Topic: Unconventional Requirements (iPhone, Roland r-07, Shure MV88+, Zoom F3)

[tonyjuliano]

 :cheers:Hello All…

I’m relatively new to the taper scene, and desire to learn as much as I can from all of you.  My desired outcome is something most here would probably find a bit unusual.

What I mean is that I want to start taping live performances, but with the end result being decent quality but not striving for anything approaching sonic perfection.  This is due to the following reasons…

• I wish to document the “experience” over sonic clarity.  It’s more important to me to have a record of the overall “feel” of sessions in lieu of anything approaching sonic perfection.  Crowd noise, etc. is actually ok with me, as it would add to the unique characteristics of that particular session.  But…  I don’t want total garbage either, wishing to strike a balance between some modicum of performance, but retain overall experience of sessions.
• Due to my age (fast approaching 60), and some past accident, my hearing ain’t in the best shape.  I have approx. 30% hearing loss in my left ear, to say nothing of what would be considered normal age-related loss in overall range.
• I don’t want to “break the bank” on gear either.  It doesn’t make sense to me to commit to multiple thousands of dollars, given my aforementioned desired outcome.

This being stated, here is a list of gear I’ve been looking into, keeping in mind that recording will always be ‘stealthy”, and take place in small to medium sized venues at sometimes relatively high SPL (nothing crazy, think normal rock type shows).

Setup 1 - cheap and dirty
iPhone X with Apogee MetaRecorder and Sennheiser Ambeo Binaural headset (like the idea of having mics and monitoring capability in the same form factor).  Also adding Shure MV88+ for a “non-stealthy”, but more flexible option.

Setup 2 - mid tier
Roland r-07 with Roland cs-10em binaural headset (again, same form factor for mics and monitoring) - could also utilize battery box from setup 3, below, for louder venues.

Setup 3 - a bit more
Roland r-07 with mics and battery box from audioreality.com.  I realize similar offerings available from Church Audio and Sound Professionals are considered higher caliber, but don’t think the extra expense is warranted, in my particular situation.  In this setup, monitoring would take place using a medium quality IEM plugged into r-07 headphone jack.

Setup 4 - Tops (for me)
Zoom F3 with matched pair of condensers (TBD, but nothing too pricey - $100 to $200 range for the pair)

My plan is to purchase all gear mentioned above, therefore having 5 different setup options available to me for different opportunities.

I welcome all your expert advice, thanks in advance.

[detroit lightning]

Welcome!

What types of music do you plan to record?

I think your plan sounds great! I’m not familiar with that Sennheiser headset, but it sounds cool. The shure mv88 is another fairly inexpensive / iPhone based mic that might offer you some options.

Overall I’d say give it a shot, see what you like and what you don’t, and make some tweaks! Making the kind of recordings you’re looking for (or a a nice tape period) doesn’t require breaking the bank.

Have fun!

[tonyjuliano]

Welcome!

What types of music do you plan to record?

I think your plan sounds great! I’m not familiar with that Sennheiser headset, but it sounds cool. The shure mv88 is another fairly inexpensive / iPhone based mic that might offer you some options.

Thanks for the welcome, and your suggestion.  I plan on recording mostly amplified music, in a variety of settings (everything from coffee shops to 200-300 seat venues) all types of music, from acoustic sets to rock shows.

The Shure looks intriguing, not as “stealthy” as the other options I listed, but worth looking into, thanks.

[roffels]

I used Sound Professional's binaural mics for years, with a 12v battery box. I think binaural mics will suit your purposes well, only issue I've had is the binaurals don't handle really loud music well.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

If you want super easy, and willing to give up a few notches on quality the Sennheiser Ambeo Headset will do the job. This is what I use if I'm unsure of the security situation, or I just don't care about making the best quality recording.

The mics are a few notches down from what others have posted here. Also they are discontinued, but from what I understand you can still find them if you look hard enough. I think I saw someone just bought a set for about $50. You'll need an iPhone or iPod touch though.

Here is an example of what they can do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3sHVgTBhOQ

[Ozpeter]

You'll need an iPhone or iPod touch though.

They work with (most) Android devices with a suitable adapter.  See https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184075.msg2368067#msg2368067 and subsequent posts.

[tonyjuliano]

If you want super easy, and willing to give up a few notches on quality the Sennheiser Ambeo Headset will do the job. This is what I use if I'm unsure of the security situation, or I just don't care about making the best quality recording.

