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Offline Ed.

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hd-dvd or bluray
« on: November 27, 2006, 11:56:34 AM »
saw this on digg, thought it was kind of interesting, although its just basic information.
http://www.gadgetcandy.com/archives/2006/11/bluray.php

I personally agree with the user comment that both will be unimportant and HD downloads will be the next thing to take off.  With the price of hdd's dropping, and computers being worked into home theaters, it seems like downloading movies from a pay site will be much easier than going out and buying it in the store.

I'd imagine whichever format works better for storage and backups will be the one that wins...or prices drop on both of them, dual drive players/recorders are released and the two pretty much become one in the same.


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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 12:09:03 PM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's.  whether that means developing a 2 laser system or separate trays or whatever, people are just not going to give up on the number of dvd's that have been sold in this country.  it seems to be the more elegant technology, but unless you can play your dvd's in a blu-ray player, it will remain a niche technology.

as for internet downloads of hd movies, i don't think that's really going to gain a foothold for years.  i just don't see people integrating their computers to that extent.  how many people do you think would really like having PC's sitting in their living room next to their wall-mounted plasmas?  plus, imagine how long it would take to download a 40 gig movie...even if it's cheaper, people would much rather drive to best buy and pick up the movie in 15 minutes than deal with downloading for days, imo.

Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 12:19:28 PM »
yeah, but if its directly integrated into ones tivo/dvr, kind of like On Demand I think it'll take off.  Doesn't On Demand already have some older HD movies?  It just seems to me that optical media is slowly going to be fazed out, even if it is over the course of the next 10 years.


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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 12:23:14 PM »
yeah, you can get some hd movies on on-demand.  cinemax had all 6 of the star wars movies in HD on on-demand last week (not sure if they're stil on there or not).

i don't think optical media is going anywhere in the short term.  well, maybe it could be replaced by some other type of physical medium (flash media maybe?).  but consumers in the US like to physically purchase something, give it as a gift, or whatever.  downloads may appeal to geeks like us, but the average consumer doesn't want that, imo.  they want to be able to look over a shelf full of dvd titles to pick out what they want to watch.  they want the ability to have something that won't disappear if a hard-drive gets corrupted.

Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 12:30:56 PM »
good point.  I myself, welcome the download side of things.  Its easier all around if you ask me, however, there's still a part of me that likes to own the case if I really like it.  Plus its fun to show off your collection when your friends come over.  Showing people a stack of hard drives, just isn't the same.


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Offline George

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 01:47:41 PM »
Even though I'm a geek, I'd rather own a physical copy.  The thought of downloading and then burning a "store bought" cd or dvd is ridiculous to me (and even printing out the booklet).  I don't even own a dvr yet and I imagine most Americans don't either.  A lot of the "advances" that are being discussed simply wont happen due to customer frustration with newer technology.  I don't think physical media is going anywhere, anytime soon. 
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Offline scervin

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 05:57:32 PM »
While there were a ton of people buying up HD tv's this past weekend, I don't think either will be "mainstream" in the near future (5 yrs).  The last time I checked only 20% or so (could be even less) own a HD set. 

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be for the niche market.  I don't think the avg Joe see's the PQ difference.  It is not as night and day as when DVD took over VHS.  It will be for the SACD and DVD-A market.  The PS3 might help HD-DVD and Blu-Ray's cause.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 07:07:31 PM »
For those of you who have HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players, I was at Tower Records last weekend and all the HD format discs are 40% off.

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Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2006, 07:15:00 PM »
saw this and had to laugh

http://www.bbspot.com/News/2006/04/unbreakable-drm.html

Monday, April 24 12:00 AM ET
MPAA and DVD Manufacturers Agree on HD-DVD Format
By George Beckingham

Los Angeles, CA - The MPAA and an association of DVD manufacturers have finally agreed on a standard for high-definition DVDs. The new " Crystal" format provides unbreakable copy protection and Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) features.



"You cannot copy these new discs, even in a Linux machine," says Akita Niigata, a representative for Sony, who developed the discs.

The discs hold 0% of the data of conventional DVDs. Drive manufacturers said that it will be much easier to meet these specs compared with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs. "They'll work with existing machines without any changes, said Niigata.

"The DRM is unbreakable," says Norman Utbar of the MPAA.

"Of course, some users might complain about the fact that there is no content on these discs, but we're certain our law-abiding customers will see that as a small price to pay for the security resulting from the advanced DRM. And of course, if we receive any complaints, we'll subpoena the whiners under the DMCA, because they're probably guilty of some form of copyright infringement."

