Topic: THE BEST mic for recording live music with permission and space for mic-stand ?

[olli66]

I am looking for the best microphone to record concerts (classical, rock, etc.) given the fact that the band wants me to tape or I have the permission to tape and setup gear.
What would be the best mic / pre-amp / cables / recorder to do so? I'm talking of just two mics placed in the room. I am not thinking of recording each instrument with seperate mics...
Maybe the answer will be out of my price range so I'd be happy to get some recommendations in different price ranges.
Thanks so much!!

[ScoobieKW]

$350 on up, give us a budget range, and we'll make some recommendations.

[olli66]

my maximum budget would be $ 2000 but I'd like to know some in betweens ($1000 - $ 1500) if the differences are not that big
also just for knowing which would the best mic setup be regardless of the price? ;-)
THANKS

[noahbickart]

What's the best car for driving on small and large highways?
What's the best pen for writing?
What's the best gun for killing people?
What's the best novel for reading on the beach? in a hammock?
What's the best beer for quenching thirst?

There is no best anything. Human beings have opinions. Those opinions vary based on preference and experience. That's one of the things that makes living so interesting.

However, look into the Schoeps collette system. I'd start with the mk5 and mk41.

[olli66]

sure, different tastes...but when there is no budget limit? I think then the differences become much smaller?
When stealth recording shows often Church Audio mics get great reviews. Those are great mics for a good price but anyone with a good hearing I think will hear that MK4s for example just sound better.
So is it really a matter of taste? Maybe if the differences are just marginal but it seems to me there are mics who are far superior than others, no?

About my original question: So again Schoeps seem to be the way to go for "officially" recording. Really expensive though. What are the alternatives? I am pretty much surprised that these small mics get the job done. Whenever I see mics at classic concerts they are so much bigger...

[noahbickart]

sure, different tastes...but when there is no budget limit? I think then the differences become much smaller?
When stealth recording shows often Church Audio mics get great reviews. Those are great mics for a good price but anyone with a good hearing I think will hear that MK4s for example just sound better.
So is it really a matter of taste? Maybe if the differences are just marginal but it seems to me there are mics who are far superior than others, no?

About my original question: So again Schoeps seem to be the way to go for "officially" recording. Really expensive though. What are the alternatives? I am pretty much surprised that these small mics get the job done. Whenever I see mics at classic concerts they are so much bigger...

Some folks like Schoeps, some Neumann,  some DPA, some Sennheiser, some MBHO, others AKG.

Some folks think LD is better and others SD.

There is no single answer.

Is there a "best" recording of Beethoven's 3rd symphony? Or a "best" show by the Grateful dead? Best speaker to listen to? Nope!

Listen to recordings to see what you like. There is no other way.

[olli66]

man I love those Schoeps mics from all the recordings I heard but those were mainly done in stealth
for stealth recording I have myself Sennheiser MKE2 and CA-14 mics but for "official" recordings I have no recordings for comparison and since bigger mics can be used there will be other options then the mics I know for stealth recording...

[noahbickart]

man I love those Schoeps mics from all the recordings I heard but those were mainly done in stealth
for stealth recording I have myself Sennheiser MKE2 and CA-14 mics but for "official" recordings I have no recordings for comparison and since bigger mics can be used there will be other options then the mics I know for stealth recording...

Surf over to bt.etree.org and archive.org, enter microphone brand names into the search engine, and listen away.

[stevetoney]

First, I'd buy used from our yard sale from someone that has been a regular ts.com member because you'll get alot more value for your money. 

$2000 will get you the following...they'll all sound pretty darn good, but there is no best because that depends on what you like.

Mics
- Neumann km184 ($900 to $1200)
- AKG 460/CKx ($700 - $900)
- AKG 480/CKx ($900 - $1100)

Preamps
Oade or Busman Mod UA-5 ($200 - $250)
Aerco MP-2 ($700)
Sound Devices MixPre ($300 - 400 used)
Sound Devices USBPre2 ($600 used $850 new)

Cables
- 15 foot pair of Darktrain or Gakcables - $40 - $50

All-In-One Recorders (preamp and recorder is integrated)
- Marantz PMD-661 ($600 new $500 used)
- Oade or Busman Modded PMD-661 ($800 new, hard to find used)
- Tascam DR-680 ($600 new $500 used)
- Tascam DR100Mkii ($300 new)

Handheld recorder (if you get an external preamp)
- Sony PCM-M10 ($250 new)
- Roland R-05 ($250 new)
- Roland R-09HR ($200 used)
- Tascam DR2D $110 new)

[OOK]

First, I'd buy used from our yard sale from someone that has been a regular ts.com member because you'll get alot more value for your money. 

