Topic: New to taping: Looking for Advice regarding Rig

[Photosynthesis]

Hi, I've always loved live recordings, and I would like to start taping myself. I mainly want to tape punk and acoustic bands, including basement shows. Since I have absolutely no idea where to start, I'd be grateful for any tips about gear, settings and the process of recording. I have a budget of 300-400 dollars. I'm thinking about getting CA-14's for mics and the Church Audio ST-9100 preamp.  I'm not quite sure about the recorder; the PCM M10 sounds nice, but I don't know if I can afford that with my budget. Any help is much appreciated!

[su6oxone]

CA-14 (or CA-11) + 9100 + M10 sounds like a solid first rig.  If you like switchable caps, you should also consider the AT853 (from Sound Pro usually, designated 'SP-CMC-4') which have cardioid/subcard/hypercard/omni caps you can switch between, but they tend to cost more so you would have to go used if you go this route. 

[NSL]

I use a Tascam DR-07 ( http://www.tascam.com/products/dr-07;9,12,3715,35.html )

I bought mine for $150 but if you look around you might be able to find it for cheaper.  It's pretty easy to use and small enough to fit in your pocket. 

[SmokinJoe]

This used mic/preamp combo plus the DR07 will make solid recordings, either undercover or in the open.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138008.0

[Belexes]

Big fan of CA-14 > ST-9100 > M10.  Save for the M10 if you can.

$200 new w/free case.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html 

[Photosynthesis]

Thanks for all of the replies! Seems like most people recommend the DR07 or the M10. How do these two compare? Also, if I got the M10, could I use the internal mics for acceptable recordings in the meantime before getting mics and preamp?

su6oxone, what advantages do the switchable caps have? I've read about cardiod and omni, but not about the other two. How much does the AT853 go for?

Oh, and how durable is everything? Especially if I bought used. I don't really have that much money, and I would like this rig to last.

[12milluz]

Thanks for all of the replies! Seems like most people recommend the DR07 or the M10. How do these two compare? Also, if I got the M10, could I use the internal mics for acceptable recordings in the meantime before getting mics and preamp?

su6oxone, what advantages do the switchable caps have? I've read about cardiod and omni, but not about the other two. How much does the AT853 go for?

Oh, and how durable is everything? Especially if I bought used. I don't really have that much money, and I would like this rig to last.

I have never used the M10, but my rig is AT853s into a DR-07. I just bought my mics for about $130 used from Guitar Center.  I like it! As for the caps: Hyper cardioid have a narrower pattern than cardioid and subcardioid is a pattern somewhere between omni and cardioid. It has a wider pattern than cardioid but is not a full omnidirectional pattern. Subcardiod caps for the AT853s are pretty hard to find nowadays as they do not make them anymore and a lot of people seem to like them. My whole rig with upgrades and everything is about $350 with stand, mounts and clips. I use the preamp in the DR-07 and use the AT8531 power supply with AA battery. If your budget allows, I would try to get a CA9100 as it would eliminate the need for a mic power supply as it is built in.
The one thing I can say about the M10 vs DR-07... you can get the DR-07 for $100 new at Guitar Center as its an old model. If I were to do it all again, I would have spent the extra $100 for the M10 as the DR-07 functions amazingly, but the internal mics are not any good and the unit is completely made of plastic and does feel cheap in my hand.

[su6oxone]

Thanks for all of the replies! Seems like most people recommend the DR07 or the M10. How do these two compare? Also, if I got the M10, could I use the internal mics for acceptable recordings in the meantime before getting mics and preamp?

su6oxone, what advantages do the switchable caps have? I've read about cardiod and omni, but not about the other two. How much does the AT853 go for?

Oh, and how durable is everything? Especially if I bought used. I don't really have that much money, and I would like this rig to last.

If you take reasonable care when using your gear they should last a good long time (many years).  As for the mic pickup pattern, you can read more about it in this nice summary from the high-end microphone maker, DPA: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/Lite.aspx#Directional/cardioid%20vs.%20omnidirectional%20microphones

It's not that easy to understand how exactly they work (unless you have some engineering background I guess), but the basic idea is:

Microphones can have different directional characteristics. Omnis that pick up the sound all around them, and cardioids that mainly pick up the sound directly in front of them. Other directional patterns are: bi-directional/figure 8, super cardioid, hyper cardioid, and wide cardioid.

