Topic: a cappella vocal performance: Schoeps MKxx or AKG 414 > V3

[Brian Skalinder]

All,

I'm recording my father's amateur a capella group's annual Christmas performance in what I've heard is a gorgeous sounding venue:  Chicago's St. Mary of Perpetual Help.  A pic of the venue from the website:



Unfortunately, won't be hearing the organ, but the a capella vocal performance in a gorgeous sounding environment promises loads of fun.  Today, in a different venue - though still a gorgeous sounding church - the resident audio geek in the vocal group set up around 6 rows back, DFC, about 7' up:  Audio Technica AT4051 (XY-90º) > Mackie MicroSeries MS1202 (I think) > Sony PCM-R300.  I imagine I'll run on his stand (or him on mine) to minimize sight-line issues and visual clutter.

Split / Jecklin disc omnis probably aren't in the cards at the moment due to sight-line issues and lack of Jecklin disc.  So, assuming same running conditions as above - ~6 rows back, DFC, 7' up - I'm leaning towards:

Schoeps MK21 (NOS) > KC5 > CMC6 > V3
The open, natural sound of the subcards really appeals to me given the quality performance space.

or

AKG C 414 B-ULS (M-S) > V3
The ability to mix down the M-S after-the-fact appeals to me so I can control the stereo image given I'm recording in an unfamiliar space and a new music style.

Which would you choose?  Or would you set up completely differently given the gear available?

MK21 / MK4 / MK41 > KC5/CMC6
AKG C 414 B-ULS
V3

I expect a similar crowd to this afternoon:  quiet, attentive, polite.  FWIW, I'll have around 30 minutes of sound-check / rehearsal time in the venue to adjust positioning, mic config, etc.  So I may schlep all my gear down, but I'd like to have an idea of what I want to run before getting there.

FYI, I'm trying to track down a loaner V3 , but am not counting on it. 

[John R]

i would do 414 m/s.  is your dad the big guy with the beard?

[Brian Skalinder]

i would do 414 m/s.  is your dad the big guy with the beard?

Thanks for the input, JR.  And yup - that's him. 

[zhianosatch]

and his sister's not too far away, is she?
and a brother or an uncle! ha!

[Tim]

gotta agree, go with the akg's if their size won't be an issue... 21s nos would be my second choice

[goose]

This situation sounds similar to what I experience when I record classical music with Moke.

We record in very good sounding venues with attentive, low noise crowds.  I would, given my experience on the few trips with Moke, use the subcards over the mid-side. 

I believe the 414s can do sub-card as well, if switched in between the other patterns.

I think omni or subcard would sound best in an ideal venue/audience situation.

Just my two cents.  Fyi - I will be using the AKG extension cable omnis (ck2x) this Sunday for a recording with Moke.

Regardless, enjoy!

(Moke may have some input on this as well.)

[Brian Skalinder]

Goose - The new B-XLS have the sub-card setting, but unfortunately the older 414 B-ULS do not.

Decisions, decisions...

[Brian Skalinder]

are they going to be in the organ loft, or at the lower level?

Lower level, just in front of the entrance to the altar area (dunno the proper name).

quality acoustics in a room begs for Blumlein, and that center aisle is a great advantage to you!

Hadn't thought of Blumlein!  My only concern with Blumlein is picking up too much audience shuffle / sniffle / noise.  But I *love* all the Blumlein recordings I've heard.  Thanks for making my decision more difficult, Moke. 

A more diffuse field sounds alot better than getting too close, though I wouldn't go any deeper than 2nd or 3rd row, because of the audience noise factor.

I'll chat with Dave, the resident audio geek in the group, about running a bit closer than ~6 rows back.  There is *some* concern about sight-lines and such, but I think I can talk him into moving up.  What happened yesterday:  no one in the audience sat in rows 1-6.  Now, I'm sure some of them realized it was probably too close, but most I suspect didn't sit up front because they saw the mics and somehow thought it was off-limits.  If we move the mics forward a couple rows, the crowd'll move forward a few rows, too.

The group sets up as two rows:  first row of 6 across, and second row of 5 across - total spread L to R is probably 15-17'.  As you said, Moke, I don't wanna get too close.  While I don't want to have the sops/altos on the right hand side belting into the right-facing mic, and the tenors/basses on the left, I don't want to get so far back I lose some of the stereo imaging of their location.  I'll have an opportunity to wander around a bit during rehearsal, so I oughta be able to pick a good spot.

This is all very different from taping in my known haunts / environment / location / pattern!  Fun...   

Or,.... go rear of hall, and crank your stand up if you want to capture all of the hall.

Maybe on the next one, I think I'll sick closer to the source on this one.

