Topic: newbee asking for recorder recommendation

[kuuan]

What an overwhelming site, a whole new world.

I am about to buy my first recorder and ask for your advice.

My use differs from most of you here as I will hardly will record loud concerts but mostly ‘ambient’ sound to be mixed with videos I take. This could be e.g birds singing in an otherwise quiet surroundings, if recording music it won’t be heavily amplified. I do my videos while travelling on the road for months at a stretch, therefore the recorder must be compact and easy to use.
Above all for it’s storage onboard and drag and drop functionality an H1xx is my favourite choice. With the iriver I’d not have to carry a stack of HiMDs or buy costly SDs if going the R-9 way as sometimes I may not have easy access to a computer to upload.
 
Recently I enquired at misticriver and minidisc.org forums and draw the conclusion that the preamp and ADC of the iriver might be slightly inferior to those of an HiMD. Some maintain that the difference is marginal, others advice to use the H1xx only with the optical in. However I was not planning to buy an ext. preamp and ADC. However if there is any  available which is small, light and not costly I’d consider. I’d not need phantom power as I’ll use an AT822, nor a batterie box which, if I understand correctly, is needed for loud sound source.

What is your take?

Which recorder would best meet my needs?

Or asking differently:

Is the difference of recording quality using mic-in between H1xx and an HiMD marginal and does not have relevance to me, even if trying to record ‘ambient’ sound in quiet surroundings?
Or, if not wanting to buy any external equipment, should I better get an HiMD?
Or is there any small, external preamp+ADC I could use with my AT822 to go into the H1xx?

( someone may wonder why I make the choice so difficult, well, I am travelling right now, can't just buy the other as well or exchange if getting the wrong thing)

[Brian Skalinder]

<1>  Is the AT822 the only piece of audio recording gear you own currently?  Just trying to get a lay of the land before thinking about options and recommendations.

<2>  What's your total budget for everything, whether it be recorder, preamp, etc.?  Reason I ask is it may be necessary to use an external preamp if you're recording very quiet ambient sounds.

<3>  Do you have access to power (electricity) for charging batteries, or do you need a recorder that takes commonly available batteries (like AA cells)?  This, of course, may impact recommendations.

<4>  I take it you plan to sync the audio with the video in post-production?

[svenkid]

speaking of ambient noise recordings, Id love to set up my u89s by a river for a few hours...

[balou2]

speaking of ambient noise recordings, Id love to set up my u89s by a river for a few hours...

I'd love to set up your u89's by a river too. 

sorry...


Is size a consideration?  You mention portable,  but are you looking for an "iRiver-type-size" or can you do bigger?

[kuuan]

<1>  Is the AT822 the only piece of audio recording gear you own currently?  Just trying to get a lay of the land before thinking about options and recommendations.

<2>  What's your total budget for everything, whether it be recorder, preamp, etc.?  Reason I ask is it may be necessary to use an external preamp if you're recording very quiet ambient sounds.

<3>  Do you have access to power (electricity) for charging batteries, or do you need a recorder that takes commonly available batteries (like AA cells)?  This, of course, may impact recommendations.

<4>  I take it you plan to sync the audio with the video in post-production?

ad<1> besides the AT822 I have socalled 'iriver Giant Squid mono omnis', two of them, recording to an iFP-799 , and a socalled VW-VMS2 Panasonic camcorder Mic. The AT822 usually records my Panasonic GS400 camcorder ( which does 16 bit recordings with level adjustments ) Very likely I will try to sell the Pana mic on ebay and I was thinking to get a socalled 'Videomic', which is a mono shotgun..but could get some other mics you recommend instead in case I reallly get into audio taping.

ad<2> I was thinking that 150 to 250 USD would be enough, but I am willing to spend a bit more...let's say 300 to 350 USD. Eventually, very likely soon, it will be more $$$ again anyway.., so, well, it could be more if I feel happy with what I get! Actually if you recommend an external preamp, on 'yard sale' there is a AD-20 with a Phantom, powering box thrown in which I was eyeing.. for 190, and an H1xx I could get for about 150 here in Japan..that could make a perfect match!

ad<3> usually  I'd have access to power, still AA or AAA certainly would be of advantage if e.g. while in south India the Akku dies with no substitute available.

ad<4> yes, I do!

it is very important that all together weighs little and takes little space, and looks nothing special or expensive....

WARNING:
bla.. bla.. follows from here on:
why should it rather look crapy?...well, that needs a long explanation and for the reason why I take long time to decide: I am in Japan now and will return to my home country Austria during october. I do carry a videocamera, adapter lenses, videolight, filters, tripod, monopod, the mics, the iFP-799 +++, everything I bought during the last 2 years somewhere in Asia, cost me abt. 2000 Euro what would have cost me 4000+ back in Europe, all never has been imported in Austria. Austrian customs officials are harsh, but to import all my stuff officially would be very difficult: many bills in japanese language, confusing, including other items bought for my friend, and a percentage bonus system on every item bought which are discounts for next buy, those are used again, some items bought via internet auction, some second hand without any proper bill,...wha.. I don't even want to think of all the troubles I had to go through if I wanted to declare everything officially. Less I want to imagine what would happen if I did not declare but they find the stuff. If it was not for this problem I'd go ahead and buy e.g. an RH10 for 150 USD and another H120 for the same prize, play with them, decide which one to keep and sell the other. Here in Japan I cannnot sell via internet though, only buy. Short, I don't want carry many more items I will have bought outside when entering Austria....since I will walk by the customs..
Stuff buying on ebay in the US is a problem too: for something bought  for 100USD one could end up paying 40USD for shipping and another 70!USD  or so for costums...

that AD-20 though...he says shipping included, well, to Austria he would charge me...but he'd have to put a VERY low price to pass austrian customs cheaply...

how big and heavy is the AD-20? well, better I wait what you recommend!

thank's so much for your help!

