Topic: Ethical question

[splumer]

Not really sure where to put this, but since it involves computer-based activities, I put it here. My question is, some shows I tape have long pauses between songs with nothing going on. DMB is one of the best/worst for this. Something 2 - 3 minutes between songs, to the point where I've edited some shows I've downloaded from 3 CD's to 2 just by cutting down on the pre-show waving to the crowd and cutting out the between song... well, nothing! OK, so college chicks yelling "Dave, I want to have your babies!"

So is this ethical? Do people frown on this? I mean, in a way, it destroys the integrity of the show, since it no longer accurately represents what actually happened. On the other hand, it makes the show a lot more listenable. One of my big complaints about DMB live is that the long pauses between songs kills the energy level. Cutting out the pauses (seamlessly, I might add) keeps the energy level and often reduces the number of discs needed for a show. Is that cool, or should I not do this?

Thanks!

[Patrick]

This goes against every law of archiving music, but I've been told before that music is "for listening and not for archiving," so it's really up to you.  I personally don't do it, but I've seen other people track their shows like this.

[greenone]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

[setboy]

I don't do it, but wouldn't care if someone did. Just as long as all of the music is there, i'm fine.

I some of the old dead tapes of had this happen to them and it really doesn't bug me that much.

[taperj]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

+1

I understand the getting it on 2 cd's instead of 3 thing but I think I would only do that for a cd to toss in the car or such and leave the whole show on harddrive or a separate cd set. Any 'archive' (cd or file based)should be the full monte in my opinion. I wouldn't distribute it without the crowd tracks.

[page]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

+1

I understand the getting it on 2 cd's instead of 3 thing but I think I would only do that for a cd to toss in the car or such and leave the whole show on harddrive or a separate cd set. Any 'archive' (cd or file based)should be the full monte in my opinion. I wouldn't distribute it without the crowd tracks.

The number of people who burn CDs anymore is paltry, but still out there. I track mine as separate tracks but it's all there.

[rastasean]

If it was that big of a gap with no playing, I think having it on a separate track is the way to do it. However if you don't keep it at all, I don't think anyone will find out or care. Do live recordings put out by bands have such long pauses in between songs? Probably not because the average listener wants music and doesn't want the roar of the crowd.

Let's ask another question for those that always (or almost always) keep the archiving perspective.
What would you REMOVE audio from the recording? How bad does it have to get before you remove something?

[rowjimmytour]

For DMB I would edit the crowd out and the music but for almost any one else I would just make the banter/crowd self track

[runonce]

I say do it...but be gentle...and make the cuts transparent.

I almost always do this for club bands...no sense in filling the archive up with hours of silence. And it cuts down on the number of time my girlfriend asks "what happened to the music?" or "is that over?" - when its just between songs.

For a big show, major band kind of deal, I would tend to leave them in - especially when there are multiple sources - but most of those kinds of bands have some production values and keep things moving...

Surely the Dead's collection suffers from this - being done on the fly no less...(guys pausing between songs) It makes some show's pacing sound un-natural.

[kirk97132]

I almost always leave crowd noise in. If anything, I'd track them separately so that people can remove them if they choose, but that's what the skip button is for.

Which lead to an old on going discussion a friend and I have had.   He has 3 cd changers that hold 200 cd's each.  They are tied into a jukebox program he wrote that runs on the computer.  During parties the laptop sits out and people go in and select stuff.  Then the random play button is hit to mix things up.....NOW, with audience chatter as a track you get times when that is what is played.  So is it right or is it wrong?  Our conclusion posted way below




























We decided that it's a party and yes the between song banter etc gets tracked as long as it is over one minute in length.  Makes for some interesting listens while everyone is all partied up.....You might hear how a song is based on this book or whatever then the next thing you hear has nothing to do with the track of talking.   

[boojum]

Unless the in-between banter of the band is interesting I cut it.  The crowd is there as ears.  Most of what the crowd is hollering, well, is not very interesting.  All I want is the playing, intros and exits and the banter, if it is funny or interesting. 

[keytohwy]

I keep it in the interest of archiving the whole thing.  But I don't burn CDs, I just archive the FLACs.  I export into iTunes friendly format, sometimes AAC, sometimes ALAC.  Either way, you can go into iTunes and get info on the file.  For tracks that have just audience, like maybe between the last tune and the encore, you can check the box to skip when shuffling.  So if you are randomly listening to tunes, then these tracks will just get skipped.  Nice. 