Hypercards are generally more directional than cardioids (and for our purposes, will pickup less crowd noise) but perhaps less natural or 'full' sounding, whereas subcards are less directional (picking up more crowd noise) but considered to be more natural/full sounding. 

Re: the M10 vs DR07, I have used neither but considering the M10 is $199 brand new with a free Sony carrying case, it seems to be a steal based on the reviews of a lot of tapers who have it and love it.  Hope this helps and welcome to taping!

[acidjack]

^^^^ Agreed, and on a related note, I can't say I really recommend any small hypercards.  I did like having the option of omni or cardiod with the AT853s, but I never really liked what I recorded with those hypers.  Hypers that are very small are very tough to make.  If you only record far back in stadiums, maybe they are the way to go, but if you only record far in the back in stadiums, IMHO I'm not so sure it's worth taping. 

The AT853s are very nice mics... Used they go for around $200 or so depending on config. I had a slightly more expensive setup with the smaller SP-CMC-8 bodies with an adapter that allowed me to use the AT853 caps.  The advantage was for the omnis I could use the small bodies, but for cardiods, the larger ones.  Because, again, with more directional mics, smaller size does seem to deteriorate quality (generally). 

The Audix 1280 Church setup is also not a bad option. I think two cardiod caps would set you back about $250 new, plus $65 for the Church Audio custom cable + $40-60 for a battery box.  Many tapers use the fullsize mics and like them a lot.  They have a very different sound than the AT853s, for example.

[disco]

Thanks for all of the replies! Seems like most people recommend the DR07 or the M10. How do these two compare? Also, if I got the M10, could I use the internal mics for acceptable recordings in the meantime before getting mics and preamp?

su6oxone, what advantages do the switchable caps have? I've read about cardiod and omni, but not about the other two. How much does the AT853 go for?

Oh, and how durable is everything? Especially if I bought used. I don't really have that much money, and I would like this rig to last.

i have both recorders, and I prefer the m10. Sonically I don't think there is much difference, but in regard to user friendly features, the battery lasts much longer on the m10 and it has lights so show if things are clipping (and in each channel) vs the dr-07 has an overall clipping light. Not that it's real hard to check levels in the dark, but having those separate channel lights is nice. Both recorders are fairly different in regard to their menus/setup but both are easy to use. The m10 only takes micro or m2 cards, whereas the dr-07 will do full size sd cards. Overall I dont think you gain a ton from the m10 sonically but I really like their more user-friendly features, plus it feels much sturdier in your hand and can pass for a cell phone if you were trying to be sneaky to get it in (just talk on it)

[Photosynthesis]

How long do the batteries last respectively? Would both last a complete show?

The AT853s are probably a bit too expensive for me if they go for 200, especially since I want to get a preamp as well. But the CA-14s also have cardioid/omni caps, don't they?

The BH link has the M10 for 230, not 200. Was the 200 dollars just a limited offer, or will they offer the recorder at that price again?

[jbou]

But the CA-14s also have cardioid/omni caps, don't they?

The CA-14 comes in both omni and card patterns, but the caps are not interchangeable like the AT 853. The caps on the CA-14 cannont be changed so you have to buy one or the other, or both. Hope that helps.

[stevetoney]

How long do the batteries last respectively? Would both last a complete show?

The AT853s are probably a bit too expensive for me if they go for 200, especially since I want to get a preamp as well. But the CA-14s also have cardioid/omni caps, don't they?

The BH link has the M10 for 230, not 200. Was the 200 dollars just a limited offer, or will they offer the recorder at that price again?

One of the best features of the M10 is that the two AA alkaline batteries last 24 or more hours.  This is light years improvement over most handheld audio recorders.  In fact, it's best on the market.

The internal mics on the M10 are also a plus.  They're very good and I think that you can get good recordings with them while you decide what external gear you want, or if you might want to save a little bit for something a little more expensive.

