Author Topic: 4060s - how much is too much (Read 10739 times)

dklein · « **on:** January 23, 2004, 12:01:29 PM »

I'm wondering what the collective experiences are with 4060s and concert level volumes. Most people seem to use the 4061s but I was thinking that it might be cool to have something with high sensitivity so I could drive the JB3 in analog stealth mode.

4060s are spec'd to a max of 134dB SPL, where the 4061s go to 144dB.

The sensitivities are 20mV/Pa vs. 6mV/Pa. I already know that I can't get what I want with the lower sensitivity of the 4061.

So the question is...do you 4060 guys ever find the mics being overloaded, in what scenario and what were you using for phantom?

Thanks!

mhibbs · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2004, 01:01:55 PM »

I don't think you going to see anything approach 134db in a concert environment.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2004, 04:45:24 PM »

unless you are in sweden and right next to the stack, you won't reach 134dB. No personal experince with the DPAs, but I use mics rated at 138 SPL in very loud and close environments and have never had a problem. Hope someone can be of more help

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2004, 07:40:50 PM »

IMO, and i've used them both...the 4060s are definatly the way to go. the 61/71s are just too low sen to sealth w/o a preamp.

BobW · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:28:56 PM »

FWIW, just listened to SCI show from 10/5/2003 Philly.

Band playing games with the crowd as usual, took a loudness measurement of band and audience screaming at the same time. Band used PA, audience acapella.

Rear of theatre at the soundboard read 113 db

jpschust · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2004, 08:49:20 PM »

yah i dont think you guys realize how loud 134dB really is. at 130dB you are talking about the noise from a jackhammer or an air raid siren. at 140 you are talking about a plane taking off. Our shows arent registering at 134 or even all that close to that.

zhianosatch · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:06:51 PM »

Quote from: NicksPicks on January 23, 2004, 07:40:50 PM

IMO, and i've used them both...the 4060s are definatly the way to go. the 61/71s are just too low sen to sealth w/o a preamp.

that's a negatron, my friend. i've never, ever had a problem feeding a line input with my 4061s.
in fact, one time i had bill's sbm-1 at 4, line in, with my mps's high pass filter on, at the end of cradle of filth on dec 05, 2003. no preamp in sight.
maybe you should see louder shows!

armen

zhianosatch · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2004, 12:26:21 AM »

Quote from: Schwilly on January 23, 2004, 04:45:24 PM

unless you are in sweden and right next to the stack, you won't reach 134dB. No personal experince with the DPAs, but I use mics rated at 138 SPL in very loud and close environments and have never had a problem. Hope someone can be of more help

really? you've never strapped these on? i stealthed myself belching last night. a chili cheese dog from frank's famous + newcastle + dr. pepper = the most entertaining dat transfer ever. i gotta put this shit on cd.
lol about sweden... good times
a

dklein · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2004, 12:50:34 AM »

I realize that 134dB is loud but figured it might be possible that the source of phantom power may be a factor and that perhaps the specs could be loose.

thanks for the replies.

plucks · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2004, 01:19:48 AM »

I think in this case, sensitivity should be the main factor. You will most likely never reach an SPL more than 125-130, ever.
The loudest parts of most concerts are 110db...that's when it starts to hurts a little.
another 10dB (120db) will equal double the dB levels to what you are hearing (This is different than the doubling/halving of 6dB relative to distance), and another 10dB (130db) willl double that!
You should be fine with either dB on that and your main feature should be the sensitivity because of that.

Phil

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:57:36 AM »

Armen and Coluzi..
have you ever run the 4060?
im telling ya, there just isnt' a *need* for the low sen models. Ever run them at into a JB3? way too low sen. Especialy at quiet shows, like jazz...
While they might work fine for loud shows, and i'm sure they do, the 4060's work better for a broader range of live performances.
but, that's just my opinion.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:14:53 AM »

fugging logs

zhianosatch · « **Reply #12 on:** January 24, 2004, 12:33:09 PM »

Quote from: NicksPicks on January 24, 2004, 07:57:36 AM

Armen and Coluzi..
have you ever run the 4060?

nope...

Quote

im telling ya, there just isnt' a *need* for the low sen models. Ever run them at into a JB3?

no

Quote

way too low sen. Especialy at quiet shows, like jazz...

yes, i can imagine that. i've never really been to a quiet show. my burps must be loud!