If you choose to not to track out these gaps, you can still go into iTunes and check the box for start and stop time.  So, you'll get the whole song in iTunes and any burned CDs (but I'd recommend burning elsewhere), but the song will only play in the time boundaries you establish.  Again, great for cutting out the last 2 mins of a song when it really is just the encore cheering, etc.

Hope that helps.  Not sure if other apps offer these capabilities.  These preferences do move with the tunes to iPods so playback in the car, for instance, adheres to the same rules.

keytohwy

[setboy]

The way i see it is if you cut some stuff out for seeding/your own listing just be sure to make an archive copy of the whole thing.

[runonce]

The way i see it is if you cut some stuff out for seeding/your own listing just be sure to make an archive copy of the whole thing.

....this is a "situational ethic"...

Lets not all be blinded by the politics of grateful dead taping...

If nobody says a damn thing for three minutes and there's only 50 people there...CUT!!!

Odd, talky, artists like Jerry Joseph still demand the the respect of leaving it all in...

Dopey jambands changing a string...CUT!

[setboy]

The way i see it is if you cut some stuff out for seeding/your own listing just be sure to make an archive copy of the whole thing.

....this is a "situational ethic"...

Lets not all be blinded by the politics of grateful dead taping...

If nobody says a damn thing for three minutes and there's only 50 people there...CUT!!!

Odd, talky, artists like Jerry Joseph still demand the the respect of leaving it all in...

Dopey jambands changing a string...CUT!

 politics of grateful dead taping?  The tapes i have that have been cut up the most are grateful dead tapes and not just because people were pausing in between songs ......

[stevetoney]

I've long since gotten over trying to think what I do is "archiving". 

Most of the time, my motives for taping are personal. 

OTOH, back in 1997 I recorded two blues artists that both passed away within six months of shows that I recorded.  It's a life blessing that these recordings exist now. 

Also, lots of bands I record don't have many high quality live recordings that have been made of themselves. 

So, I always keep it in the back of my mind that there are multiple reasons why I record.  I do feel that 'archiving' is one of the things I do.

[goodcooker]

I cut anything that doesn't have sound coming from the stage. If there is considerable between song banter or even noodling I'll leave it on the end of the previous track. You can always skip to the next track if you don't want to hear it. Crowd noise, silence, long drawn out tuning and other stuff gets cut.

[mountaintaper]

I have actually been asked by a few local bands to cut out any long pauses between songs before uploading.

[jagraham]

cutting out silence/crowd for an upload or to fit on CD is OK in my book.  however, i do think part of this hobby is archiving as well as it is educational.  i think part of the whole point of a txt file with source/location/etc is that if someone likes the recording so much they can go out with the same equipment and knowledge and make a similar tape.  just like we should with any EQ/amplification/track splits/gear description/mic config/etc, we should state what exactly we did in the text file so the listener that does care about such things has an accurate "idea" of what happened that night.

for the record, i keep the whole master file and FLAC sets uncut, then to burn to CD it depends on the artist and show.  if the whole show fits on a disc ill just leave it but if its enough of an issue i remove unnecessary tracks.  when tracking, if its just a minute or two of silence/tuning i just leave it at the end of the track.  like someone stated above, thats what the skip button is for.  however, if the artist has a "story" segment that takes up significant time or really long tuning, i just make that a separate track that way i (and the downloader) can decide what to do with it after the fact.  its really all subjective, but thats what i do.

[rjp]

For me, it's very much a judgment call as to how much (if any) editing I do. I usually record classical, and won't hesitate to cut out tuning, overly long pauses between movements, or orchestra/chorus rearrangements. I generally crossfade rather than fading out and in.

[splumer]

I cut anything that doesn't have sound coming from the stage. If there is considerable between song banter or even noodling I'll leave it on the end of the previous track. You can always skip to the next track if you don't want to hear it. Crowd noise, silence, long drawn out tuning and other stuff gets cut.

I don't know if I made myself clear in my original post. I do the above when I cut anything out. I never cut out any talk from the stage, or most noodling/tuning. But if the band is just going to stand there talking to each other off-mic, while the crowd gets fairly quiet, I'll cut it out. DMB's official releases cut all that out, and it makes for a much more listenable recording. Based on the discussion here, I think I'll keep on doing what I've been doing, but just judge it a little more carefully. For the record, I always make sure my cuts are seamless.

[morst]

A few times, I've been able to cut out a crowd chatter track to make it fit on a single cd, but I'll distribute the whole thing, and put a note in the text file to "remove track 21 to fit on 1 CD"

I track crowd chatter or stage banter separately when it exceeds 1 minute. When I play back in my jukebox software, I tag all the crowd and banter tracks as "Books and spoken word" so they don't show up in my music shuffle.