Utbar said he didn't think consumers would mind paying $14.95 and not seeing Deuce Bigalow European Gigolo.

A representative for the Penguin Liberation Front, which makes available tools to circumvent DRM on Linux computers, refused comment because he was busy downloading next year's theatrical releases from his favorite torrent tracker.

this one is pretty funny too...
http://www.bbspot.com/News/2006/11/home-theater-regulations.html
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 07:19:38 PM by Ed. »


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Offline Stagger

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2006, 02:54:19 PM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's. 

They do... we (finally) got the Sony BDPS1 player at work and pretty much everyone here agrees that it is the best looking upconverting DVD player in the store, including a DVD5910CI. Bluray is the better format. More storage = more longevity as media size increases.. Case closed.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2006, 05:20:14 PM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's. 

They do... we (finally) got the Sony BDPS1 player at work and pretty much everyone here agrees that it is the best looking upconverting DVD player in the store, including a DVD5910CI. Bluray is the better format. More storage = more longevity as media size increases.. Case closed.

On which display?

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2006, 06:13:49 PM »
We put it on both a Sony SXRD rear projection and a Pioneer Elite PROFHD1 (The best plasma made and the best picture I have ever seen outside of a 3 chip DLP front projector or Qalia front projector). It smokes. The Pioneer unit my be a tad better on actuall Blu-ray discs but the Sony is crazy good on regular DVDs and damn good on Blu-Ray.
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2006, 09:34:31 AM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's. 

They do... we (finally) got the Sony BDPS1 player at work and pretty much everyone here agrees that it is the best looking upconverting DVD player in the store, including a DVD5910CI. Bluray is the better format. More storage = more longevity as media size increases.. Case closed.

awesome.  for some reason, i thought blu-ray was not going to upconvert regular dvd's.

josh, i have read on various forums that early blu-ray transfers looked washed out and were generally unimpressive...have you seen this as well?

We put it on both a Sony SXRD rear projection and a Pioneer Elite PROFHD1 (The best plasma made and the best picture I have ever seen outside of a 3 chip DLP front projector or Qalia front projector). It smokes. The Pioneer unit my be a tad better on actuall Blu-ray discs but the Sony is crazy good on regular DVDs and damn good on Blu-Ray.

i find that last part interesting...which sxrd was it, the xbr or kdsa2000 line?  i just traded in my kds50a2000 for a pio 1140 (just got it thursday night).  i was pretty unimpressed by sd dvd's on the sxrd (whether feeding it the upconverted 1080i signal from my sony ns90v or 480i or 480p over component).  the sxrd seemed to introduce an awful lot of mosquito noise and other artifacts.  if it's the newer xbr sxrd's, i'd guess that the improved processing in the xbr is a bigger help than i would've thought it could be.  that's good news as my dad is going to get the 70" when his house is done being renovated next month.


Offline Stagger

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2006, 02:41:03 PM »
The XBR2. Yes some of the transfers do have noise in them...There are 2 reasons for that. 1. The people doing the transfers sucked...just like some folks doing Master Reel ~> SACD transfers are better than others. 2. Most of the first transfers are of older "known entitiy" Titles that were originaly filmed in analoge. You see *everything* in the original print. Noise and all. Think of it like this....

1. A walker table with Koetsu cartridge>Boulder phono pre>CJ ACT2 pre>DarTZeel NHB amp>Acapella Triolon Excalibur
 speakers all cabled with Nordost and Tara

vs.

2. Denon DP29 Table>AVR3806>Polk RTI10ch with typical radio shack cable.

What will give you better sound? Thew first system by far....BUT... you will hear ever pop, click, and molocule of dust in the groove. Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD for that matter) are like the first in that, if there was noise in the original reels, you will see it but it is also showing you ever detail in the film too.

In truth, we need to wait till newer films that were shot streight to digital are more readiily available for both formats. Really though, this is about one thing. Storage. New units will keep comming out with better D>A, scallers, and other features just like they did on DVD. New films shot with better equiment will come out (think of a 24/96 recording made today vs. the early Dead tapes). Blu-Ray has much more capacity and in the end that is what will determine longevity. Would you rather watch all those extra features on your movie in 1080p (Blu-Ray) or 480p (HD-DVD)?
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Offline John Kelly

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2006, 07:57:32 PM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's. 