Quote

While they might work fine for loud shows, and i'm sure they do, the 4060's work better for a broader range of live performances.
but, that's just my opinion.

and a valid one.
the need for the lower sens model is to pad the user's ass. i feel a lot more comfortable knowing that my 4061s can handle anything well beyond any ambient noise i'll ever encounter. don't they have a smaller dynamic range? i'll take that for the peace of mind.
what if your power supply isn't doing the job? what if DPA's numbers are off? what if you like to tape the stack at cradle of filth?
just in case, better get the tougher mic... or so i think.
a

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #13 on:** January 24, 2004, 07:28:31 PM »

even still...if your clipping a 4060, you'd have blood comeing out of every orafice in a matter of minutes.
130+db is fuckin LOUD.

even MULE doesnt come anywhere near this.

macdaddy · « **Reply #14 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:46:37 PM »

Quote

even MULE doesnt come anywhere near this.

how about j mascis or trail of dead??? I saw a dino jr show at the roxy years back and it was the loudest thing I have ever heard. painful.

I saw ToD last year @ the Henry Fonda with Mogwai opening (the are another band that plays loudly, almost excessively). It was that show that convinced me to wear earplugs at every show, which I have done to this day...

I even wore earplugs taping rich robinson acoustic last night, not so much for him, but for the crappy music they blast over the PA between sets. plus it makes my tapes sound that much better to me when I get home

...

I use the 4060s. I picked them because I thought they had more dynamic range, and because I dont just tape loud bands, so the higher sensitivity is a boon there...

if you go mic in, you might want the -20db att cable, too - I needed it. But I go line in primarily (with the sbm1) and need no att cable for that, although I sometimes get mighty close to 4 on the sbm1 (and going under 4, certainly under 3, for some reason causes fierce clipping - I still dont get that part, but I know to avoid it)....

if the dynamics are better, which I think they are, the 4060s are the way to go...

I think the ones at core sound are around $900, which is more than they run on ebay, but the ones you get from core are matched, and you get the batt box with switchable filter...

jpschust · « **Reply #15 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:48:33 PM »

ok, macdaddy, no way no how you are over 130dB, I don't care what the show is. You would be doing some serious hearing damage at that level. You arent going to over gain the mics, its gonna be a pre that is gonna go before that.

macdaddy · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2004, 08:58:31 PM »

jp - I agree with ya. I wasnt saying that those shoes were at 130db or above, I just said those shows were super loud, and that they were painful...

i dont think any shows approach 134 or above, but that doesnt mean there arent some loud ones...

I dont know where the clipping comes from, i think it is a sony deal. if the knobs are below 3 (which going mic in at primus w/o an att cable dictated to keep the levels below 0) there is massive clipping. If you go above 4, even if the over lights are lighting up like firecrackers, the sound is better, and there is less clipping than there was when I kept the levels down...

going line in solves that problem, and I am able to hover between 4 and 8 on the level knob depending on the volume of the show...

sorry if I wasnt clear...

zhianosatch · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2004, 09:11:47 PM »

you should never run "mic in" with sony portable gear at a concert. ever.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2004, 09:14:36 PM »

any consumer gear for that matter, and even the m1

macdaddy · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2004, 09:20:53 PM »

I don't but what's the rationale..?

thanks.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2004, 09:24:51 PM »

it's a really cheap preamp, most likely prone to distortion

Arglebargle · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2004, 11:30:20 PM »

I've run into problems with these mics taping too close to the monitors on stage and the WAV form gets clipped.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2004, 11:43:21 PM »

and you've determined it's an SPL issue?

zhianosatch · « **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2004, 12:41:45 AM »

Dubious.

jpschust · « **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2004, 02:57:07 AM »

its not just any cheap preampt, but any amp is open to distortion at certain levels. unless you are using ribbon mics (which none of us are) the issue of the mic clipping is almost never gonna be the issue. It's gonna be an issue of overloading the pre or the a/d.

zhianosatch · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:12:22 AM »

Highly dubious.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2004, 07:51:24 AM »

the only mic I ever had that regularly clipped due to its maximum SPL being reached was the ST-250..believe it or not.

They say it can handle 120db on its own. Horseshit! I measured and measured and tested until I was blue, and it was more like 113 - 118db before it would clip.
A *very* sensitive mic. End result (other than ruining a lot of my first recordings w/it) is that I had to engage the -20db pad on it at all times. Even for bands like "rusted root" that are not loud.

On stage for SKB or JFJO, the SPLs would be in the 120+ range on certain louder passages. Pretty freakin' loud.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #27 on:** January 25, 2004, 07:53:32 AM »

for shits and giggles, pick up one of those RS SPL meeters and bring it to shows. Then you'll know what you are getting. You'll find that most peak moments are in the 100-110db range if you measure from the SBD.