[F.O.Bean]

722

[kuuan]

722

I was afraid that '722' could be a coded forum language saying: 'this guy is talking way too much'

but no: just had a look at sound devices! WOW! MY recorder...in another 10 years?

[run_run_run]

If a JB3 is not to big, there is one in lawnsale for 100.

[Brian Skalinder]

ad<1> besides the AT822 I have socalled 'iriver Giant Squid mono omnis', two of them, recording to an iFP-799 , and a socalled VW-VMS2 Panasonic camcorder Mic. The AT822 usually records my Panasonic GS400 camcorder ( which does 16 bit recordings with level adjustments ) Very likely I will try to sell the Pana mic on ebay and I was thinking to get a socalled 'Videomic', which is a mono shotgun..but could get some other mics you recommend instead in case I reallly get into audio taping.

Of course, which mics you ultimately use will depend on which sound you prefer.  The camera-mounted mono shotgun mic will produce a very narrow, but more direct, sound.  IMO, not natural at all.  The omnis will pick up anything and everything, which in some cases may prove limiting.  I think the AT822 is the best compromise - some directionality, without killing the naturalness of the sound.

ad<2> I was thinking that 150 to 250 USD would be enough, but I am willing to spend a bit more...let's say 300 to 350 USD. Eventually, very likely soon, it will be more $$$ again anyway.., so, well, it could be more if I feel happy with what I get! Actually if you recommend an external preamp, on 'yard sale' there is a AD-20 with a Phantom, powering box thrown in which I was eyeing.. for 190, and an H1xx I could get for about 150 here in Japan..that could make a perfect match!

My immediate thought on seeing your post was...AT822 (powered internally) > Denecke AD-20 > iRiver H1xx via the optical input.  The AT822 is powered with an internal battery and does not accept external power, so you definitely do not need the phantom power box.

ad<3> usually  I'd have access to power, still AA or AAA certainly would be of advantage if e.g. while in south India the Akku dies with no substitute available.

The AD-20 runs on standard 9v batteries, which should prove easy to find.

it is very important that all together weighs little and takes little space, and looks nothing special or expensive....

IMO, the AD-20 and H1xx provides the single best option for price / performance / size / weight.  Other options may sound marginally better, but at a price - $$, size, weight, etc.

that AD-20 though...he says shipping included, well, to Austria he would charge me...but he'd have to put a VERY low price to pass austrian customs cheaply...

Yeah, it's common to include shipping on deliveries within the continental US, but charge for international shipping.  And you've hit on one of the challenges of buying abroad - getting hammered via customs.  If declaring a low value to clear customs cheaply, both buyer and seller incur additional risk.  For example, what happens if the shipment's lost or damaged?  The shipping insurance will not cover the cost of the gear.  Some sellers/buyers are willing to accept the risk, others not.

how big and heavy is the AD-20? well, better I wait what you recommend!

That is what I recommend.  AT822 > AD-20 > H1xx will provide -very- nice recordings.  And for ambient recordings, I really think you need a preamp for enough gain to get higher above the noise floor.  The AD-20 is about as small/light as you'll find in a preamp / AD combo with good sound.  Specs here.  The AT822 outputs a stereo signal via an XLR-male connector, and the AD-20s inputs are 2 x mono XLR-female connectors.  So the only additional piece you'd need is a stereo XLR-female > 2 x mono XLR-male adapter.  Perhaps others will chime in with their thoughts. 

[kuuan]

ad<1> besides the AT822 I have socalled 'iriver Giant Squid mono omnis', two of them, recording to an iFP-799 , and a socalled VW-VMS2 Panasonic camcorder Mic. The AT822 usually records my Panasonic GS400 camcorder ( which does 16 bit recordings with level adjustments ) Very likely I will try to sell the Pana mic on ebay and I was thinking to get a socalled 'Videomic', which is a mono shotgun..but could get some other mics you recommend instead in case I reallly get into audio taping.

Of course, which mics you ultimately use will depend on which sound you prefer.  The camera-mounted mono shotgun mic will produce a very narrow, but more direct, sound.  IMO, not natural at all.  The omnis will pick up anything and everything, which in some cases may prove limiting.  I think the AT822 is the best compromise - some directionality, without killing the naturalness of the sound.

good to know that I made a good choice with the AT822! (bought it last week only )

ad<2> I was thinking that 150 to 250 USD would be enough, but I am willing to spend a bit more...let's say 300 to 350 USD. Eventually, very likely soon, it will be more $$$ again anyway.., so, well, it could be more if I feel happy with what I get! Actually if you recommend an external preamp, on 'yard sale' there is a AD-20 with a Phantom, powering box thrown in which I was eyeing.. for 190, and an H1xx I could get for about 150 here in Japan..that could make a perfect match!

