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Author Topic: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view  (Read 27274 times)

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Offline unidentified

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2024, 04:03:04 PM »
Thoughts on this?  I have not heard this in my recordings.

https://youtu.be/y3431uljZ2k?si=I7I7qhsKK7TUo49s


Offline voltronic

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2024, 08:18:27 PM »
Thoughts on this?  I have not heard this in my recordings.

https://youtu.be/y3431uljZ2k?si=I7I7qhsKK7TUo49s

Wow. There's more information in the comments, including how Sound Devices (mostly?) fixed this with a firmware update.

Now I'm going to have to dig into some of my F6 recordings and see if I can locate this issue.

What I don't understand is why the low-gain ADC is 30 dB noisier than the high-gain one. I would expect it to be the reverse.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 08:41:12 PM by voltronic »
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Offline carpa

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2024, 08:50:22 PM »
It's an unpleasant issue, indeed. Thing is, I am pretty sure that Zoom F serie recorders still have dual ADC working even in 24 bit mode, so no escape unless the manufacturer finds a solution via firmware ( if any solution is possible)

Offline Rairun

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2024, 09:34:35 PM »
Thoughts on this?  I have not heard this in my recordings.

https://youtu.be/y3431uljZ2k?si=I7I7qhsKK7TUo49s

Wow. There's more information in the comments, including how Sound Devices (mostly?) fixed this with a firmware update.

Now I'm going to have to dig into some of my F6 recordings and see if I can locate this issue.

What I don't understand is why the low-gain ADC is 30 dB noisier than the high-gain one. I would expect it to be the reverse.

From what I understood, the recorder engages the low-gain ADC when it detects a transient - and it does so before the signal gets strong enough that it has the chance to clip. This means that there's some amount of guessing involved, and it might engage the low-gain ADC for sudden sounds that end up not getting anywhere near clipping level. And it's precisely because it has engaged the low-gain ADC for a sound that was actually fairly quiet that the device needs to make up for it by amplifying the signal digitally, raising the noise floor of the recording. It isn't that the low-gain ADC is noisier than the high-gain one in absolute terms (you're right that this would make no sense): it's that the high-gain one has cleaner analogue gain than simply boosting the digital signal produced by the low-gain one by however much is necessary so that the levels remain consistent throughout the recording.

You might have noticed he was recording tiny sounds (they sounded like water dripping?), not a gunshot or a drum kit. I imagine that these artefacts wouldn't appear in a live music recording in any noticeable way.

Edit: actually, I paid a bit more attention this time, and I don't think it's supposed to detect transients? It just routes the signal based on the voltage the microphone produces. So the situations when the issue would happen are a little different, but the same principle still applies. Basically, say the high-gain ADC is a +30dB one. Any signal strong enough to clip with that amount of gain is automatically routed to the low-gain ADC. If it's a healthy signal, you won't hear any noise. But if it's JUST loud enough to cross the clipping threshold of the high-gain ADC (say, by 1dB), then clearly the low-gain ADC is going to need to be boosted digitally so that the levels are consistent with rest of the recording. You're not going to see an issue when the sound falls into the best operational range of each ADC. You get some noise when a sound is just loud enough that you can't use cleaner gain, but still quiet enough that the new noise floor is noticeable.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 10:00:11 PM by Rairun »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2024, 10:24:34 PM »
^ That explanation makes sense. I was thinking of the signal being amplified in the analog domain before it's converted, but that's not how these devices work. I should have realized that because I frequently correct other people on this assumption. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2024, 10:25:20 PM »
It's an unpleasant issue, indeed. Thing is, I am pretty sure that Zoom F serie recorders still have dual ADC working even in 24 bit mode, so no escape unless the manufacturer finds a solution via firmware ( if any solution is possible)

Yes, and that was discussed in the comments. One poster mentioned that it's the same deal for the Sony D100.
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Offline Derp1

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2024, 02:00:29 PM »
I noticed my Mike Stern F3 recording from last week was really noisy. Almost analog hiss sounding.
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Offline grawk

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #82 on: March 22, 2024, 02:02:03 PM »
I noticed my Mike Stern F3 recording from last week was really noisy. Almost analog hiss sounding.

Which mics were you using?  How loud was the show?
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Offline Derp1

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #83 on: March 22, 2024, 02:05:51 PM »
I noticed my Mike Stern F3 recording from last week was really noisy. Almost analog hiss sounding.

Which mics were you using?  How loud was the show?
Its this one. I figured it was because of the low pro situation. Mics have never made any similar hiss.
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Offline grawk

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #84 on: March 22, 2024, 02:07:23 PM »
It just shouldn't be anywhere near where it would be using the low gain adc if the show wasn't very loud.  And that band doesn't strike me as one that would be inordinately loud.
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Offline Derp1

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #85 on: March 22, 2024, 02:10:00 PM »
It just shouldn't be anywhere near where it would be using the low gain adc if the show wasn't very loud.  And that band doesn't strike me as one that would be inordinately loud.
Unfortunately the only reason I got it was to record  >:D these particular bands. Think Im going back to mk2e's>BB>A10
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Offline grawk

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #86 on: March 22, 2024, 02:38:46 PM »
is the hiss always there?  if you can isolate it, RX can remove it automatically
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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2024, 02:52:07 PM »
Just the quiet parts. It's not terrible, but I might try and fix it up.
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Offline unidentified

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2024, 03:15:43 PM »
That is strange. I love my F3s because the preamps are so darn quiet.

Offline voltronic

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Re: 32Bit Float recording - The Technical view
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2024, 03:31:02 PM »
is the hiss always there?  if you can isolate it, RX can remove it automatically

Watch the video. This is addressed. It's only around the louder transients.
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