$2000 will get you the following...they'll all sound pretty darn good, but there is no best because that depends on what you like.

Mics
- Neumann km184 ($900 to $1200)
- AKG 460/CKx ($700 - $900)
- AKG 480/CKx ($900 - $1100)

Preamps
Oade or Busman Mod UA-5 ($200 - $250)
Aerco MP-2 ($700)
Sound Devices MixPre ($300 - 400 used)
Sound Devices USBPre2 ($600 used $850 new)

Cables
- 15 foot pair of Darktrain or Gakcables - $40 - $50

All-In-One Recorders (preamp and recorder is integrated)
- Marantz PMD-661 ($600 new $500 used)
- Oade or Busman Modded PMD-661 ($800 new, hard to find used)
- Tascam DR-680 ($600 new $500 used)
- Tascam DR100Mkii ($300 new)

Handheld recorder (if you get an external preamp)
- Sony PCM-M10 ($250 new)
- Roland R-05 ($250 new)
- Roland R-09HR ($200 used)
- Tascam DR2D $110 new)

Don't forget about Nevaton Mics.... you can find them used usually for a good price. 

[DiggerinVA]

Here is an opinion that will maybe shake this up a bit. What you want to match up is how the Room sounds and distance from what you are recording. Here in lies the answer for multi-patterns and type (LD vs SD). The Manufacture is a flavor sort of to me though that flavor does fit with the two parameters I listed above.

[Chimney Top]

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153308.0


Here is a list of portable recording devices for reference.

[olli66]

thanks guys for all the recommendations

@DiggerinVA: could you please xplain a little more?

[Duncan]

thanks guys for all the recommendations

@DiggerinVA: could you please xplain a little more?

You need to ask yourself a few questions

How much recording are you going to do
What will be the most common type of venue
Will the venues differ much  - small room with 100 people verses a big arena where you're sat 50 row from the sound source.

If you're only ever in a small room then you could get a mic that really works close to the sound source
If you are going to be way back you need a directional mic of some sort

Don't assume that because a mic is used stealth it's not the right mic for your open taping needs

You can stealth Schoeps mics but they are very popular for open taping

If you can afford to go the Schopes route you can't go wrong but you can get very good mics for a lot less.

If money was no object I'd get Schoeps CCM4s or CCM 5s or maybe CCM 41s and run them into my SD 722 (which I've already got)

Note: you don't need a SD 722 but they are very easy to use and look good :-)

Even if I had this rig I'd still stealth because it's easier and gives more versatility IMO

You do know that asking a simple question like this here is like opening a vat of worms?

Cheers

Duncan

[stevetoney]

thanks guys for all the recommendations

@DiggerinVA: could you please xplain a little more?

Some small diaphragm (SD) mics don't offer variable polar pattens.  For example, the KM184 is a fixed cardioid mic.  Other SD mics offer variable patterns by virtue of the fact that you can change the capsules out.  An example is the schoeps collette seris or the AKG460 or 480.  In that case, you can change the pattern to match the recording situation you encounter at the venue.  If you can record from the stage lip, use a wider subcardiod pattern.  If you're in the back of the room, choose a narrow hypercardioid pattern.  Some of the large diaphragm mics (Studio Projects LSD2 comes to mind) have mulitple patterns built into the microphone...just by rotating a selector switch you can change the mics polar pattern.

So again, when you ask 'what is the best mic' there are many answers to that question.  As diggerinVA points out, 'best' can refer to various manufacturers in a price range, which tends to apply to the sound or flavor of a mic and this tends to be a more subjective personal thing...or it can apply to what sound quality it provides again perhaps somewhat subjective, or it can refer to how versatile the mic is, which is less subjective and gets to whether the mic can provide for pattern selectability. 

What you end up getting is all a function of what you're after.

[DiggerinVA]

My point is the room has it's sound and how much of the room sound you want is part of the equation. LD's have a habit of grabbing that more so than SD's. (there is a thread that describes these general differences somewhere in this forum). There are the pattern choices as well which affect this the amount of the room. Tonal balance is more of a manufacturer's color, at least that is what I have found to generally be true (yes they will many times have that red herring).

One rule is you get what you pay for.