My immediate thought on seeing your post was...AT822 (powered internally) > Denecke AD-20 > iRiver H1xx via the optical input.  The AT822 is powered with an internal battery and does not accept external power, so you definitely do not need the phantom power box.!

hmm. thought that this could be a good option, but the AD-20 is not that small and weighs a bit, isn't it?

ad<3> usually  I'd have access to power, still AA or AAA certainly would be of advantage if e.g. while in south India the Akku dies with no substitute available.

The AD-20 runs on standard 9v batteries, which should prove easy to find.

yes!

it is very important that all together weighs little and takes little space, and looks nothing special or expensive....

IMO, the AD-20 and H1xx provides the single best option for price / performance / size / weight.  Other options may sound marginally better, but at a price - $$, size, weight, etc.

I might decide to buy a notebook which I will carry so I can do some editing while on the road. Would the fact that I carry a computer change your choice? In the specs of the AD-20 I even read that it also could be used to directly record to a computer. I don't understand which specs. the notebook would require for that though.

that AD-20 though...he says shipping included, well, to Austria he would charge me...but he'd have to put a VERY low price to pass austrian customs cheaply...

Yeah, it's common to include shipping on deliveries within the continental US, but charge for international shipping.  And you've hit on one of the challenges of buying abroad - getting hammered via customs.  If declaring a low value to clear customs cheaply, both buyer and seller incur additional risk.  For example, what happens if the shipment's lost or damaged?  The shipping insurance will not cover the cost of the gear.  Some sellers/buyers are willing to accept the risk, others not.

PM'd to the seller, there could be some solution...

how big and heavy is the AD-20? well, better I wait what you recommend!

That is what I recommend.  AT822 > AD-20 > H1xx will provide -very- nice recordings.  And for ambient recordings, I really think you need a preamp for enough gain to get higher above the noise floor.  The AD-20 is about as small/light as you'll find in a preamp / AD combo with good sound.  Specs here.  The AT822 outputs a stereo signal via an XLR-male connector, and the AD-20s inputs are 2 x mono XLR-female connectors.  So the only additional piece you'd need is a stereo XLR-female > 2 x mono XLR-male adapter.  Perhaps others will chime in with their thoughts.

Do you think that the H1xx AD-20 package certainly is superior to plugging the AT822 directly into an HiMD or into a Roland R-9?

HiMD: The HiMD's preamp seems to be better as many suspected: http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/himdmyths_meas.html resp. http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/index.html
R-9: The AT822 is the only quality mic I have so far. If recording with both the viceocam and the audio recorder at the same time the built-in mics  of the Roland- if their quality is decent -  could be of advantage.
If I'd  carry a notebook I'd not have to carry a stack of MDs or costly SD cards neither. 

[Brian Skalinder]

hmm. thought that this could be a good option, but the AD-20 is not that small and weighs a bit, isn't it?

The AD-20 is very small, as far as preamps and analog-to-digital converters go.  The only way you'll get smaller is by running the AT822 directly into a recorder and using its internal preamp and ADC.  I think the problem you'll run across with AT822 > recorder is that the recorder will not provide sufficient clean gain for ambient sound recording.  For LOUD concerts, maybe.  But doubtful for ambient sound recording.  I think either way, at a minimum you should use a preamp between the AT822 and the recorder.  The AD-20 provides the preamp, and also happens to handle the analog-to-digital conversion as well - all for a price below which you'd find another suitable preamp of similar quality, IMO.

I might decide to buy a notebook which I will carry so I can do some editing while on the road. Would the fact that I carry a computer change your choice? In the specs of the AD-20 I even read that it also could be used to directly record to a computer. I don't understand which specs. the notebook would require for that though.

Nah, wouldn't change my recommendation.  You could record straight to computer, but that's not exactly a compact setup, and optimizing your PC for recording takes some tech knowledge.  Battery life is also an issue - laptops are BIG battery hogs.

Do you think that the H1xx AD-20 package certainly is superior to plugging the AT822 directly into an HiMD or into a Roland R-9?

For recording very loud environments, AT822 > R09 may prove better.  I've not done a direct comparison, but I suspect that given the relatively high gain you'll want for recording fairly quiet ambient sounds, the AD-20s the way to go.  The H1xx, Hi-MD, and R09 recorders all provide some gain, but I doubt sufficient or clean enough gain.

HiMD: The HiMD's preamp seems to be better as many suspected: http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/himdmyths_meas.html resp. http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/index.html

IMO, that's one of the benefits of the AD-20:  you don't have to rely on a preamp built into the recorder.

If I'd  carry a notebook I'd not have to carry a stack of MDs or costly SD cards neither.

One of the good reasons to go with the H1xx - no media.  And the AD-20 should provide better gain and ADC relative to the H1xx (or MD, for that matter).

[tscales]

wow.

bravo to the excellent information excahange.  viva los tapersection

[petur]

if you go the iriver h1x0 route, don't forget to put rockbox on it
(see my sig)

[kuuan]

thank you very much Brian for all your input.
and there seems nobody around who disagrees with your recommendation.

The higher gain of an AD-20 will be of advantage and I shall feel like a half pro  . and I like iriver.

a few rather nick-pick questions:

I think the problem you'll run across with AT822 > recorder is that the recorder will not provide sufficient clean gain for ambient sound recording.  For LOUD concerts, maybe.  But doubtful for ambient sound recording.  I think either way, at a minimum you should use a preamp between the AT822 and the recorder.

would that mean that another mic -  expensive one? - could make the preamp obsolete?

