in front" of the mic feed and the recording will sound more "mono-ized".

That is just genius. Thanks for spelling that out a little. I've tried to make mono recordings sound more stereo-ish by delaying one channel a little, and I was quite amazed that at a certain point (and not even that much, we're talking millisecs here), the sound sounds like it is coming from 100% from one side despite the fact that a full-volume signal is STILL coming out of the other speaker (or headphone). It's actually pretty uncanny with headphones on. You would share on your life that absolutely nothing is coming out of the one ear, but if you take the other side off of your ear, you can then easily tell that the other ear was actually getting a full volume signal. So, I can totally imagine this phenomenon being carried into the scenario you describe above...

[rokpunk]

Has anyone tried adding reverb the soundboard source.

that sounds like a good way to muddy up a perfectly fine SBD!
1 ms/ft delay between the sbd source and the mics is about right...but reverb is just gonna do weird things to the bass and drums, and the end result will sound somewhat like mud. but ymmv.

[pilgrims622]

Just curious, has anyone with a 4 track recorder tried their hand at an onstage M/S with SBD mix?  I'm using a UA-5 so my stage/board matrixes have to be mixed down on the fly.  As a result I've never tried it with M/S.  I have run just an M/S pair onstage for some instrumental bands, and I've loved the ability to adjust the image in post.  It seems like it could be incredibly versatile to have that control to fine tune the mix with a SBD.  Of course it does mean more mixing.   

I have done a good bit of onstage m/s + sbd and have been pleased with the results...you should try it out sometime as Im sure you would love the end results too

[NJFunk]

I've been doing a lot of SBD/Onstage mic matrices lately. Anybody else out there doing anything like this?

I've tried quite a few different mic setups including cardioid, sub-cardioid, and split omnis. For the most part I've been OK with the results, but not thrilled. Then the other night the proverbial light clicked and I decided to run hypercards with the 80Hz bass rolloff.

Here's how I usually setup at the show...
First of all, I run mono files on the 744t for mixing in post. I run the mics onstage and then into the 32 channel in house stage to sbd xlr snake (usually channels 31/32). At the sbd end, I take the xlrs for 31/32 and plug them into the 744t (sometimes with an external pre in front) as well as a stereo feed from the sbd.

When matrixing in Wavelab...
I like to distribute the stereo soundboard recording equally to both channels, basically creating a mono recording. This is why I opted to go with the hypercards with bass rolloff. I started thinking that because I have a 'full' sounding soundboard recording, I just need something to open it up a bit.

It's getting kinda late right now, so I'll elaborate a bit later, but has anybody else tried this. I'm recording primarily electric/rock concerts, with vocals, sometimes with horns.

-b

I downloaded this and listened last night.  It sounds really great (especially after that static in the board clears up).  After listening, I can see why you went with the bass rolloff.  Those big ol' U89's are going to capture a ton of bass from right in front, and if you have bass in the board feed, then you won't need that much of it from the mics. 

I had never heard of that band before, either.  They're not totally my thing, but they're pretty good.  Anything with at least a little soul is OK with me.  I like the Rod Stewart cover.  That's one you don't hear much (outside of cheesy wedding bands I guess).