[stevetoney]

Regarding the sound of a room, some rooms have more reflective or reverberant walls than others so yeah I understand the point about 'some rooms have a sound'.  But I agree with Jon...it's not necessarily about picking a mic for a room...it's about picking a polar pattern and a distance from the stage to get the sound you want on the recording.  In that respect, LD vs SD...potato vs potahtoe.  Our job is to optimize the ratio of sound coming from the walls (and audience) to the sound coming directly from the stage to achieve the results that we want.  Some people want less reflective sound than others so you adjust either the pattern or the distance, but I've never read that SDs, as a rule, allow you to acheive a side rejection more than LDs.   

[DiggerinVA]

Actually all rooms at least have an effect on on the sound. How full the room is has it's effects as well. Just ask the people who run sound.

So we can read the spec's and look at the patterns and tell how the microphone is going to sound? I do believe that there are variations in how those patterns are derived. I may be wrong. So for me those sheets are just hints as to how the component will preform.

My experience is My LD (C38B) pattern is a bit wider than most SD's and sound fuller, even though the spec's don't support it. I also learned you can not read spec sheets with consumer audio equipment a predict how said component will sound with other components.


Here is a thought. High Fidelity is the recreation of a musical event at a later date and time. At least that is the definition I was taught.

[bombdiggity]

man I love those Schoeps mics from all the recordings I heard but those were mainly done in stealth
for stealth recording I have myself Sennheiser MKE2 and CA-14 mics but for "official" recordings I have no recordings for comparison and since bigger mics can be used there will be other options then the mics I know for stealth recording...

Let your ears be your guide and let your experience shed light on future choices. 

Open/stealth is really just a mounting option.  The same mics can be used in either mode with greater or lesser degrees of difficulty. 

The best mic is a matter of opinion (the opiner's taste) and appropriateness (how well suited its character is to the setting in which it will be used).  Many (most?) here have several mics or capsules to provide the flexibility to adapt their tools to what they expect will work best in each setting (based on room, musicians, location, operating mode).  Estimating all that in advance is a significant part of the craft. 

You already have two mics that will give you fairly different results.  The CA-14's can use both card and omni caps, which provides more options. 

Most full size mics (as opposed to miniaturized clip-ons) will provide richer low end response.  Whether you want that may depend on what sorts of shows you intend to use them at.  Investing in some full size mics might be a good idea if after thinking about when and where you're likely to use them you can narrow down to some you like that should shine in the applications you expect.  Listening to what others have gotten (especially with bands or rooms you're familiar with) should help. 

[paulbaptiste]

For all in ones  I'd throw in a Busman Marantz PMD 660 an often overlooked amazing sounding deck that can be found here in the yard for way less than its worth, and if you can get one around that 3-400 range they've been selling for I don't think there is a better bang for you buck recording device IMO in the "Lower" price range

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

1. Listen to various sources AT THE VENUES YOU'LL BE GOING TO. Note what you like and don't like about them.
2. Spend as much as you can on your mics.
3. Decide if you want to (and have the option to) run more than 2 channels. If you record small bands it's likely you'll be able to grab a SBD patch. SBD+Mics=

FWIW I have about $2G's into my rig for open taping. I'm very happy with it. The only thing I'm considering adding at this point is a Grace V3.

My open rig is:

Beyer CK930 > Tinybox > M10 (2 channel recording)
or
Beyer CK930 > Tascam DR-680 (When I'm running more than 2 channels).

One nice thing about my setup is that it's possible to run open or stealth with it (although I've yet to run stealth with the CK930's...but it can be done).

[olli66]

guys, thanks for all the replies!
I'm off to Stockholm now (Springsteen), will digg more into everything that's been said here once I'm back...

[cashandkerouac]

lots of good feedback and some excellent equipment options to choose from.  however, your taping location will influence the quality of your recordings more than anything else.  the best mics in the world won't save you if you're in a krappy spot to record the show.  i've made some stellar recordings with $300 mics in a great location, and have come away with some real dogs using $2,000 mics in a krappy spot.   

[illconditioned]

I wonder if the safest bet might be a mid-side rig.  You can basically "point and shoot", and then do processing is post to choose the amount of "room" that you get.

The added benefit of this setup is that you can also use it for other applications like video, ambient recording, etc.

There are a wide range of options, from Sony ECM-907, Shure VP88, all the way up to something like Sanken.  If you are willing to use a separate fig 8 mic, there are even more options.

  Richard

[F.O.Bean]

I'd go with mk41s for around $1,200 and an NBob active cable for around $450-500 and then you just need a TinyBox preamp and a Sony m10 recorder for a total of like $2,200