Nah, wouldn't change my recommendation.  You could record straight to computer, but that's not exactly a compact setup, and optimizing your PC for recording takes some tech knowledge.  Battery life is also an issue - laptops are BIG battery hogs.

OK, I forget about the notebook idea...

For recording very loud environments, AT822 > R09 may prove better

would I always want to run AT822<AD-20<H1xx or could at some situations like loud sound AT822<H1xx be even better. or at least sufficient?

One of the good reasons to go with the H1xx - no media.

I always liked the HD of the H1xx. I also like the active and productive Rockbox community and ongoing development...
I dislike having to carry extra media and having to use extra soft for filetransfer. To be fair though an H1xx+AD-20 does make a much bigger bulk + weight than an HiMD only.

When I started to enquire the iriver H1xx was my favourite, but I must say the more I enquired the more the HiMDs conquered my heart as well. They seem to be the best quality low cost recorders if not using any external preamp/ADC.

Two days ago I was outbidded by 5 USD only for a RH10 and it sold cheaply for only 160 USD incl. extra charger and Sony XL81 earpuds! For now I seem to have to run out of luck on the iriver- auction front though: last week a H120 got sold for around 170 USD here, today's is up to 240 USD 5 hours before the auction ends....
a H140 is waiting in 3 days, now at 135 USD
Besides the HD, is there any other difference between the H120 and the H140? I remember having read that the H120 does take, as modification, max. a 40GB, but the H140, because double platter, max. a 80GB HD. How about mod. battery? Space for the same or more for a better one in the H140?
later edit: now the curiosity of a H100 with a 10GB HD showed up. Does this model have any drawback, esp. how much cost to upgrade it's HD? ( well, I should enquire at misticriver )

and Petur certainly I'd rockbox it. that is, if the optical in on Rockbox is finally working, but it is, isn't it?
Thank you very much for your efforts on Rockbox! Very likely I will need your help once I install it.

there is another thread of somebody enquiering about the connectors for the AT822 to the AD-20 needed: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67337.0

wondering how I will get those...

[Brian Skalinder]

would that mean that another mic -  expensive one? - could make the preamp obsolete?

I don't think so, no.

would I always want to run AT822<AD-20<H1xx or could at some situations like loud sound AT822<H1xx be even better. or at least sufficient?

I don't think it would be better.  Perhaps sufficient - depends on your tolerance for noise (e.g. hiss) in your recordings.  The AD-20 adds a minimum of +17 dB of gain, i.e. there's no way to add -less- than + 17 dB of gain.  So the only situation in which you may want to run AT822 > H1xx is if the sound source is SO LOUD that either the mic signal + 17 dB of gain AD-20 provides too much gain and causes the ADC to clip, or the mic overloads the AD-20s analog inputs (in which case it may also overload the H1xx analog inputs).

To be fair though an H1xx+AD-20 does make a much bigger bulk + weight than an HiMD only.

Not when you take into account the media, I don't think.

They seem to be the best quality low cost recorders if not using any external preamp/ADC.

That may very well be the case, and wouldn't surprise me - I get the sense that MDs were designed as recording devices, whereas the JB3 and H1xx were designed, first and foremost, as playback devices that also happen to record.

For now I seem to have to run out of luck on the iriver- auction front though

More will pop up.  I guess it depends on how long you're able to wait before picking one up.

Besides the HD, is there any other difference between the H120 and the H140? I remember having read that the H120 does take, as modification, max. a 40GB, but the H140, because double platter, max. a 80GB HD. How about mod. battery? Space for the same or more for a better one in the H140?
later edit: now the curiosity of a H110 with a 10GB HD showed up. Does this model have any drawback, esp. how much cost to upgrade it's HD? ( well, I should enquire at misticriver )

Sorry, I'm no help here.

there is another thread of somebody enquiering about the connectors for the AT822 to the AD-20 needed: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67337.0

From the AT822 specs, it looks like it comes with two cables:  <1> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced stereo 3.5mm male mini, and <2> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini.  If it were me, I'd make a custom cable, or have one made:  unbalanced stereo XLR-female > 2 x balanced XLR-male.  I believe options 13 or 17 from this PDF would do the trick.  Those options both deal with different connectors (1/4" and RCA, respectively) on the unbalanced end, but the theory's the same.  If you're not comfortable making one of these cables, you should be able to find someone on TS to make one for you, or find a local electronics shop that will make one for you.

[kuuan]

there is another thread of somebody enquiering about the connectors for the AT822 to the AD-20 needed: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67337.0

From the AT822 specs, it looks like it comes with two cables:  <1> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced stereo 3.5mm male mini, and <2> unbalanced stereo XLR-female > unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini.  If it were me, I'd make a custom cable, or have one made:  unbalanced stereo XLR-female > 2 x balanced XLR-male.  I believe options 13 or 17 from this PDF would do the trick.  Those options both deal with different connectors (1/4" and RCA, respectively) on the unbalanced end, but the theory's the same.  If you're not comfortable making one of these cables, you should be able to find someone on TS to make one for you, or find a local electronics shop that will make one for you.

...Which cable do I need to connect the AD-20 to the Iriver? Or should that come with the AD-20?

The <1> cable you mention is very short ( 50 cm, I guess designed when used shockmounted on a cam )
The <2> cable is much longer ( 3m ) which could be more useful cable when recording to the iriver.
Do you second that? So I'd need unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini > unbalanced XLR-male.
However that longer cable also includes two adapters to be srewed on to 3,5mm jacks to make 2 unbalanced 1/4 inch ( 6,3mm ) jacks
Therefore I also could use ( even better ? ): unbalanced 2 x mono 1/4 inch male < 2 x balanced XLR-male
Could that even be standard and be found 'readymade'?