They do... we (finally) got the Sony BDPS1 player at work and pretty much everyone here agrees that it is the best looking upconverting DVD player in the store, including a DVD5910CI. Bluray is the better format. More storage = more longevity as media size increases.. Case closed.

That's great, but it still wont win.  BluRay doesn't mean anything to the average consumer, but when they hear HD-DVD they already know what it is without any kind of explanation.  And HD-DVD has had some time to mature - there are already second generation players coming out and the prices are dropping.  The library for HD-DVD is larger and the media is typically less expensive.  Plus BluRay players are still prohibitively expensive compared to HD-DVD players.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2006, 09:39:57 PM »
Plus BluRay players are still prohibitively expensive compared to HD-DVD players.

yeah, this is the real problem, and as i understand it, the exact same thing that did in betamax, right?  sony takes too long to get its product to the market despite it being superior and the other technology gets to mature, costs fall and prices start dropping.  An HD-DVD deck is half of the lowest priced bluray deck right now.  plus, sony's strategy of putting bluray in ps3 isn't working cause you can't even get a ps3 unless you are willing to pay double msrp.


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2006, 10:28:59 PM »
Porn killed Beta, will it happen to Sony again? For better or worse, it's all about porn.   ^-^

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/05/02/pornhd/index.php?lsrc=mwrss


Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2006, 12:39:12 AM »
from everything I've read, HD-DVD is beating out bluray.

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

In my opinion, I see bluray going the way of betamax, md, memorystick, and everything else propriety that sony makes.


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2006, 01:35:53 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening. There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD. Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up. THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while. If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?
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Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2006, 02:10:46 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening. There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD. Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up. THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while. If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?

If I were going to pick right now, I'd go HD-DVD - partly because I plan on buying a 360 and I can get the player for $200.  If I were going to wait for a universal player, I'd still buy the HD-DVD disc because I despise Sony and all their propriety junk.

Personally, the only way I see either format surviving is if a universal player comes out that plays both.  If you ask me, both formats aren't going to go very far.  They're like the sacd/dvda of the video world.  Yes, its a step forward, but not a big enough one to draw in the consumer.  Especially with 1TB dvd's on the way and Chinese manufacturers making EVD's that offer 1080p on standard dvd's and players costing less than $100.

At the moment, the biggest appeal for the HD discs are from diehard av-ers or from video game enthusiasts that own either a 360 or a ps3.  I don't know of that many other people all that interested in either format, at least not yet.  I guess I see it from a consumer point of view.  And right now thats, I can buy a 360 and have a great gaming platform, and pay $200 more dollars and get HD-DVD....or I could wait another year and get a ps3 when those finally are common on store shelves.  At the moment I find it completely ludacris to buy a BD or HD-DVD standalone unit at their current prices.

However, right now the PS3 is floundering in every way possible.  People are losing interest by the lack of them on the market and all the problems that have came up in the couple of weeks since their release.  Looking at sales alone shows that 360 is outselling the ps3 hands down.  Normal consumers are buying the 360, normal consumers can't buy the ps3, so I'm guessing that normal consumers will go with HD-DVD addons for their 360 rather than buy a $1000 BD player, or wait for a ps3.

The only other advantage I know of that BD has over HD-DVD is the extra 25gb's of storage space per disc.  However, I could have sworn I read that the Telledega Nights BD only took up 7gb's of space and the same goes for many other titles taking up similar sizes.  If everything won't fit on one disc, put it on two - the same thing that manufacturers do today.  And who really cares about the bonus features anyway.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 02:13:11 PM by Ed. »


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2006, 02:15:30 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening.
It is according to every available article out there that I've come across.  I've yet to see *anything* that says BluRay is taking a lead.

There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD.
Maybe so, but there are still more titles out for HD-DVD than there are for BluRay.

Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up.
Same thing goes for Sony and the PS3, which was supposed to be the BluRay player that took the format over the top. 

THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while.
Universal players wont be out anytime soon.  Sony refuses to issue BluRay licenses for universal players.

