Topic: Stack recording: hypers or cards?

[aberg]

I'll be probably doing a left side stack recording of the allmans tonight from the first row on the floor. What would be best for this? Hypers or cards? I'll be running 480s... should I run a tight DIN or X/Y? What experiences have people had...?

[SonicSound]

Not an AKG man but I would recommend running cards over hypers.  You are so close to the source that crow noise should have less impact.  Also with the hypers you have some issues with the back lobe.  As far as configuration, not sure have not done enough stack recordings to recommend.  I am sure someone else has an opinion.

[china_rider]

If youre going to be that close to the stack you may want to run the pad on the bodies also.

[willndmb]

i don't think you will notice a difference in configuration that close

[OFOTD]

Allmans are running a stereo mix.  Stack taping won't get it all.  Oh and if you do tape from there still, run the cards ORTF.

[Church-Audio]

I would never run cardioids for stack taping, I would run omni mics. Stacks are very directional and cardioids are very directional you can end up with a real messof just mids or just high end. Omni close up will give the best sound IMO.

[Will_S]

Also with the hypers you have some issues with the back lobe.

IMO, the back lobe issue with hypers is way overblown.  Both in practical experience, and theory.  If anyone can spot a flaw with the logic below, let me know.

Yes, hypers accept sound (at reduced sensitivity) from directly behind the mic, whereas cards have a null (at least at higher frequencies).  But overall cards accept sounds over a wider angle of space generally behind the mic than do hypers.  So I don't think you'd ever have issues with hypers picking up more diffuse/aggregate crowd sound from the rear than do hypers.

So, the concern becomes what if you have a yakker in the seat directly behind you, or one seat behind and to the right/left.  (If you have a yakker to the side or in front, you're in trouble no matter what).

First, consider the yakker directly behind you.  He should be in the acceptance lobe of the hypers and in the null of the cards, right?  Not so fast.  Most people run cards/hypers with an included angle of around 90°.  In which case the guy behind you is really at an angle of 135° with respect to the mics.  So now he's in the null of the hypers but picked up (somewhat) by the cards.

Even if you are running both mics pointed directly ahead, remember that mics are directional in 3-D space, not just a 2-D plane.  So if you raise the mics substantially above head height, the yakker behind you is now off-axis to the mics, moving into the null for hypers and moving out of the null for cards.

Now consider a yakker in the seat behind you and to the right.  With respect to the right microphone, he's 90° off axis.  Picked up substantially more by the cards than the hypers.  For the left microphone, he's directly behind.  In the null of the cardiod but picked up by the hyper (but only if the mics are at head height).  Still, a cardiod is usually more sensitive at 90° than a hyper is at 180°, so overall, he'll be louder in the cards.  In the hypers he's picked up fainlty by both mics resutling in a fairly diffuse sound, in the cards he's distinctly in one channel.  The way I perceive stereo playback, that makes him more distinct/obtrusive.  YMMV.

[SonicSound]

Good points -  note to self - avoid the yakker

Also with the hypers you have some issues with the back lobe.

IMO, the back lobe issue with hypers is way overblown.  Both in practical experience, and theory.  If anyone can spot a flaw with the logic below, let me know.

Yes, hypers accept sound (at reduced sensitivity) from directly behind the mic, whereas cards have a null (at least at higher frequencies).  But overall cards accept sounds over a wider angle of space generally behind the mic than do hypers.  So I don't think you'd ever have issues with hypers picking up more diffuse/aggregate crowd sound from the rear than do hypers.

So, the concern becomes what if you have a yakker in the seat directly behind you, or one seat behind and to the right/left.  (If you have a yakker to the side or in front, you're in trouble no matter what).

First, consider the yakker directly behind you.  He should be in the acceptance lobe of the hypers and in the null of the cards, right?  Not so fast.  Most people run cards/hypers with an included angle of around 90°.  In which case the guy behind you is really at an angle of 135° with respect to the mics.  So now he's in the null of the hypers but picked up (somewhat) by the cards.

Even if you are running both mics pointed directly ahead, remember that mics are directional in 3-D space, not just a 2-D plane.  So if you raise the mics substantially above head height, the yakker behind you is now off-axis to the mics, moving into the null for hypers and moving out of the null for cards.