[Brian Skalinder]

...Which cable do I need to connect the AD-20 to the Iriver? Or should that come with the AD-20?

Sorry, I didn't mention that one.  You'll want to use the optical output of the AD-20, and the optical input of the H1xx.  I believe both use optical mini connectors.  I'd get a cable with right-angle mini optical connectors on both ends, like this one.

The <2> cable is much longer ( 3m ) which could be more useful cable when recording to the iriver.
Do you second that? So I'd need unbalanced 2 x mono 3.5mm male mini > unbalanced XLR-male.
However that longer cable actually terminates in 2 unbalanced 1/4 inch ( 6,3mm ) jacks + adapters that can be screwed to make them into 3,5mm jacks.

I may have mislead you with my talk of using adapters to connect unbalanced and balanced gear.  I know you can connect balanced gear to unbalanced gear, but going the other way - unbalanced to balanced, as in your case - may be different.  In digging a bit further, I think you may actually want a passive dual transformer/isolater box rather than just adapters.  Something like the ART DTI.  Though not terribly large, smaller options may exist - I'm not sure.  I'm stretching my knowledge here, as I've never really had to learn first-hand about connecting balanced and unbalanced gear before.  I'd recommend posting a new thread in the Ask The Tapers forum asking how to connect your unbalanced mic (AT822) to your balanced preamp (AD-20) - the new thread may draw additional input from fellow TSers with a broader knowledge and experience base (than me) on this specific issue.

The Good News:  all that's left is figuring out how to connect the AT822 to the AD-20 and...you're all set! 

[kuuan]

......The Good News:  all that's left is figuring out how to connect the AT822 to the AD-20 and...you're all set! 

thank you again.
...seems like an iriver and AD-20 and all connections are coming around...

[kuuan]

As you suggesterd, Brian, I posted the question if I can use 2 simple plug adapters or if I needed the transformer/isolator box to connect the AT822 to the AD-20 at the 'Ask the tapers Forum'

Brian, from the very start you said that I would need a preamp to add sufficient gain for ambience recording and therefore recommended the iriver+AD-20 combination. As it is the smallest preamp + recorder combination I was sure to go this way even though I did feel that the gear becomes more bulky then I was hoping. Even though we don't know yet, but if I also needed that extra box it even would become bulkier again..

Therefore please let me ask once more:
Is there a chance that the R-09's internal preamp would be strong enough, and that with the R-09 I would not have to use an external preamp?

As mentioned earlier I may want to record audio while I use the AT822 connected to my cam so eventually I want more mics with different characterisics as the AT822:
Searching the forums my attention got drawn to matched pairs of C4s, or AKG c1000, or Octava MK-012, or AT853 which all are very appealing also because of their interchangeable capsules ( - AT853 ). However they all use phantom power which is a clear drawback since ultra portability is of outmost importance to me.

My question therefore is:

• Do all 'better' mics need phantom power? Or is it required above all if recording from loud sound sources? - besides having the advantage of ballanced cables, but as they and their connectors are heavy I wonder if I can avoid them
• Are there pairs of mics of similar sound quality as the ones mentioned above which do without phantom power?
• If so, are there any which also have interchangeable omni/cardioid capsules?
• Does phantom power add gain and, if not using phantom power I'd need a preamp for sure, but if I used mics with phantom power I e.g. could use them with the R-09 without needing a preamp?

thank's for any input and clarification.

[SunWizard]

I have the R-09 and use it with the AT853s most of the time.  The AT853s I have - the SP CMC-4 don't need the usual phantom power which is 48v, they work best off of a 9v battery box which is very small.  And with that combo the R-09 pre is probably enough gain for nature sounds.  How quiet of nature sounds are you interested in?  The R-09 pre and A/D sounds very good, far better than my iRiver HP120 or JB3.  It may be good enough for you.  I could go outside and record some birds or creek, etc. for you and put a sample up here. 

I also use the AT853 direct into my R-09 often without the battery box for acoustic music, using the plug power provided by the R-09 which is 3.3v and it sounds great, see my samples of that in a post a few days ago.  From my tests of acoustic sources with medium volume, they sound about the same as with the 9v power.  I go this route when I am in primitive conditions (camping, backpacking everything in) and don't want the extra battery and cable to deal with.  But for quiet nature sounds or loud sources the battery box is needed.

[SunWizard]

Just to be clear, I use the SP-SB6 battery box with bass rolloff, and it has no pre, I am using only the pre in the R-09.  Hooking the AT-853 up to the 9v battery makes the mics more sensitive so you use less gain on the R-09 pre, compared to the 3.3v plug power option.  And the pre on the R-09 is surprisingly clean.

[kuuan]

I have the R-09 and use it with the AT853s most of the time.  The AT853s I have - the SP CMC-4 don't need the usual phantom power which is 48v, they work best off of a 9v battery box which is very small.  And with that combo the R-09 pre is probably enough gain for nature sounds.  How quiet of nature sounds are you interested in?  The R-09 pre and A/D sounds very good, far better than my iRiver HP120 or JB3.  It may be good enough for you.  I could go outside and record some birds or creek, etc. for you and put a sample up here. 

