Topic: Mic for loud rock shows

[Red Boink]

check out the crown cm700 pair...

[Mr.Scully]

OK, before I buy anything, I I tried the SP-CMC-8 omnis at a Rammstein + Deathstars gig and I'm VERY unhappy about the result. I tried both cardioids and omnis (switched them during the set while keeping the same settings on my Edirol) and here are the raw (totally unedited) samples. (I was on the "balcony" so I know I would normally use cardioids but I just wanted to test the omnis anyway).

SP-CMC-8 cardioids:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-cardioid.mp3
- the sound is not clear but there's no distortion so remastering would help and I could get a decent VG recording - I still wouldn't be happy about it but it would sound at least acceptable

SP-CMC-8 omnis:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-omni.mp3
- heavy distortion on bass drum (and drums/bass in general) - why is that? Nothing was clipped, the sound didn't reach the peaks at all... (I set my Edirol volume level to 50).

My setup was SP-CMC-8 (Audio Technica ES943) -> SP-SPSB-8 (bass roll off switched off) -> Edirol R-09 HR (line-in). Was I supposed to set the low frequency limiter on the battery box? Would I get a significantly better result with NO distortion or not? I'm confused because with cardioids I never get any distortion...

[darktrain]

OK, before I buy anything, I I tried the SP-CMC-8 omnis at a Rammstein + Deathstars gig and I'm VERY unhappy about the result. I tried both cardioids and omnis (switched them during the set while keeping the same settings on my Edirol) and here are the raw (totally unedited) samples. (I was on the "balcony" so I know I would normally use cardioids but I just wanted to test the omnis anyway).

SP-CMC-8 cardioids:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-cardioid.mp3
- the sound is not clear but there's no distortion so remastering would help and I could get a decent VG recording - I still wouldn't be happy about it but it would sound at least acceptable

SP-CMC-8 omnis:
http://www.queenconcerts.com/tmp/deathstars-omni.mp3
- heavy distortion on bass drum (and drums/bass in general) - why is that? Nothing was clipped, the sound didn't reach the peaks at all... (I set my Edirol volume level to 50).

My setup was SP-CMC-8 (Audio Technica ES943) -> SP-SPSB-8 (bass roll off switched off) -> Edirol R-09 HR (line-in). Was I supposed to set the low frequency limiter on the battery box? Would I get a significantly better result with NO distortion or not? I'm confused because with cardioids I never get any distortion...

To me it sounds like this is in a arena and you have the mics too low on your body and far away which unfortunately is what you get, omnis generally not great indoors in those settings, I don't necesarliy hear distortion, you just need to run the omni file through a high pass filter and that will tone down the bass. I learned years ago to get those mics up high and in general FOB triangulated with the stacks. Obviously that can vary but its a starting place. Once i started mounting mics high my recordings were amazingly more consistant and better, any further info send pm's.

[Mr.Scully]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

So as long as I have the mics on my shoulders, I will never be able to get a really good recording? It seems to me that I have to use the cardioids to be sure the result is *at least* good. Maybe I'll buy and try the CA-14 cardioids...

[darktrain]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

So as long as I have the mics on my shoulders, I will never be able to get a really good recording? It seems to me that I have to use the cardioids to be sure the result is *at least* good. Maybe I'll buy and try the CA-14 cardioids...

I am next to securtiy all the time and never worry about them anymore, i have and many others have found ways to get the mics up high, without giving up anything specific use some kind of hat or croakie solution and be creative, hell i have short hair and have found as way to keep em up high and keep wires hidden, even at shoulder height your mics have no clear path to the music if you are in the crowd, you can pull good recordings with shoulder mount but those for me tended to be when i was in the first row of the balcony where there was a clear path or directly in front of a stack

[Mr.Scully]

OK, so I will get a hat :-) But still the question remains - would a hat make such a significant difference when using the omnis? Or are the cards the only way to go in these big indoor arenas with poor acoustics?

[darktrain]

OK, so I will get a hat :-) But still the question remains - would a hat make such a significant difference when using the omnis? Or are the cards the only way to go in these big indoor arenas with poor acoustics?

In general if you are pretty close to the stacks then omnis ok but most people use cards indoors, they tend to cut down on the ambient noise in enclosed spaces, i personally on use cards or hypercards but thats just me

[Mr.Scully]

OK, I've contacted Chris Church, perhaps it's time to test his CA-14 cardioids :-)

[darktrain]

OK, I've contacted Chris Church, perhaps it's time to test his CA-14 cardioids :-)

the mics you have are actually very good and will do a nice job, but you need to get them up higher, trust me, been there, and i have used the mics you have as well, i don't think moving to the church mics will change anything(nothing against them)

[Church-Audio]

Hi guys,

for many years I was using the Sony ECM-719 mic which was great for capturing the overall "atmosphere" (the recording had enough bass and you felt like you were at the concert) but the sound wasn't so clear so I was looking for replacement here in this forum. At first I looked at the Church Audio mics but I didn't like the sound samples in the archive, the sound wasn't clear either. Then I found Sound Professionals and bought equipment from them - SP-SPSB-8 battery box and SP-CMC-8 (ES943) cardioids (I bought the omnis as well) + Edirol R-09HR. The sound from the cardiods is clean (and great for folk, classical and other styles of music I don't listen to) BUT lacks power, bass... it's okay but it just doesn't feel right. (I also tried the omnis once but the recording was distorted although I'm quite sure I used the battery box). And that's even though I'm always using the battery box with bass roll off switched off.