The mics are a few notches down from what others have posted here. Also they are discontinued, but from what I understand you can still find them if you look hard enough. I think I saw someone just bought a set for about $50. You'll need an iPhone or iPod touch though.

Fortunately, didn’t have to look very hard…

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F72P94X?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Question, though.  I’m a bit “put off” by the inability to fine tune input level, as there seems to be only the ability to select two coarser pre-set levels (“natural” or “reduce”).  Does the included software prevent (MetaRecorder) clipping dynamically? 

My limited playing around with it so far, in low SPL situation, has produced somewhat muted result.  I realize I can amplify this post, but wonder if I’m doing something wrong.

BTW…. Hats off to your organizational skills (referring to the way you’ve documented the shows you’ve attended, in the Google sheet linked in your sig), I’m definitely going to try to implement something akin to that.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

^ I have had good luck with reduce levels setting. Your issue isn't levels that are too low, it will be too high. At the reduced level I'm usually peaking around -3 to 0 (occasionally over for a nearby screamer).

I haven't used these for a really loud show so you might have trouble in that dept.

Again...these aren't anywhere near the best option, but they get the job done, especially if trading in effort for quality is OK.

[heva]

Regarding ‘a few notches down’ - a renowned recording engineer who knows his stuff guest an ambeo recording of mine was made with a neumann head.
Good enough quality :-)

[tonyjuliano]

^ I have had good luck with reduce levels setting. Your issue isn't levels that are too low, it will be too high. At the reduced level I'm usually peaking around -3 to 0 (occasionally over for a nearby screamer).

I haven't used these for a really loud show so you might have trouble in that dept.

Again...these aren't anywhere near the best option, but they get the job done, especially if trading in effort for quality is OK.

I get it…. Kind of hard to see how it could respond in higher SPL, time will tell.

Regarding ‘a few notches down’ - a renowned recording engineer who knows his stuff guest an ambeo recording of mine was made with a neumann head.
Good enough quality :-)

Hoping!

[tonyjuliano]

OK...  Revised my original post.  After much research, I've fallen totally in love with the perceived capability of the Zoom F3, and while it definitely wouldn't be anything close to "stealthy", this would definitely give me a quality option where being unobtrusive is not required (Festivals, and venues where taping is freely allowed).  Also, I've become intrigued by the Shure MV88+ setup (especially the video capabilities), and again - while not stealthy - present some options where the phone is my chosen method of recording.

Here is my updated setup listing, with additions highlighted in red (hoping some of you with experience with these specific units give opinions)...

Setup 1 - cheap and dirty
iPhone X with Apogee MetaRecorder and Sennheiser Ambeo Binaural headset (like the idea of having mics and monitoring capability in the same form factor).  Also adding Shure MV88+ for a “non-stealthy”, but more flexible option.

Setup 2 - mid tier
Roland r-07 with Roland cs-10em binaural headset (again, same form factor for mics and monitoring) - could also utilize battery box from setup 3, below, for louder venues.

Setup 3 - a bit more
Roland r-07 with mics and battery box from audioreality.com.  I realize similar offerings available from Church Audio and Sound Professionals are considered higher caliber, but don’t think the extra expense is warranted, in my particular situation.  In this setup, monitoring would take place using a medium quality IEM plugged into r-07 headphone jack.

Setup 4 - Tops (for me)
Zoom F3 with matched pair of condensers (TBD, but nothing too pricey - $100 to $200 range for the pair)

[roffels]

Any reason you want to go with the r07 over something like the Sony A10?

I have both, and use the Roland r07 in a pinch, but the Sony A10 is much more stealthy, has a rock-solid bluetooth connection compared to the Roland, and also does both line-in and mic-in, while the Roland only does mic-in. If you don't care about the extra bulk or bluetooth, the roland should work well.

[tonyjuliano]

Any reason you want to go with the r07 over something like the Sony A10?

I have both, and use the Roland r07 in a pinch, but the Sony A10 is much more stealthy, has a rock-solid bluetooth connection compared to the Roland, and also does both line-in and mic-in, while the Roland only does mic-in. If you don't care about the extra bulk or bluetooth, the roland should work well.

Yes, mainly price (I got a hold of a brand new, in the box r-07 for $100).

