Topic: Prospective taper::: What can you tell me about mic setup / placement?

[princecaspian]

Hey there,

Just wondering what your go-to mic setup is, in terms of how high, where they are pointed etc.

Please share!

[rhinowing]

depends on the venue, what kind of places would you be taping in?

edit-but in general, higher=better

[princecaspian]

Just post whatever you do for whatever venue.

I'd be starting out in bars and small clubs, but I'd really like some info on taping in larger venues  large outdoor ampitheatres, 'coliseums', and arenas.

[setboy]

what kind of mics are you running? different mics, different setups.

[princecaspian]

As posted in the thread title, I'm a prospective taper, so I don't have any mics that I would use for taping.

What I'm looking for is common mic setups and placement. I understand that they will vary depending on the mics, the venue, etc.


...but I would be using 2 factory matched cardioid capsules for what it's worth. Small diaphragm.

[J.Maye]

It all depends, but an overall go-to method would be to point em at the stacks and try to get a few feet above head height. That'll cut it the vast majority of the time.

[page]

It all depends, but an overall go-to method would be to point em at the stacks and try to get a few feet above head height. That'll cut it the vast majority of the time.

I'll second that, it's a nice start.

If your stealth taping, thats a whole different ball game, and your mic choice and configuration are dependent on that more then what works well. If you're allowed to recorder the band and can do so openly, then you have more options (and less stress or things to worry about). Add to that, we all prefer different things (I personally don't like wide spacings and narrow angles, while some here don't like wider angles and less spacing which is what I prefer), so I'm not sure if there *is* a go-to configuration that works well until you know what you like. After all, your taping for yourself first and foremost unless you have friends who you are going to bat for.

If your *not* stealth taping, or your interested in opening taping and moving into stealth (which I think is a better idea then just starting at the stealth stage), then consider posting where your generally located and meet up with some other tapers in the area to get an idea of what to look for, what gear might work well for clubs in your area, that sort of thing. Generally, there is at least one person generally near everywhere in America (and some are located aboard) that knows what they are doing and are willing to help explain stuff to someone new if the newbie isn't a peckerhead (most of the time they aren't).

One other thing, if your considering starting out, then most people would procure a basic setup such as the Sound-Pro minis, or Church-Audio minis (well, I guess all he makes are minis, but statement stands), cause blowing the sort of coin that some around here do just to find out your not interested in dealing with some of the quirks of the hobby is unfortunate to say the least.

This post was constructed over the course of a general discussion (in person) and then cut/pasted into some semblance of order. If something doesn't flow or make sense, sorry.

edit: fixed pronoun typo

[princecaspian]

Thanks J! Just what I'm looking for.

Like rhinowing said, higher is better (generally)? How high is too high/overkill?

[page]

Thanks J! Just what I'm looking for.

Like rhinowing said, higher is better (generally)? How high is too high/overkill?

Line-array systems, I wouldn't run more then 8.5'-9' up (and I'd prefer 7' in this case)
General "blast-o stacks", I'd keep it under 12' unless you have a specific reason to go higher (venue demands to avoid blocking sight lines for example). Your towing a stand specifically made for that if you go above 13' (generally).

edit: added the preference on line-arrays.

[princecaspian]

Yeah, I won't be stealth taping. I'll probably just be taping local concerts, with bands who have allow taping. Once I get good at it, I might tape a few Phish shows if I can, but that's a little farther down the road from now.

One other thing, if your considering starting out, then most people would procure a basic setup such as the Sound-Pro minis, or Church-Audio minis (well, I guess all he makes are minis, but statement stands), cause blowing the sort of coin that some around here do just to find out your not interested in dealing with some of the quirks of the hobby is unfortunate to say the least.

I'm just looking into this. I was considering something from Church-Audio, or maybe a pair of Oktava mk012's. Would it be a bad idea to run those into TASCAM DP-02CF? It records at 44.1 kHz/16-bit which is what I think I want.

[princecaspian]

Let's see if I understand this right...

Line array = smaller/club venue?

[datbrad]

Let's see if I understand this right...

Line array = smaller/club venue?

A line array is a type of PA speaker. Typically, these are not used in clubs although there are some small compact line arrays being installed in some of the newer places, otherwise you would not encounter them except for large scale concert sound reinforcement.

The best advice I can give you as a person who has been taping for over 25 years is that it's a hobby you really have to learn how to do it by doing it, period . Just like you can't go on a sport fishing forum and ask a ton of questions about gear and technique and have them answered and your done, you cannot have someone save you all the time it takes to learn from taping experience by just handing you an instruction sheet.

There is a ton a great info already archived on this forum that you can search through to find out lessons others have learned, but there is no exact "go to" setup, stand height, etc. Each place you record in will have a unique set of conditions that will determine what is the best placement, and when you first start out taping, you will make these decisions incorrectly. You will have your stand too low sometimes and get too much crowd chatter, or you will run it too high and loose all the bass. You will point your mics at the stacks when you should have run a 90 degree pattern, or visa versa.

And the secret to taping is the acceptance that no matter how long you do the hobby, or how often, you will still learn hard lessons, make less than stellar recordings due to your own missteps, and wish you had done something differently. You will always strive to improve, knowing you will fall on your ass sometimes. This is taping, an expensive, frustrating, and occasionally incredibly rewarding hobby.

Enter at your own risk. 

[princecaspian]

Thanks for all the tips Brad!

Yeah, it is mainly going to be a hobby; I really enjoy listening back on shows I've been to (taper friendly ones at least), and my goal is to just have a nice archive of my own recordings of these.