So here I am again... searching for new mics :-) They have to be small (stealth), preferably cardioids (to avoid capturing all that audience noise) and must sound "powerful". Is there anything you can recommend to me? I usually record loud rock/punk shows (mostly indoors) and I definitely don't want to pay more than $400 (the less the better, of course).

I also remember one sentence that somebody told me a few years ago: "Phantom power is the absolute best and only way to go." Does it just avoid clipping and overloading OR can it improve the sound itself as well?

Thanks

You will hear good samples of recordings and bad ones. You can say the same thing about any mic. Like I said before placement sound at the venue will be the biggest factors in getting a good recording.

Chris

[hi and lo]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

As Darktrain points out, different gear will not help as this is your biggest problem. Your  tapes will continue to disappoint until you get over this fear and while I know it's a hard thing to do, I assure you that very rarely is security in-tune enough to identify any giveaways you might be displaying. There are many ways to be discrete and have your microphones at shoulder level or higher; if this can't be accomplished then my personal opinion is that you should simply leave the mics at home and enjoy the show.

Your samples sound exactly as expected. The Omni's needed some roll-off while the cardioids are simply suffering from distant seats and poor body placement. I don't see a pair of CA-14's sounding any different.

[acidjack]

datktrain - yes, you're absolutely right, I had them quite low but we're talking about stealth taping here. I was very close to the security guy so I had no choice. It's always like that. In best case I can have the mics on my shoulders.

As Darktrain points out, different gear will not help as this is your biggest problem. Your  tapes will continue to disappoint until you get over this fear and while I know it's a hard thing to do, I assure you that very rarely is security in-tune enough to identify any giveaways you might be displaying. There are many ways to be discrete and have your microphones at shoulder level or higher; if this can't be accomplished then my personal opinion is that you should simply leave the mics at home and enjoy the show.

Your samples sound exactly as expected. The Omni's needed some roll-off while the cardioids are simply suffering from distant seats and poor body placement. I don't see a pair of CA-14's sounding any different.

x2  This is the reality of taping.  As in a lot of things, there actually aren't compromises if you want to do it right.  Either a) ask bands for permission (you'd be surprised how many will do it, even if they aren't "jam bands") or b) get over the fear and take the risk.  You could put some $3500 mics on but place them poorly and it won't be any better.

[adrianf74]

x2  This is the reality of taping.  As in a lot of things, there actually aren't compromises if you want to do it right.  Either a) ask bands for permission (you'd be surprised how many will do it, even if they aren't "jam bands") or b) get over the fear and take the risk.  You could put some $3500 mics on but place them poorly and it won't be any better.

Exactly.  The best sounding mics located in the worst-sounding spot in a venue will sound terrible.  There is a lot of trial and error involved.  The CA-14 cards sound as good as any card upto about 3-4x its price and it's relatively small considering.  I still use it because there is nothing that comes close in size and or ease of use (battery box/small preamp only) but only when I can't get close enough to the stacks (larger clubs, arenas, amphitheatres, etc.).  You won't be disappointed in trying them out.  The CA-14 omnis are also excellent value for the money.  I only upgraded to a pair of 4061's because the price was right (and they're a lot smaller).

[fandelive]

Cards are equally as great in said situations and reject more of the negatives that show up with omnis'
IE Crowd, or shitty room sound.
My point being you would use cards in a number of more situations than you would omnis. Shitty sounding rooms
rowdy crowds

What he said.
I'd only use omnis as a second gear (run by a second taper from a different spot in the venue) to do a matrix in post and add some more of the bass the cards lack of.
I attended a very shitty sounding concert yesterday (from my spot at least - balcony !!!). Couldn't hear the singer most of the time, guitars were too loud in the mix and the bass reverb was predominent.
Thank God, I used cardiods so that my recording doesn't sound natural

As for your Rammstein samples, Soundprofessionals are selling the same capsules in both low and high sensivity mod.
Check yours. You have to use low sensivity mics to record loud hard rock shows.

[F.O.Bean]

I havent stealthed in a LONG TIME, but even when I didnt have longass hair, I would wear a hoodie indoors/outdoors if the weather was kinda cold outside. You just have to be creative. If your FOB/DFC, I have rarely EVER seen security up that close in a crowd At least for me thats what worked!