I also use the AT853 direct into my R-09 often without the battery box for acoustic music, using the plug power provided by the R-09 which is 3.3v and it sounds great, see my samples of that in a post a few days ago.  From my tests of acoustic sources with medium volume, they sound about the same as with the 9v power.  I go this route when I am in primitive conditions (camping, backpacking everything in) and don't want the extra battery and cable to deal with.  But for quiet nature sounds or loud sources the battery box is needed.

WOW, thank you very much for this information.
Your set up, those small SP CMC-4 and the small battery box SP-SB6 are a very sweet combination and seem to be VERY much what I could use - specially with an R-09!

The R-09 does have a 'low cut' function and mic level control. Do I asume right that I would not need those function again on the battery box? If so, could one make such a 9 Volt power supply easily oneself? Is it wiring only or does it take more then that? I was thinking of a package of 4 rechargable AA 1,5 Volt batteries, for which cheap housings are readily available and which would be most convenient!

thank you for the offer to post sound samples. Unfortunately I have not been able to listen to any as here I am battling with a computer which seems to be running without any sound card..all I get is little, always interrupted sound altough the internet connection is fast enough.

I already did win a bid at an auction for an iriver H120. It has not arrived yet, and when looking into getting an AD-20 I got told 2 itimes independently that it does not sound all that good. I don't doubt Brian's suggestion to be 'tops', above all if recording very quiet ambience. But after all 'ultra' portability is more important to me than the ability to record at very quiet sound environs. Therefore the R-09 with mic and battery box you mention looks like a winner set up to me.
Never mind about the iriver. I will enjoy playing around with it, and maybe sell it later.

May I ask: How well do the R-09's onboard mics perform in your opinion? How do their recordings compare with the recordings made with your SP CMC-4?
And how again would the SP CMC-4 compare to your C4s?

- and does anybody out there have other similar mic suggestions - mics that do not need phantom power but are of high quality?

thank you

[SunWizard]

The R-09 does have a 'low cut' function and mic level control. Do I asume right that I would not need those function again on the battery box? If so, could one make such a 9 Volt power supply easily oneself? Is it wiring only or does it take more then that? I was thinking of a package of 4 rechargable AA 1,5 Volt batteries, for which cheap housings are readily available and which would be most convenient!

May I ask: How well do the R-09's onboard mics perform in your opinion? How do their recordings compare with the recordings made with your SP CMC-4?
And how again would the SP CMC-4 compare to your C4s?

The low cut function on the battery box is better than the one on the R-09 since the cut frequency can be adjusted to whatever you like.  I don't use it much though since I like the full response from the AT-853, they have good bass response.  The battery box cut is useful in a boomy room where you want to adjust the freq of cut.  The switches on the SP battery box have a drawback I don't like: when carrying it around in your pocket they can get accidentally bumped and changed, messing with the low end.  The SP battery box is nice since its tiny, almost the size of a 9v battery. 

You can make your own, I made a 3 wire battery box which is better than the SP box for loud sources, it still uses a 9v battery but is much bigger since I used a plastic project box.  Do a search on here for 3 wire battery box.

The onboard mics are decent, and better than any other built in mics I have heard.  Internal is omni, which is not as good as the cardioids in the AT853 in most situations.  They also have more self noise so wouldn't be as good for quiet nature sounds.  The AT853 are better sounding than the internals all around, more detailed sound.  I only use the internals if I am in a hurry to start recording and don't want to fool with getting the AT853 hooked up and aimed.  Which for nature sounds may be a factor.  Another thing I do is wear the R-09 on my belt, leaving the AT853s clipped to my glasses or clothes, and then I am ready to hit record whenever a good sound comes along.

The AT853 are almost as good as my C4s.  I would describe the C4s as a more detailed sound, and a little flatter frequency response, and better bass.  But the difference is slight and depends on what you are recording.  Less difference than going from the internal to the AT853s.

[SunWizard]

I just ran some test recordings of quiet birds in my yard.  You can get enough gain with either the internal mics and the AT853 (no battery box) if you set the switch on the back of the R-09 to High Gain.  One drawback to the internal mics is no windscreens which are often essential outdoors.  Maybe you could custom hack some out of a foam block of the right kind of foam.  You get a cleaner recording using the battery box since then you can set the gain much lower, with this setup there is plenty of gain for any quiet sounds.  Quiet birds and my footsteps could make the peak light come on with gain set to max.  The AT-853 are so hot with the battery box that for concerts you can run Line-in (no mic pre.)

[Brian Skalinder]

I just ran some test recordings of quiet birds in my yard.  You can get enough gain with either the internal mics and the AT853 (no battery box) if you set the switch on the back of the R-09 to High Gain.

Regarding internal gain on the a portable recorder like the R-09, Hxx, JB3, etc.  They may, in fact, have sufficient gain, but that's only part of the equation.  The bigger issue IMO is self-noise.  That's my rationale behind the AD-20 - high gain at low self-noise.  I could probably get sufficient gain out of my answering machine for recording my footsteps and birds in my backyard, but...what how much noise would there be relative to the footsteps and birds?  (I'm not saying the R-09 sounds like my answering machine, just an example.)

I don't know how the R-09 performs relative to the AD-20 regarding high-gain and self-noise.  But I think it's a factor worth considering, along with the other requirements:  budget, storage capacity, media, etc.

