Topic: talk me out of buying an R-09 since I already own an H120

[ozarkbilly]

What will I gain by owning the Edirol R-09?  Any suggestions are welcomed.  I plan on mainly stealthing, just for the convenience of it.  I just think I'll like the R-09 for festivals and/or longer shows where I can carry a change or two of batteries and a few extra 4g cards.  And in a pinch (from some shows I've heard that others have taped) the internal mics will do a passing job.  Especially if I send it off for the CA mod on the internals.
 
I've yet to record my first show with my H120 and I'm ready to pull the trigger on an R-09.  I can see that I'm going to have a gear-acquiring affliction in this new hobby...

[rastasean]

Well, I'll pay half if you pay half and you will gain having half ownership out of it. That's good enough, right?

[Alchemy]

I am in the same position, but I decided the R-09 is a nice upgrade because...

1.) The pre-amp seems to produce a thicker, "fuller" sound. That's not saying anything about the noise floor though.
2.) No moving parts in a hard drive is a big plus.
3.) 24 bit is nice and a big selling point for me, but maybe it's not as important for you.

[rastasean]

I am in the same position, but I decided the R-09 is a nice upgrade because...

2.) No moving parts in a hard drive is a big plus.

That is one thing I don't understand about Sound Devices, why are there hard drives in the machines. Removable media is so damn cheap, it seems like SD could focus on something other than picking a hard drive to use for the devices. I also don't like the camcorders with hard drives. Ever since my ipod died several years ago, I don't see what is so great about something that could break so easily. I hard computer HD can fail too but people back that up or have copies of things already.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

That is one thing I don't understand about Sound Devices, why are there hard drives in the machines. Removable media is so damn cheap, it seems like SD could focus on something other than picking a hard drive to use for the devices.

If we may digress from the topic of this thread for a moment...  CF was TINY and EXPENSIVE when the 7xx were designed. Only recently has large capacity (32GB) CF become reasonable in price. It was *not* a viable option when the 7xx were released. Especially for film crews that may spend an entire day on site recording...  Or people who record in the remote wilderness. But SD provides a CF slot and offers the 702 without a hard drive.. And they offer the ability to do RAID across the CF and drive.

I prefer the hard drive.   I prefer to leave my masters on the 722 until I have had a chance to fully process them and check for errors.  That takes a lot of time, especially when doing a run of shows or traveling (I record at 24/96).  With CF media, I'd have to delete my shows too soon. Even with 32GB CF, I see it as being more susceptible to total loss via static discharge.

CF is not as reliable for recording as some folks would suggest (though sound devices users seem to report fewer CF issues than those of other recorders). There are a lot of flakey CF cards out there. Seems like I read about recordists having CF problems very regularly. CF has yet to be proven more reliable than hard drives for field recording.  How many 7xx users have lost hard drive shows here compared to the frequent CF/SD problems?

[rastasean]

This is a good explanation to me. I guess people don't want to carry around a dozen 1 or 4 gig cards all the time especially when they are working on big shows or the sound crew like you state. I do like the fact the the SD have both HD & place for removable media.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I have a HD-P2.  When it designed, the CF Card was the heat.  Now its the SD Card... 

Having a internal HD mean no worrying about out-dated external media... 

Terry

[Gutbucket]

..where I can carry a change or two of batteries and a few extra 4g cards...

4gb cards are as ancient as HD's bud, go 8gb, maybe 16gb and eliminate the swapin'.  
Next year we'll run 32gb cards and do full 4 day fests, they'll rebate for $28 by then.

Nobody's gonna talk you out of it, you know you want one.

[JasonSobel]

I have a HD-P2.  When it designed, the CF Card was the heat.  Now its the SD Card... 

Having a internal HD mean no worrying about out-dated external media... 

I wouldn't worry about CF cards, even though SD cards are gaining in popularity, CF isn't going anywhere.

CF is not as reliable for recording as some folks would suggest (though sound devices users seem to report fewer CF issues than those of other recorders). There are a lot of flakey CF cards out there. Seems like I read about recordists having CF problems very regularly. CF has yet to be proven more reliable than hard drives for field recording.  How many 7xx users have lost hard drive shows here compared to the frequent CF/SD problems?

while I don't have any proof or any data to back this up, my opinion is that the problems people have with flash card media stems from two causes (1) cheapo media and (2) cheap decks.  to fix (1), just spend the money to buy a a name brand card.  lots less problems with name brand media.  but the big thing is (2).  generally speaking, the problems that people have with flash media is because they're using decks that are much cheaper and less well designed than the 722.  the truth is, those SD units are just fantastic, in every regard.  with cheaper decks, the firmware isn't as good and less stable.  obviously, there are extremes (i.e. the MT), and some cheaper decks are much more reliable (i.e. the r09).   but I think the issue is more to do with quality firmware, rather than unreliable media.  as you say, I haven't heard of one report of lost or corrupt data on the 722 (or 702).  also, the only reports of corrupt media that I've heard regarding the HD-P2 is due to users ejecting the cards while the unit is still on without properly unmounting the media.