Now consider a yakker in the seat behind you and to the right.  With respect to the right microphone, he's 90° off axis.  Picked up substantially more by the cards than the hypers.  For the left microphone, he's directly behind.  In the null of the cardiod but picked up by the hyper (but only if the mics are at head height).  Still, a cardiod is usually more sensitive at 90° than a hyper is at 180°, so overall, he'll be louder in the cards.  In the hypers he's picked up fainlty by both mics resutling in a fairly diffuse sound, in the cards he's distinctly in one channel.  The way I perceive stereo playback, that makes him more distinct/obtrusive.  YMMV.

[spyder9]

I'll be probably doing a left side stack recording of the allmans tonight from the first row on the floor. What would be best for this? Hypers or cards? I'll be running 480s... should I run a tight DIN or X/Y? What experiences have people had...?

It depends how close you are.  In the first 5 rows, I suggest cards. Anything behind that, you start thinking hypers.  It depends on waht kind of stack their running at the venue.  My favorite is butterfly stacks.   

I ran 3rd row left stack for ABB at Niagara Falls this past June.  I ran my mics as high as I could get them, leaned the pole back on a 45 degree angle so I could pick up the proper SPL, and ran a -10db pad on the mic.  Forget the 7' theory, ABB let's you run them as high as you can get them, in most venues, so go ahead and do it.  I ran my cards to the outside the stack, so I got some kind of separation, but wasn't head on with the stack.  The results were more than I anticipated and was very happy.

Now, you're running from the front row, correct Andy?  If the big PAs are sitting on the stage, you should be OK.  But, if they are hoisted above your head, you'll be too close and will need to clamp to someone farther back.  Lip recordings are not always the best for ABB, because they have alot of lyrics in their songs.


Example about halfway down this thread
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67154.0

Have fun tonight!!   

[Oysterhead00]

As you can see by my equiptment and lack of posts/tickets, I'm not NEARLY as experienced as everybody else in this thread....

But I thought when I was looking at mics and stuff I was told that if you do stack taping, you don't want to use Hypers if possible.  I started out as just a stealth taper and smaller venues where my sole purpose was to get up by the stacks (with ear plugs) and record.

The reason being that aiming them both at the single stack would result in a very mono sounding recording.  Granted, first row might not make much of a difference as Cards wouldn't pick up much more, but is this true?  I've only ever used Cards and am looking to pick up some Hyper and Omni caps in the future and am interested in this topic, but need it dumbed down for my understanding

Not trying to thread hijack, but looking to gain some input so I don't have to ask a very similar question in the future.

[drewloo]

Also with the hypers you have some issues with the back lobe.

IMO, the back lobe issue with hypers is way overblown.  Both in practical experience, and theory.  If anyone can spot a flaw with the logic below, let me know.

All in all I agree w/ much of what you say, but I don't think it's that overblown, really.  There's one place I tape at that used to have a pool table set up about 20' behind the sbd, and the times I ran hypers I could clearly hear on the recording when anyone would start a new pool game and break.  The funny thing is that I would never hear the break while at the show, only on tape.  Luckily the pool table's gone, now. 

[Brian Skalinder]

There's one place I tape at that used to have a pool table set up about 20' behind the sbd, and the times I ran hypers I could clearly hear on the recording when anyone would start a new pool game and break.

Could you hear the break with cards?  Also, in what configs were you running the hypers / cards?  That'd have an impact, too.

[nickgregory]

common misconception with stack recording is that the recording is going to sound mono.  Fact is the environment around the stack is still stereo.  When stack taping, I would generally recomment DIN, or even ORTF to give you a pseudo stereo image.  Also, the statement that you wont get one instrument on one side of a stereo mix is inaccurate when your talking about large touring acts.  Most of them use a panned stereo image, so that if your sitting dead on Oteils side you wont just hear Oteil thumping away, you will also hear Gregg mixed in on that side as well.  Not to the extent of Oteil, but you will still hear Gregg as well. 

Last comment on the subject, I am not one of these, tape the stack as high as you can go to minimize crowd noise.  I tend to run 7-9' for most amp stack taping, which will generally reduce the crowd a bit, but still get a well balanced sound

my .02 fwiw

[drewloo]

There's one place I tape at that used to have a pool table set up about 20' behind the sbd, and the times I ran hypers I could clearly hear on the recording when anyone would start a new pool game and break.

Could you hear the break with cards?  Also, in what configs were you running the hypers / cards?  That'd have an impact, too.

If I recall correctly I was running the TLs about 20cm spread (what I usually do) and ran a bit narrower than a 90° angle, probably more like 80°.  I don't recall that I've ever had the problem hearing the break w/ cards, though.