Finally, you're right...unfortunately, B&H has just raised their price on this.  I just bought one for $200 and it was just delivered last Friday.  The price has gone back up...it's still a good deal though at $229 and they're still offering the free case rebate.  Perhaps a search for other electronics merchants will yield the lower price.

[rastasean]

tonedeaf is right about the battery, seems to be the best around. usually battery specs seem to be made up but not so for this recorder.

this is what someone else wrote about the batteries:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136665.msg1793784#msg1793784

The battery life on this thing is mind blowing!

I've recorded: a 30 minute speech on internal mics + 1 hour ambient noise, 3 hour Paul McCartney show, 1 hour DBT show, 1.25 hour Jimmy Cliff show, 1.25 hour My Morning Jacket show, 3 hour DMB show, and last night a 3 hour Rush show...and the battery meter just dropped it's FIRST BAR!

[acidjack]

^^ The 24hr batt life is a real key.  I almost never have to change my batteries... I think I'm getting 24+ in some cases.

[MSTaper]

I started with a CA-11 > STC-9000 > R-09 rig and loved it. Still use the R-09 with the Avantone CK-1s > US-5 > R-09 rig. Now using the Avantone CK-1 > Fostex FR-2LE or UA-5 > Fostex FR-2LE with my Darktrain interconnects.

I'd go with a STC_9100 (?) if I had to do it over again.

MSTaper

[Photosynthesis]

Alright, the battery life convinces me to go with a M10. Should I buy an SD/SDHC card or is the internal memory enough for a complete show? And Amazon offers it for 215. Is the rebate case worth the 15 extra dollars?

[stevetoney]

Warning:  M10 used MICRO SD card.  Just wanted to make sure you aware of that before ordering, but yes the internal memory is enough for a whole show.  Rule of thumb is at 24/48 you get one hour of recording per one GB.

[rastasean]

the internal memory will hold you over for now. at 24/48 you can get about 4 hours of audio.
http://sounddevices.com/calculator/

I like the case but I paid more for my m10 and the case was free. If you get a rebate, I think it would be worth it.

[bucsab12]

I just wanted to say something than another member wrote somewhere on the M10 thread;
It is a good idea to use an external memory card because the internal memory may stop working after using it multiple times.
Once it is dead, it will be probably very hard or even impossible to replace it.
That will eliminate the cross-memory recording option or in case you lose your card, you are stuck until you buy a new one.

Micro SD cards are really cheap right now and you can buy an 8 GB one for less than $20.
I think it will be a good idea to buy one and use it as your first memory option and only use the internal memory when you have to.

External cards can always be replaced for cheap...

[stevetoney]

I just wanted to say something than another member wrote somewhere on the M10 thread;
It is a good idea to use an external memory card because the internal memory may stop working after using it multiple times.
Once it is dead, it will be probably very hard or even impossible to replace it.
That will eliminate the cross-memory recording option or in case you lose your card, you are stuck until you buy a new one.

Micro SD cards are really cheap right now and you can buy an 8 GB one for less than $20.
I think it will be a good idea to buy one and use it as your first memory option and only use the internal memory when you have to.

External cards can always be replaced for cheap...

While I don't disagree with the concepts stated, I think this is an ultra conservative strategy.  I don't know of anyone that's reported that their internal memory stopped working on their M10 or D50.  Until those reports start flowing in, I'm not particularly concerned about it for mine.

[Photosynthesis]

What SD class would I want for recording?

[bucsab12]

I think class 4 will do the job. This is the card I'm using in my M10 and it has been working like a charm:

http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-microSDHC-Class-Memory-TS8GUSDHC6E/dp/B0026L7DG0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1282444389&sr=8-1

[Photosynthesis]

So I just bought the PCM-M10, and I wanted to ask about Sony's rebate. They ask me for a business type when I try to sign up for the rebate, but I don't have one. Is there any way to claim the rebate without doing that?

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

So I just bought the PCM-M10, and I wanted to ask about Sony's rebate. They ask me for a business type when I try to sign up for the rebate, but I don't have one. Is there any way to claim the rebate without doing that?

Just make something up.