[SunWizard]

Regarding internal gain on the a portable recorder like the R-09, Hxx, JB3, etc.  They may, in fact, have sufficient gain, but that's only part of the equation.  The bigger issue IMO is self-noise.  That's my rationale behind the AD-20 - high gain at low self-noise.  I could probably get sufficient gain out of my answering machine for recording my footsteps and birds in my backyard, but...what how much noise would there be relative to the footsteps and birds?  (I'm not saying the R-09 sounds like my answering machine, just an example.)

I don't know how the R-09 performs relative to the AD-20 regarding high-gain and self-noise.  But I think it's a factor worth considering, along with the other requirements:  budget, storage capacity, media, etc.

I agree the self noise is a big factor for quiet sounds and thats why I posted earlier "The R-09 pre and A/D sounds very good, far better than my iRiver HP120 or JB3", and that its surprisingly clean.  I dont have a AD-20 to compare to but I can say the self noise is not bad on the R-09 with AT-853 even at max gain on the high setting.  Thats where I had it set for the sample recordings I posted a few days ago.  I have run some side by side comparisons of the R-09 with my UA-5.  I would compare the sound and self noise as similar to the stock UA-5 which most people agree is decent.  The self noise of the internal mics is worse, but I expect that compared to the AT853s. 

I think it should also help the sound that the R-09 is a 24 bit A/D compared to the 20 bit A/D in the AD-20.

[kuuan]

Regarding internal gain on the a portable recorder like the R-09, Hxx, JB3, etc.  They may, in fact, have sufficient gain, but that's only part of the equation.  The bigger issue IMO is self-noise.  That's my rationale behind the AD-20 - high gain at low self-noise.

Yes Brian, that makes very much sense. As my original question was for a recording rig for quiet ambience setting your recomendation should fit the bill best.

My other requirements are small, lightweight, easy to use. I even had asked for high quality Mics that do not require phantom power for not having to carry a powering box and the heavy XLR connectores - which led to the SP-CMC4s. A R-09 certainly is much lighter than an H120+AD-20 combo.

However we do not have a direct comparison of the preamps and A/D of the R-09 and the AD-20. SunWizard reports that the R-09's are very quiet, even quiet enough for 'nature' recordings. But the question remains: Are the A/D and preamp of the R-09 as quiet as the A/D+preamp of the AD-20? -  It would be perfect if somebody who owns both could shed light on this!

I see the big advantage of the onboard memory of the H1xx. But SP-CMC4 > R-09 must be the smallest, most lightweight, easy to set up and easy to use rig. Therefore in case that it is almost as noise free as the h1xx+AD-20 combo it should be my prefered choice. ( I carry a 2,5 and a 3,5 external HD around with me and there are not expensive cases incl. cardreader that allow direct upload which should solve the storage question )

concerning SP-CMC4: As that they sound, as you say, almost as good as the C4s they really make a very good choice for their small volume. ( The C4s could be a better match with the AD-20 for their XLR connectors ).
From some posts I got the impression that some would slightly prefer the AT853Rx, but I did not find out why.
Can the capsules on the SP-CMC4 also be changed?

concerning battery box:

You get a cleaner recording using the battery box since then you can set the gain much lower

So that means that the battery box not only helps for very loud sound source, but also for quiet ambience recordings, yes? The optional low cut and gain adjustments on the SP battery boxes can be of advantage, for loud sound sources the 3 wired selfmade box is favoured but not for quiet sound source as it lowers the gain, right? However I do like soldering and experimenting, so eventually I may try to make one, or better a preamp? ( now I can't - I am 'on the road' )

So, in the end: A H120 is on it's way, but I decided as not to get a AD-20 as of yet since I consider to change my recorder to be a R-09. I will start recording with my AT822 directly plugged into the H120...
..so I'd better enquire what is recommended for that! Chances are that I may stay with the H120 for some time before getting a R-09 anyway: I enjoy experimenting, would like trying to make my own preamp, as I guess a preamp would allow going line-in instead of mic-in which could be of advantage..well, if my selfmade preamp was better than the iriver's.. .

I wonder if my next investment sould be SP-CMC4s since you say:

The AT-853 are so hot with the battery box that for concerts you can run Line-in (no mic pre.)

to try them out directly inline >  H120!

[SunWizard]

The CMC-4 are the same capsules as the AT853Rx and can be changed.  The Rx version has xlr transformers hard wired onto them, which are kind of large.  Some people like them better because then you get the sound equivalent to the 3 wire battery box. I have both and have done comparison tests.  But then you are limited to xlr and providing full 48v phantom power, and its not as small and you can't do the plug power or 9v battery box options.

Yes the battery box helps with quiet nature recordings because you need less preamp gain.  And the 3 wire does lower the gain compared to the SP box.

The iRiver doesn't have a mic input, you must go line in, so you need hot mics like the AT-853 with batt. box, or an external pre.

[petur]

The iRiver doesn't have a mic input, you must go line in, so you need hot mics like the AT-853 with batt. box, or an external pre.

My iriver h3x0 supplies about 3.7V plug power, I'm quite sure the h1x0 series do the same. Maybe not much but it's still something

[kuuan]

The CMC-4 are the same capsules as the AT853Rx and can be changed.  The Rx version has xlr transformers hard wired onto them, which are kind of large.  Some people like them better because then you get the sound equivalent to the 3 wire battery box. I have both and have done comparison tests.  But then you are limited to xlr and providing full 48v phantom power, and its not as small and you can't do the plug power or 9v battery box options.