The Sony seems to be superior in a lot of ways (has internal memory - plus sd, internal mics are more adjustable, dedicated
 line-in recording) but…

• The r-07 BT has been rock solid for me (iPhone)
• I actually prefer the form factor of the Roland
• Roland does 2X wav record
• Sony has non-replaceable battery, r-07 takes good old AA’s
• Sony felt “cheaper” in the hand, to me

Did I mention price? 

Thanks for taking the time to give input, the A10 would certainly be a better choice for a lot of people.[/list][/list]

[tonyjuliano]

Ok, I’ve had the Ambeo headset for a couple of days now, some thoughts…

• They work pretty nicely for lower SPL stuff, walking about is pretty decent, moderate sound levels, etc.
• The Apogee MetaRecorder app is top notch
• Manual gain control would be nice, alas not happening
• They DEFINITELY are not usable in high SPL environments
• For what I paid - $65 - worth it to me

Just received the rest the stuff for “setup 2”, anxious to see how it compares, as these are similar setups.

[aaronji]

It seems to me that there is a lot of overlap in your proposed set-ups. Why not start with one small and one larger rig and see where those are lacking before buying another? Personally, I would rather have one or two pairs of good mics than five pairs of lesser ones.

[tonyjuliano]

It seems to me that there is a lot of overlap in your proposed set-ups. Why not start with one small and one larger rig and see where those are lacking before buying another? Personally, I would rather have one or two pairs of good mics than five pairs of lesser ones.

Yes, much overlap, for now.  But this is to figure out what works.  Ill ultimately end up with just 2 setups, I imagine.  One for "stealth" and another for quality.  But I have to  try out all the scenarios to get there.

[aaronji]

^ Well, no, not really. Most of these things are known quantities, with lots of information and user reports available.

[Gutbucket]

Two things-
First- Don't worry about audible monitoring while recording.  You only need to audibly monitor with headphones as needed for troubleshooting and setup. When recording you only need to verify that you have signal and have good levels, visual monitoring is helpful for that.

Second- The quality of your recordings will primarily determined by the following hierarchy:
1. Recording location.
2. Recording location.
3. Recording location.
4. The transducers you use and how you arrange them (microphones and configuration).
5. Managing the immediate environment around the recording location.
6. Everything else.  It just needs to work. This includes whatever recorder you use.

Better mics are the topmost part of the equipment portion of the hierarchy. How you use them is next important. Nothing is more important than recording location, other than the supporting equipment being setup correctly and simply working right.

[tonyjuliano]

Two things-
First- Don't worry about audible monitoring while recording.  You only need to audibly monitor with headphones as needed for troubleshooting and setup. When recording you only need to verify that you have signal and have good levels, visual monitoring is helpful for that.

Second- The quality of your recordings will primarily determined by the following hierarchy:
1. Recording location.
2. Recording location.
3. Recording location.
4. The transducers you use and how you arrange them (microphones and configuration).
5. Managing the immediate environment around the recording location.
6. Everything else.  It just needs to work. This includes whatever recorder you use.

Better mics are the topmost part of the equipment portion of the hierarchy. How you use them is next important. Nothing is more important than recording location, other than the supporting equipment being setup correctly and simply working right.

This…. All this, is excellent advice.

Thank you for your contribution.

[tonyjuliano]

Ok, have had the chance to test out scenario’s 2 and 3

Setup 2 - r-07 and cs-10em binaural headset:
Worlds better than setup 1 (iPhone with Sennheiser binaural headset). Having full gain control, along with adequate plug in play voltage applied (neither of which the iPhone setup can do) makes a huge difference. I also tested the addition of a 9v battery box, and it works out great for high SPL.

Setup 3 - r-07 and audioreality.com mics & battery box:
Also works very well. This is a decent cardioid option to setup 2’s omni mics.

Looks like I’ll relegate the iPhone/Sennheiser combo to just “walking about” duty. Nice to have this option with me, anywhere, all the time, but knowing it’s limitations.

Setups 2 and 3 will be my go-to “stealth” setups, having the option between omni or cardioid patterns is a flexible nicety.

This just leaves setup 4, the non-stealth “quality” option (zoom f3 and a matched pair of condensers).  I really don’t think I need to test this scenario, I know it will work - and well, but I need to decide which matched pair of condensers is right for me (and my budget).  Also need to figure out the best way to adapt the setup 3 mics and battery box for use with the zoom f3, as it is XLR input only.