Could you or anyone else clarify what a 90 degree pattern is? Thanks 

[Kevin Straker]

Subcards outside or up front in a large room=NOS
cards in the sweet spot up front=ORTF
cards stuck in a narrow room or further back=XY 90 degrees
subcards on stage or stage lip=NOS or XY 110 degrees

Placement in the room is critical. Let your ears tell you where the sound is best and set up there. If the PA is spread 50 feet apart, try to form the third point on an equilateral triangle. Set your stand 50 back from the stage in the center of the PA spread. Move forward and back a little from that spot and you should be able to locate the impact zone.

[princecaspian]

Subcards outside or up front in a large room=NOS
cards in the sweet spot up front=ORTF
cards stuck in a narrow room or further back=XY 90 degrees
subcards on stage or stage lip=NOS or XY 110 degrees

Thanks, but I have no idea what that means This is what I really need help with

[Kevin Straker]

Subcards outside or up front in a large room=NOS
cards in the sweet spot up front=ORTF
cards stuck in a narrow room or further back=XY 90 degrees
subcards on stage or stage lip=NOS or XY 110 degrees

Thanks, but I have no idea what that means This is what I really need help with

Check here:http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone%20University/StereoTechniques.aspx

....also, look at the TS archive under mic setup.

[princecaspian]

Wow... thanks Kevin! That should help

[paulbaptiste]

Agreed with what's said above.  Especially if it's a venue you've been to before, if not it's worth checking out the venue for a free or cheap show and just check the layout of the room, even talk to the owners about taping, some guys will restrict where you can tape from.  Example, i was in a long narrow room and he made me set up in the corner, terrible place to set up, wall right behind me, sound just bouncing around at all angles.  So it never hurts to check out a venue, small club ect. before hand.

That being said, even some of these small mics do a damn good job open taping.  I open tape and used to stealth with my 853 set up all the time, don't really stealth anymore, but they still sound great flying high on a stand.  So it's not a bad idea to get some AT853's or Church CA-14's that you can tape with in both open and stealth situations.  Because even if you upgrade mics for open taping, which i have, you'll still use those 853's, church mics along the line.  My 2 cents

Nick

[Belexes]

That being said, even some of these small mics do a damn good job open taping.  I open tape and used to stealth with my 853 set up all the time, don't really stealth anymore, but they still sound great flying high on a stand.  So it's not a bad idea to get some AT853's or Church CA-14's that you can tape with in both open and stealth situations.  Because even if you upgrade mics for open taping, which i have, you'll still use those 853's, church mics along the line.  My 2 cents

That's good advice.

I have my busman mics for open taping, but my 853's and CA-14's are great either for stealth or open taping when I don't want to hassle with getting the busman's out.

[jlykos]

but in general, higher=better

No.

Higher is not always better, *especially* if you are taping in small bars and clubs.  The stacks in these places are often angled so that the people standing on the floor receive the best sound, not a hypothetical race of people who are 10 feet tall.  If you run the mics too high in these places, you run the risk of capturing a very off-axis recording that may have abnormally exaggerated frequencies.

If you want to tape Phish shows in large amphitheaters and the like, then you can run quite a bit higher because the PA will distribute sounds to a wider space so you have some leeway in stand height.  The crowd is also much louder at arena shows so you will want to get above the din of the crowd.  Crowd noise is usually not such an issue at smaller clubs, at least the ones that I frequent.

I can't tell you any hard and fast rules, but I usually try to run ~7-8 feet in clubs and ~10-12 feet in arenas.  Also, if you are recording in poor-sounding clubs (which is where I do the majority of my taping), you may want to consider investing in a set of hypercardioid capsules because they will give you a more direct response in poor-sounding environments.

[rhinowing]

but in general, higher=better

No.

Higher is not always better, *especially* if you are taping in small bars and clubs.  The stacks in these places are often angled so that the people standing on the floor receive the best sound, not a hypothetical race of people who are 10 feet tall.  If you run the mics too high in these places, you run the risk of capturing a very off-axis recording that may have abnormally exaggerated frequencies.

If you want to tape Phish shows in large amphitheaters and the like, then you can run quite a bit higher because the PA will distribute sounds to a wider space so you have some leeway in stand height.  The crowd is also much louder at arena shows so you will want to get above the din of the crowd.  Crowd noise is usually not such an issue at smaller clubs, at least the ones that I frequent.

I can't tell you any hard and fast rules, but I usually try to run ~7-8 feet in clubs and ~10-12 feet in arenas.  Also, if you are recording in poor-sounding clubs (which is where I do the majority of my taping), you may want to consider investing in a set of hypercardioid capsules because they will give you a more direct response in poor-sounding environments.

I didn't say it was better, I said it generally is better

[yawnfactory]

clips can help when stealthing. get ones that can rotate, as some are stationary. this way, you can point mics a little more upright
when standing on the floor.

[princecaspian]

Thanks for the advice, jlykos!

yawnfactory - I won't be stealthing, but thanks

[page]

If you want to tape Phish shows in large amphitheaters and the like, then you can run quite a bit higher because the PA will distribute sounds to a wider space so you have some leeway in stand height.  The crowd is also much louder at arena shows so you will want to get above the din of the crowd.  Crowd noise is usually not such an issue at smaller clubs, at least the ones that I frequent.

the problem with that is if they start to tune their line-array properly for distance, then running too high gets an even worse effect then what you describe at the club (exaggerated frequencies) as you are catching sound that is intended to dissipate between the stacks and where it's angled, so you're catching more of some things earlier that dissipate more (and would sound proper further away).

I wouldn't run higher then 10' at Phish anymore for fear that they finally get their shit together and tune for distance, and I end up capturing sound in a different bracket of the audience.

ymmv I guess.