So the SP-CMC4s is my best choice.

Yes the battery box helps with quiet nature recordings because you need less preamp gain.  And the 3 wire does lower the gain compared to the SP box.

I had seen the schematics of the 3 wired battery box, but how about a 2 wired one? Sould be easy to be made by oneself, or could that lower the gain again? What would I have to be careful about that it would not lower the gain?

The iRiver doesn't have a mic input, you must go line in, so you need hot mics like the AT-853 with batt. box, or an external pre.

petur said it: the iriver does supply plug in power, but I can imagine that an external preamp and going line in could enhance quality.

[SunWizard]

I had seen the schematics of the 3 wired battery box, but how about a 2 wired one? Sould be easy to be made by oneself, or could that lower the gain again? What would I have to be careful about that it would not lower the gain?

You could make a 2 wire battery box, just need to connect the correct wires and it would not lower the gain.

The iRiver doesn't have a mic input, you must go line in, so you need hot mics like the AT-853 with batt. box, or an external pre.

petur said it: the iriver does supply plug in power, but I can imagine that an external preamp and going line in could enhance quality.

To clarify: the input on the iRiver labeled Line-in can be used with mics as can any line level inputs if your mics output a high enough signal.  But its self noise is a problem if you add much gain so thats why Brian recommended using the AD-20.  The mic in jack on the R-09 provides much more gain than line in so the battery box is not as needed.

[SunWizard]

I ran some tests to better answer some of your questions, and put up a new post about it here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=68447.0

[kuuan]

To clarify: the input on the iRiver labeled Line-in can be used with mics as can any line level inputs if your mics output a high enough signal.  But its self noise is a problem if you add much gain so thats why Brian recommended using the AD-20.  The mic in jack on the R-09 provides much more gain than line in so the battery box is not as needed.

Yes, I was aware of this, and this why I never doubted Brian's recommendation,  I even liked it a lot! since I always liked the idea of being able to use a HD player to be my recorder, and pariticularily find the iriver/Rockbox story very attractive.
But I am a bit weary of the bulk of the AD-20, so in case the preamp and A/D of the R-09 are as or almost as quiet as those of the AD-20 I'd prefer the R-09 for being smaller, lighter and easier to use.

I am very surprised that you attest your sample recordings SP-CMC4 > battery box > iriver to create 'inaudible noise even at max gain'. That makes me very excited and I can't wait for the H120 to arrive to try it out with my AT822.

You could make a 2 wire battery box, just need to connect the correct wires and it would not lower the gain.

I will have to find out just how to connect them correctly...
But I may not be able to use a battery box with my mic. though.. In the specs of the AT822, it says:

Warning: The AT822 is designed for battery operation only. Do not attempt to use when phantom power is present. Possible damage to the microphone may result.

hm..any way around? Would 9 Volts really harm the AT822 or should I give it a try? Has anybody done that before?

Of course the AD-20 would ensure very low noise, but you even give me hope that the iriver, if using a battery box, could be 'quiet' enough. I suppose that using an external preamp should even be better, though it must be small, inexpensive or self made, otherwise the AD-20 really would make more sense after all.

[SunWizard]

Whataboutbob in this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65932.0 mentions he has an iriver and at853 and ad-20 and lots more and has run hundreds of tests.  He would be a good one to contact about how the ad-20 compares to other devices.

[kuuan]

Whataboutbob in this thread http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=65932.0 mentions he has an iriver and at853 and ad-20 and lots more and has run hundreds of tests.  He would be a good one to contact about how the ad-20 compares to other devices.

thank you very much for your tip.
I had PMed too much lately though, and became shy about it

[kuuan]

thank you very much for all of you help.

Here my report on how it turned out...so far:

Got an iRiver H120 and SP-CMC4s with an SP-SPSB-10  battery box + roll off from the Yard Sale
( the mics + BB won't be with me until october though ).

I did not get the AD-20 because I had two PMs telling they did not like it's sound.
I also had a PM of a very respected and helpful member telling me not to loose time with the iRiver, to resell it and to get an R-09 instead.
For now I want to give the iRiver H120 full justice:
I will have use for it as an mp3 player, I like Rockbox and the rugged body of the iRiver.
Now I only can use AT822 > H1xx and I don't find the result great, too noisy. Therefore I still wonder if CMC4 > BB > H1xx will give satisfactory result, or if a preamp, even the AD-20 is required. But as jpsalt says: 'I Luvs it.'

I will continue to watch the reports on the Edirol R-09.
I still wonder if an R-09 'alone' rivals the recording quality if an ext. preamp < H120, even AD-20 < H1xx.
Though overall reports are very positive it does have a weak build and it seems to have reliability issues depending on which SD card used.
( I played around with an R-09 in a shop, even made sample recordings with my mic to my SD card - the one the shop used resulted in faulty recordings - and could not stop wondering how easy this machine could get broken, as did drewloo's. A worry I don't have with the iRiver, even though SunWizard would see that differently. )

I don't know yet if I will invest in an ext. preamp or the AD-20 or will get an R-09 as well. If so not now but later when hopefully it will be cheaper and record to 4 GB SD cards ( or even bigger ones, they should be issued soon since Panasonic's newest AVCHD High Definition videocameras will record to SD )

[kuuan]

In the meantime I got a small but able 9 Volt powered preamp which also powers the mic which works fine and makes me a happy iHP120 owner.