Arglebargle · « **Reply #28 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:48:42 PM »

I don't see how it could be my preamp, I run the DPAs through 15 DB attenuators before it hits the preamp, I guess it could be the attenuators maybe, but I've eliminated all other variables. With the 15 DB attenuation I run the AD20 knobs at about 12 oclock to get full peaks, about the same as with my AKG 480s set to -10, I've run my AKGs at 0 attenuation (there's the switch on the mic) and the AD20 knobs were as low as they could go and had some clipping when it went over 0, but the WAVform itself wasn't clipped below zero, like the DPAs when I get them to close to the speakers. I think the noise levels get really loud as you get closer. It was basically an experiment to acheive stress free chatter free tapes but it had limited success. A few shows sounded great, and a few really stunk. It worked well in small clubs or larger clubs with a large stage.

VA_TAPER · « **Reply #29 on:** January 26, 2004, 05:54:01 PM »

Quote from: Arglebargle on January 25, 2004, 04:48:42 PM

I run the AD20

nuff said, AD20=minimum 40db gain even with 15db attn it's still 25db gain before A/D, so you're either clipping the output tage of the pre or the input of the A/D
peace chris

Arglebargle · « **Reply #30 on:** January 26, 2004, 07:05:30 PM »

You could be right but I still have to crank up the knobs on the AD20 to 12 oclock (that's halfway between min and max) to get a full peaks, so I know the AD20 can handle a much hotter signal because I've had it running at zero gain (knobs at min) without any sort of problems before. I'm still pretty certain it's the mics, although I do admit I could be wrong.

Arglebargle · « **Reply #31 on:** January 26, 2004, 07:10:12 PM »

I guess I'm really trying to figure out is why would the AD20 not be able to handle a signal that is weaker than another signal that it can handle. Perhaps there's more bass in the DPAs than the AKGs perhaps. I don't get it.

zhianosatch · « **Reply #32 on:** January 27, 2004, 06:05:33 AM »

Bass, brotha! Happened to me all the time!

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #33 on:** January 27, 2004, 04:39:03 PM »

but you had the 4061s and it still happened, had to get an XTRA $200 mod to get them to function properly. Not saying it doesn't sound badass now, but just getting the 61's or attenuators on the AD-20 doesn't solve all the problems.

zhianosatch · « **Reply #34 on:** January 27, 2004, 07:48:20 PM »

I'm not saying anything different. The AD-20 can't hack the low end.

BobW · « **Reply #35 on:** January 28, 2004, 06:02:22 PM »

Agreed, at 134db you'd better have ear protection or you will have permanent hearing loss within minutes.
dpa4060 can manage 120db even if off by 5%, a tolerance variation unheard of for a German-engineered product.

Another show will come to town, ears, on the other hand, cannot be transplanted.

Sound Levels and Hearing Loss

jpschust · « **Reply #36 on:** January 28, 2004, 06:12:06 PM »

ears can be transplanted, hearing cannot :-)

BobW · « **Reply #37 on:** January 28, 2004, 06:17:00 PM »

Then I want Opie ears, by golly !
I'm going to ask "Paw!"

nihilistic0 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 30, 2004, 05:29:09 PM »

Ive done a little research on dB levels before, and I noticed that the pain threshold is app. 130 dB. Ive also heard that the sound @ the stacks at most concerts is 130 dB, but by the time the sound gets to anyone, it loses a lot of steam

jpschust · « **Reply #39 on:** January 30, 2004, 05:54:39 PM »

yah sound at the stacks is 130, if your ear is next to the stacks!

Crimson · « **Reply #40 on:** February 02, 2004, 08:44:01 PM »

I get pretty close to the stacks

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #41 on:** February 03, 2004, 02:37:09 AM »

you tape DMB?

zhianosatch · « **Reply #42 on:** February 03, 2004, 02:11:01 PM »

ah, lol...

DPA · « **Reply #43 on:** February 26, 2004, 06:48:24 PM »

The DPA mics run true to spec with phantom power ranging from 5V to 50V with no change to specs. And you can count on DPA specs as be very accurate.
I've been doing sound for 30 years and can say with assurance that 134 will only be approached at the stacks themselves. Typical levels for Loud concerts is in the peak 120 to 125 range...and that is a concert I'll leave before hurting my hearing long term. Croud noise at a NHL hockey event, Playoffs, game 7, final period and the home team scores? 120 dB peak, for reference. measured many times....

creekfreak · « **Reply #44 on:** February 28, 2004, 12:59:25 PM »

yea, sersiously, if you are at a show that approaches 130-140DB the last thing you will need to worry about is if your mics can handle it.

DPA · « **Reply #45 on:** March 01, 2004, 03:51:00 PM »

for BobW...DPA is a Danish company applying manufacturing concepts and tollerances far tighter than anything that comes outa Germany these days.

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #46 on:** March 01, 2004, 05:04:23 PM »

OHHHH snap!

Author Topic: 4060s - how much is too much (Read 10739 times)

BobW

jpschust

jpschust

jpschust

BobW

jpschust

BobW

jpschust