[OOK]

I have a HD-P2.  When it designed, the CF Card was the heat.  Now its the SD Card... 

Having a internal HD mean no worrying about out-dated external media... 

I wouldn't worry about CF cards, even though SD cards are gaining in popularity, CF isn't going anywhere.

CF is not as reliable for recording as some folks would suggest (though sound devices users seem to report fewer CF issues than those of other recorders). There are a lot of flakey CF cards out there. Seems like I read about recordists having CF problems very regularly. CF has yet to be proven more reliable than hard drives for field recording.  How many 7xx users have lost hard drive shows here compared to the frequent CF/SD problems?

while I don't have any proof or any data to back this up, my opinion is that the problems people have with flash card media stems from two causes (1) cheapo media and (2) cheap decks.  to fix (1), just spend the money to buy a a name brand card.  lots less problems with name brand media.  but the big thing is (2).  generally speaking, the problems that people have with flash media is because they're using decks that are much cheaper and less well designed than the 722.  the truth is, those SD units are just fantastic, in every regard.  with cheaper decks, the firmware isn't as good and less stable.  obviously, there are extremes (i.e. the MT), and some cheaper decks are much more reliable (i.e. the r09).   but I think the issue is more to do with quality firmware, rather than unreliable media.  as you say, I haven't heard of one report of lost or corrupt data on the 722 (or 702).  also, the only reports of corrupt media that I've heard regarding the HD-P2 is due to users ejecting the cards while the unit is still on without properly unmounting the media.

For the record I have never had a problem with my HDP2.  I use a sandisk ultr2 8 gig card.  I have never had an issue or lost recording let alone a tick, click or pop.....

[bluntforcetrauma]

If you have to ask you already know the answer

[sunjan]

What will I gain by owning the Edirol R-09?  Any suggestions are welcomed.  I plan on mainly stealthing, just for the convenience of it.  I just think I'll like the R-09 for festivals and/or longer shows where I can carry a change or two of batteries and a few extra 4g cards.  And in a pinch (from some shows I've heard that others have taped) the internal mics will do a passing job.  Especially if I send it off for the CA mod on the internals.
 
I've yet to record my first show with my H120 and I'm ready to pull the trigger on an R-09.  I can see that I'm going to have a gear-acquiring affliction in this new hobby...

OK, after thinking real hard, I can come up with a few valid points that you'll miss:
 - no optical in (maybe a moot point if you're stealthing, but H120 is more versatile if you have an AD20 or UA5 and want to run open once in a while)
 - no Rockbox (I like the cheesy little games and stuff you can play while listening on the bus/train. Also a customizable FM receiver, text editor and a few other goodies)
 - the H120 can be modded for CF use too.

Having said that, there are a lot more advantages with the R09 at the end of the day. Better pre has been mentioned: more gain to your external mics, enabling you to run them without BB or external pre if you're in a tight spot.

For stealthing, I couldn't see myself running the internals with the R09, even after having them upgraded. Hat mounted externals beats hand held in every situation. And I like to have my hands free during the gig, but that's just me...

You haven't mentioned the rest of your rig. Do you have external mics + BB/pre/AD already, or which are you planning to pick up?

/J

[jeromejello]

imo, if you were going to be stealthing primarly, i would stay with the iriver.  the main reason is the remote (although the extra space of the HD can let you hit record and just roll if you are in a jam).

that being said, i did recently pick up a r-09 and broke it in last night running 24bit - but it was run out in the open.

sure the r-09 has a better a/d, smaller, no moving parts, field changable batteries/media, and 24 bit... but the ihp has 20gigs at least of storage, built like a tank, a very useful remote, rockboxx, optical in.

[ozarkbilly]

You haven't mentioned the rest of your rig. Do you have external mics + BB/pre/AD already, or which are you planning to pick up?

/J

I've picked up a used CA ST9000 & set of CA cards, and I have decided to stick with just the H120 for now.  I think I'll probably pick up the R-09 in the future, but for now I'm just going to enjoy what I've got and see what kind of results I can pull.  +T's going out for all the advice/input 

[darktrain]

i would buy the Marantz pmd620, i owned the r-09 and just never liked the feel and construction, the marantz is a solid build, better jacks and nice preamp, no bb needed, run the mics straight into the mic in with no problem and the price is similar, i paid 345 shipped w/ a 2gb card