I'm very likely going to go rear-of-hall with Goose on sunday, beause we will be recording a brass chamber ensemble.

Sounds like fun!

[Kwonfidelity]

Sorry if I missed it.   Any problems with setting it up in front of them instead of in the rows?  (As long as you can get it in and out quickly, one stand, etc, etc)

[Brian Skalinder]

BTW, thanks to Jonny's loaner V3 (you da man!), I'm able to run both 414s and Schoeps.     I'm sure the group will run their own setup like last time:  XY-90º.  So right now I'm thinking 414s Blumlein and MK21s NOS.

Sorry if I missed it.   Any problems with setting it up in front of them instead of in the rows?  (As long as you can get it in and out quickly, one stand, etc, etc)

In front of them...as in, *directly* in front of them?  In casual conversation, before we discussed my recording them, I suggested moving their mics wellllll up front, basically directly in front of them.  Initial reaction wasn't real positive due to sightline concerns.  Though if I keep it below shoulder-level it may fly.  Question is, who's shoulder-level - heights range from 6'4 to 4'10!  Though that close, I'm concerned about picking up exaggerated L/R imaging given the ~15-17' spread from one side of the group to the other.

If I can get up that close, what do you recommend with mic height of, say...4'?

[Tim]

way to go Jonny... very nice of you.

[Kwonfidelity]

BTW, thanks to Jonny's loaner V3 (you da man!), I'm able to run both 414s and Schoeps.     I'm sure the group will run their own setup like last time:  XY-90º.  So right now I'm thinking 414s Blumlein and MK21s NOS.

Sorry if I missed it.   Any problems with setting it up in front of them instead of in the rows?  (As long as you can get it in and out quickly, one stand, etc, etc)

In front of them...as in, *directly* in front of them?  In casual conversation, before we discussed my recording them, I suggested moving their mics wellllll up front, basically directly in front of them.  Initial reaction wasn't real positive due to sightline concerns.  Though if I keep it below shoulder-level it may fly.  Question is, who's shoulder-level - heights range from 6'4 to 4'10!  Though that close, I'm concerned about picking up exaggerated L/R imaging given the ~15-17' spread from one side of the group to the other.

If I can get up that close, what do you recommend with mic height of, say...4'?

If you can get that close you can still pick up anything they sing really well at waist level, I've done it successfully with all type of setups (m/s, nos, etc).  If it's a hollow stage I would let them now not to thump the stage with their feet (some vocalists do to keep the rhythm).  If they have to just use a cut filter(cut1) or roll off below 60/70hz.  M/S, NOS, whatever at that distance.  A stereo config would be the best compact size to set up/down.  I would go NOS MK21s(but what else would you expect from me), I'll even send you the bar for the actives if you need one.  If the separation is too much/little, take it into a daw and mix it down to what you prefer, but at 15' spread, nos (30cm) you should get it all nicely.

You'd be surprised what they'll let you do, especially if you can get the group to back you on it.  Keep the deck away where they can't see it.  When they set up, crouch down, set it up, press record, get out of the way, then break down just as fast.  Once they see the professionality you're in like flynn for any future projects...

[Brian Skalinder]

This is a blumlein rigging directly in front of the vocalist (tallest, nearest music stand). It was for a single vocalist, bass, and  was very, very solidly represented vocals, almost 'board like, save for the rear lobes capturing the audience response.
This was in the center aisle, 1st row dfc, and about 4' high (that is my big stand, totally closed up).

Cool, Moke, thanks for the tips and pics.  I think you've talked me into Blumlein with the 414s, now the question is where I can set up.  If you achieved good results with the stand topping out at 4'...hhmmmm...I think I can probably convince them to let me run way up front if I limit the height.  And yeah, you're absolutely right on the LD's vertical config's sightline-friendliness - not much of a footprint at all.

If you can get that close you can still pick up anything they sing really well at waist level, I've done it successfully with all type of setups (m/s, nos, etc).  If it's a hollow stage I would let them now not to thump the stage with their feet (some vocalists do to keep the rhythm).  M/S, NOS, whatever at that distance.  A stereo config would be the best compact size to set up/down.  I would go NOS MK21s(but what else would you expect from me), I'll even send you the bar for the actives if you need one.  If the separation is too much/little, take it into a daw and mix it down to what you prefer, but at 15' spread, nos (30cm) you should get it all nicely.

You'd be surprised what they'll let you do, especially if you can get the group to back you on it.  Keep the deck away where they can't see it.  When they set up, crouch down, set it up, press record, get out of the way, then break down just as fast.  Once they see the professionality you're in like flynn for any future projects...

