Topic: V3/Oade-warm-mod-UA5 comparison

[Nick Culbreth]

something tells me that a good chunk of that 1500 bucks is attributed to the Grace name and not the product itself.

i'm not a fan of the v3 but i'm not sure i'd agree w/ that statement.  they sound great if you like transparency and they're by far the best designed box available.

[Brian]

i never said i wasn't a fan of the V3 and i know you never said I wasn't. IT'S A GREAT UNIT. Top notch design and when put in the right situation it flat out smokes in terms of sound!  However i'd love to be able to see a spec sheet of just how much it cost to put it all together including parts and man hours. highly doubt it comes close to $1500.

[Tim]

i never said i wasn't a fan of the V3 and i know you never said I wasn't. IT'S A GREAT UNIT. Top notch design and when put in the right situation it flat out smokes in terms of sound!  However i'd love to be able to see a spec sheet of just how much it cost to put it all together including parts and man hours. highly doubt it comes close to $1500.

Research and design is very and they had to come up with their own dithering algorithm (ANSR) so I'd guess that's where the cost comes in.

plus the man's got to make a living!

[Craig T]

However i'd love to be able to see a spec sheet of just how much it cost to put it all together including parts and man hours. highly doubt it comes close to $1500.

Oh, there's no doubt!  Just a wild guess, but maybe $600?  Even more shocking might be how much it costs it make a UA5 - $100?

[pfife]

how about build quality and metering?  

MIGHT, and I mean MIGHT, be able to solve the metering problem for around $50... but you are right, the meters do suck...

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=8806

~AP

[chuckcage]

The biggest point this comparison made to me is that the UA-5 is a great sounding piece of gear, and it's definitely going in my upgrade path.  I'll be able to afford it as a replacement for my AD-20 long before a V3.

When it comes to ultra-high-end gear, it's always a question of how far into diminishing returns you're willing to go.  The $750 upgrade from cheap mic > MD to C1000s > AD-20 > NJB3 made a VAST difference for me.  Another $750 mic upgrade will again get me a VAST difference.  Now it looks like $525 for a UA-5 would get me a little more.  

The place I've always found this interesting is in cables.  Ok, different story for actives, but is a $200 set of cables really going to sound that much better than my $60 set, or my $30 Neutrik/Canare star quad customs?  I bet if I did a comparison like the one above not one person could tell me the difference.  

I missidentified it mainly, I think, because I've only heard a couple of V3 shows.  (Shows you how new I am, yeah?)  

This comparison really reflects positively on both pieces of gear, yeah?

Chuck

[wboswell]

i never said i wasn't a fan of the V3 and i know you never said I wasn't. IT'S A GREAT UNIT. Top notch design and when put in the right situation it flat out smokes in terms of sound!  However i'd love to be able to see a spec sheet of just how much it cost to put it all together including parts and man hours. highly doubt it comes close to $1500.

Parts and man hours are not a good way to measure a unit's retail cost.  A unit's marketing plan reflect years of research and design which must be accounted for in a dollar sense.  The Grace Co. may only hope to break even on the unit cost (R&D, parts, labor) on year 3 of the unit's production.  If parts and labor were the only thing you were taking into consideration in purchasing a unit, the engineers would be working pro bono...

[marc0789]

There's a lot of shit that'll make good tapes. When I upgraded from nak 100>d8 to 481>dmic-20 in '99 I noticed an unbelievable difference. And everything since has been 1-2% maybe, sometimes DOWN. If we weren't such dorks we wouldn't care. It's like going from scratch to slightly under par. Both are good, one is incrementally better, but it's noticeable. Imo.

[Brian]

how much R&D can really go into a 2 channel field pre/ad. seems like a simple machine to me barring the invention of their own dithering algorithm maybe...If you are saying it took Grace Co. *years* of R&D i find that to be ridiculous on their part. It's their own fault for not being able to break even on that unit.  But i guess it could justify the price...

Then i again i don't own my own high-end audio gear company now do i, so i don't really know anything other than the end results of the product by listening to the tapes it makes. guess i'll just shut my trap for now.

[Tim]

good points Chuck!

It really has only been in the last 1.5 years or so that the ability to make really high quality tapes on a reasonable budget has come about. When the minime and v3 came out the prices dropped on the ad500's and ad1000's making them much more accessible. The mod'd ua5's are another (relatively) low cost but good sounding alternative.

As for mics the adk's have certainly taken the scene by storm and with good reason.. Mike has sent me some truly amazing tapes.

While a few years ago you could make some decent tapes on a budget I think now you can make really first class, top notch tapes on a budget!

[Brian]

While a few years ago you could make some decent tapes on a budget I think now you can make really first class, top notch tapes on a budget!

agreed,
excellent points, Tim.  

[Craig T]

If we weren't such dorks we wouldn't care.

no shit.  

ok, on that note, I've spent too much time on this board today...

[wboswell]

how much R&D can really go into a 2 channel field pre/ad. seems like a simple machine to me barring the invention of their own dithering algorithm maybe...If you are saying it took Grace Co. *years* of R&D i find that to be ridiculous on their part. It's their own fault for not being able to break even on that unit.  But i guess it could justify the price...

Then i again i don't own my own high-end audio gear company now do i, so i don't really know anything other than the end results of the product by listening to the tapes it makes. guess i'll just shut my trap for now.

I don't own one either, so I may be completely wrong here.  However, a good project has foresight, and Grace has one.  As far as I know, the 316 was the first production unit, which turned into the v2 ->v3.  However, I have mid 80's GD tapes with a grace p/s in the lineage.  So, this thing has been in the works for a long time...  and I would assume there are other incarnations in the future.  Hopefully, Mike Grace is doing well and will continue to present us with solid gear and affordable costs.

[MattD]

how much R&D can really go into a 2 channel field pre/ad. seems like a simple machine to me barring the invention of their own dithering algorithm maybe...If you are saying it took Grace Co. *years* of R&D i find that to be ridiculous on their part. It's their own fault for not being able to break even on that unit.  But i guess it could justify the price...

Then i again i don't own my own high-end audio gear company now do i, so i don't really know anything other than the end results of the product by listening to the tapes it makes. guess i'll just shut my trap for now.

To do what any of these companies did requires a sizable chunk of change invested in R&D. We're talking on the tens-to-hundreds of thousands magnitude. I don't know if any of these were multimillion dollar investments, but to say it's a lot for a specialized company isn't too tough. As far as I know, there were ZERO 24/192 capable *portable* boxes out there when the V3 came out. That means they didn't exactly build off of anyone's design on the digital side and they modified their own design on the analog side. As for ANSR, the whole point is that it is NOT an algorithm. As far as I know this is entirely unique to dithering methods.

Since I am going through some of the agony of development with Metric Halo's products, I see exactly how hard it is to do some of this stuff. It's also why I've become very skeptical about new products ... especially those that relate to computer interfaces.

-Matt

[nic]

question about the d-mod UA-5:

while recording, is it normal for a slight digi-static to be introduced while adjusting mic gain?