[jefflester]

Ok, have had the chance to test out scenario’s 2 and 3

Setup 2 - r-07 and cs-10em binaural headset:
Worlds better than setup 1 (iPhone with Sennheiser binaural headset). Having full gain control, along with adequate plug in play voltage applied (neither of which the iPhone setup can do) makes a huge difference. I also tested the addition of a 9v battery box, and it works out great for high SPL.

Setup 3 - r-07 and audioreality.com mics & battery box:
Also works very well. This is a decent cardioid option to setup 2’s omni mics.

Looks like I’ll relegate the iPhone/Sennheiser combo to just “walking about” duty. Nice to have this option with me, anywhere, all the time, but knowing it’s limitations.

Setups 2 and 3 will be my go-to “stealth” setups, having the option between omni or cardioid patterns is a flexible nicety.

This just leaves setup 4, the non-stealth “quality” option (zoom f3 and a matched pair of condensers).  I really don’t think I need to test this scenario, I know it will work - and well, but I need to decide which matched pair of condensers is right for me (and my budget).  Also need to figure out the best way to adapt the setup 3 mics and battery box for use with the zoom f3, as it is XLR input only.

Are the audio reality mics an older model? The mics on his current site are omni binaural mics as well, I'm not sure you are going to see much of difference between them and the cs-10em binaurals.
http://audioreality.com/

If you want to adapt the audio reality mics to use with a Zoom F3, you would just use 1/8" to XLR adapter(s). If you were relying on the R-07 (or other small deck) to provide low voltage ("plug-in power") for the mics you would have more of a challenge. But since you are using the battery box you are all set. But if you are going to create a setup for open taping situations, you'd really want to get that pair of cardioid mics. You can use omnis, but you need to either spread them wide (3 feet) or put a baffle of some sort ("Jecklin Disc") between them to get any stereo.

[tonyjuliano]

Are the audio reality mics an older model?

Custom made for me, with cardioid capsules I supplied (with help from him in terms of specification).

If you want to adapt the audio reality mics to use with a Zoom F3, you would just use 1/8" to XLR adapter(s).

That’s what I figured, but want to see if I can find the mist “elegant” adapter situation.  Right now that looks like female 3.5mm stereo to twin male XLR connectors.

If you were relying on the R-07 (or other small deck) to provide low voltage ("plug-in power") for the mics you would have more of a challenge. But since you are using the battery box you are all set. But if you are going to create a setup for open taping situations, you'd really want to get that pair of cardioid mics. You can use omnis, but you need to either spread them wide (3 feet) or put a baffle of some sort ("Jecklin Disc") between them to get any stereo.

Yes, battery box was key.  In regard to open taping, it would be marched cardioids all the way, but whose pair is the question.

[jefflester]

Are the audio reality mics an older model?

Custom made for me, with cardioid capsules I supplied (with help from him in terms of specification).

Ah, nice!

Are they still that small? If you put 'em on a stand for open taping how are you going to hold/position them?

That’s what I figured, but want to see if I can find the mist “elegant” adapter situation.  Right now that looks like female 3.5mm stereo to twin male XLR connectors.

Is it the battery box in his photo or a hard-wired cable out with 1/8" male plug? If it is a female 1/8" jack in the battery box it's just one cable/splitter.
Like:
https://www.zzounds.com/item--HOSHMX015Y?siid=285490

[tonyjuliano]

Are they still that small? If you put 'em on a stand for open taping how are you going to hold/position them?

Ever so slightly larger.  Won’t be used for open taping, will use a matched pair of traditional condensers for that, but want to see if I can adapt the stealth mics for use with the f3 (if I could possibly find a way to make the recorder more stealthy).

Is it the battery box in his photo or a hard-wired cable out with 1/8" male plug?

Yes - the battery box shown on audioreality.com site, which has two 3.5mm female stereo connectors.

[drgary]

I have had a set of Audioreality mics for a few years now and they've worked very well.  I have them taped to a "U" shaped piece of rigid wire, taken from a coat hanger, that I fit under my collar when I'm out taping.  That seems to work great except when I accidentally say something to my wife that needs to be edited out. 

[swordfish]

I have had a set of Audioreality mics for a few years now and they've worked very well.  I have them taped to a "U" shaped piece of rigid wire, taken from a coat hanger, that I fit under my collar when I'm out taping.  That seems to work great except when I accidentally say something to my wife that needs to be edited out. 

+1
I use a piece of 4 mm Chopper wire with a black shirt,
 used it with in the past with CA 14 cards and
Sound Professionals CMC 25