Yeah, big surprise on the MK21 recommendation.    I'm partial to 'em myself.  Thanks for the NOS-bar offer, but I already have one - love it, thanks for your work making those bars!  Now I need to flesh out my ORTF/DIN/NOS bars with a DINA bar.

Glad to hear you guys think it'll be alright if I run up close, even if a bit low.  I think as long as I don't jut up above the music stands they'll each have in front of them, they won't have a problem with running up close.  This past Sunday, some were on risers topped with carpet, others on carpeted steps leading to the choir area of the church in front of the altar.  I didn't notice any foot-tapping, though I'll keep an eye and ear out at rehearsal.

A couple more pics of the place.  I didn't realize I previously posted a rear-view pic of the space.  Here's a better front-looking pic (so you can actually see where they'll perform) down the aisle towards the altar.  The group likely will set up in the space between the front row of parish seating and the railing entrance to the choir and altar area:



And a side view:



And for anyone who's interested, some additional pics here:  http://www.planet99.com/chicago/tour/11877x.html

[Kwonfidelity]

Blum would work awesome, too!  And with those pics, no problems running lower than waist - marble floor will work to your advantage in capturing great sound...

I'm addicted to projects like these...

[F.O.Bean]

sounds like a fun project brian

[eric.B]

With my experience of ONCE recording a pipe organ in a semi large room(not as big as the one in your pic)..  Id say its a toss up between the 414's NOS subcard(if you have it) or Blumlein..  and its a toss up between setting close and low, or back farther and higher up. 

enjoy!

[Brian Skalinder]

Many thanks for everyone's suggestions, tips, etc.  I moved the mics around a bit and walked around during rehearsal to find the spot that sounded best to my ears.  I ran MK21s NOS, and 414s Blumlein from the same stand, ~12' back, ~5-6' up.  Farther forward and it exaggerated the L/R stereo image too much and also picked up individual voices too strongly.  Farther back and/or higher and I got too much of the room.  I'll have a few pics and maybe a sample or two in the next couple days.   I must say, I'm very pleased with the results. 

[Brian Skalinder]

Well.  First off, BIG thanks to Jonny for lending me his V3 - I'm glad I got two recordings and he made it all possible.  And thanks to the rest of you for the advice - set my mind at ease going into this and helped me out tremendously.  The quick response:  I'm very pleased with both recordings and like both for different reasons.  FWIW, I ran:

Schoeps MK21 (NOS) > V3 > JB3
AKG C 414 B-ULS (Blumlein) > V3 > Hosa ODL-312 > JB3

The group sang on the steps leading up to the altar area, raised up a couple feet.  Since I could set up in a large center aisle, no problem running the mics around audience-standing head-height.  Set up mics about 12' back from the group, MK21s ~6' up, 414s ~5' up.  As expected, the MK21s provide a very open sense of space while the 414s picked up a bit more audience shuffle and offered a stronger L/R stereo image.  I plopped my mics down and walked around a bit during rehearsal and found that any closer and the L/R imaging was too exaggerated, farther back and I would've picked up too much of the room reverb.  Some minor forward/back tweaking is all it needed.  Dave, the group's recording guy, said he likes to run right around head-height because running too high he picked up too much room as well.  So, I took his advice and kept things fairly low. 

A few un-mastered, raw samples attached.  Since it's an unamplified performance, there's a bit more HF noise than I'm used to.  In WAV I've already played around a bit with some minor NR schemes and had some success - time will tell if I can get it to a point where I'm satisfied or if I'll just leave it alone.  Note:  the MP3 compression does weird things to the ambient HF noise.  Anyway, here're the samples, a total of 6 MP3s - 3 selections from both sets of mics:

procession.x.mp3
The group started Caroling, Caroling towards the back half of the church in two lines and proceeded up the aisle and past the mics before filing into the "stage" space.  Love the sound of the C414s Blumlein, hearing the voices switch from L > R and vice versa as they walked by!  MK21s don't sound too shabby on this one, either.

wonder.x.mp3
Intro solo to I Wonder As I Wander.  Clear, clean, pristine.  And my sister. 

12days.x.mp3
Twelve Days of Christmas blurb.  During rehearsal, I set my peaks for this section - only to have another section a bit louder during the performance.  Fortunately, I figured something like that might happen so I gave myself a bit of room on levels and this one turned out okay.  On the other track, I just barely clipped - sounds fine after minor restoration.

And I gotta toss some pics out there else Moke'll get pissed at me, Evil Moderator that he is.  FWIW, maybe 75 people showed up - I took these all pretty early in the afternoon...

Front from sorta close:



Front from farther back:



Front showing the full arch:



The "stage" space:



View of the stage from the side, including my mics:



And the obligatory gear pic:

[F.O.Bean]

nice brian