If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?
In all honesty, HD-DVD hands down.  Fuck Sony.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2006, 02:20:31 PM »
Especially with 1TB dvd's on the way and Chinese manufacturers making EVD's that offer 1080p on standard dvd's and players costing less than $100.


wow, never knew about EVD. Looks pretty attractive, allows users to rip to HD with no hacking. Looks like a serious format war for optical video media is ensuing. IMHO these companies pushing diff. formats are just shooting themselves in the foot, having 2 diff (HD-DVD/BluRay, not considering all these other things too!) formats for video just makes me want to hold off on buying a new player.  :P

To me it is amazing that all these companines are pushing so hard for the next gen technology when SACD and DVD-a have not reached acceptance yet. I guess there is a lot at stake for the next video standard, whoever is left standing should reap some big time $$. Hope they are not gonna cripple themselves in the process though.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 02:23:17 PM by BC »
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2006, 03:36:47 PM »
From a manufactorer's and retailer's standpoint that just ain't happening. There is actually one more studio making titles in Blu-Ray than in HD-DVD. Right now Toshiba is selling all their players at a huge loss to get market share. They can't keep it up. THe cost of Blu-Ray will come down and universal players (think SACD &DVD-A) will be out in a while. If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?

josh, do you really think it matters all that much which studios have signed on to either technology?  it's not like they are archiving it in a form that wouldn't be relatively easily transferable to other format.  as i understand it, both hd-dvd and bluray support mpeg2 and mpeg4 compressions and both support the same advanced resolution audio formats.  so mastering a new bluray transfer from the material used to master a hd-dvd (or vice versa) shouldn't be that big of a deal.  all that said, i agree that bluray is a more elegant technology, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will win in the market.


At the moment, the biggest appeal for the HD discs are from diehard av-ers or from video game enthusiasts that own either a 360 or a ps3.  I don't know of that many other people all that interested in either format, at least not yet.  I guess I see it from a consumer point of view.  And right now thats, I can buy a 360 and have a great gaming platform, and pay $200 more dollars and get HD-DVD....or I could wait another year and get a ps3 when those finally are common on store shelves.  At the moment I find it completely ludacris to buy a BD or HD-DVD standalone unit at their current prices.


diehard av-ers are of course going to be the early adopters, i really question though whether video game console purchasers are going to make that big of a difference in the drive toward setting a standard.


wow, never knew about EVD. Looks pretty attractive, allows users to rip to HD with no hacking. Looks like a serious format war for optical video media is ensuing. IMHO these companies pushing diff. formats are just shooting themselves in the foot, having 2 diff (HD-DVD/BluRay, not considering all these other things too!) formats for video just makes me want to hold off on buying a new player.  :P

To me it is amazing that all these companines are pushing so hard for the next gen technology when SACD and DVD-a have not reached acceptance yet. I guess there is a lot at stake for the next video standard, whoever is left standing should reap some big time $$. Hope they are not gonna cripple themselves in the process though.


i think they consider sacd and dvd-a as a mature market.  i don't think the manufacturers believe that market is going to expand much beyond the classical and jazz recordings that seem to sell relatively well in the advanced res formats.  that's the niche market that seems to have developed.  however, there are so many more people in the US that have HDTV's and that market will continue to grow.  people will be able to see a difference in a HDDVD or bluray transfer versus upsampled dvd's.  and the market is far more mainstream, so i think it has a much higher chance of catching on.  plus, they've got the 1080p marketing buzz that they can work from to get people to buy these things.  talking about 1mhz DSD and 24/192 audio recordings went in people's ears and out the other as they were converting their cd collections to 128kbps MP3's to listen on ipods.  the movie market is different.  people actually see the difference in hd programming versus SD programming and may want the same for movies.  i'm not saying it's assured, but it's a much wider market to go after.

but in the end, the technological differences between bluray and hddvd are going to be lost on 99% of the customers out there, so long as they can see the better picture, they will go with whichever wins out.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2006, 07:19:50 PM »
Damon pretty much said anything I could have except to say that if people remeber VHS vs. Beta the issue at hand was mostly that Beta had the tech advantage but they never got the backing of major film studios and there was little media available. Typially, what ever tech has more media available has an upper hand (unless it is tragicaly flawed....then again some people still use Mini-Disc). HD-DVD came out first so there are more titles. In order to do that you had a whole generation of machines with 1080i output. The public is learning the difference and it is easy to see in a showroom unlike SACD/DVD-A to the untrained ear.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2006, 07:39:08 PM »
If you could have the same title play in either machine, given the truths about the formats, what would you choose?


What does that statement mean?

My understanding is that BlueRay vs HD-DVD is really only a matter of the container format and physical media.  I thought that both support the same video encoding formats: MPEG2, VC1 and MPEG4/AVC.   no?
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2006, 09:45:44 PM »
The public is learning the difference and it is easy to see in a showroom unlike SACD/DVD-A to the untrained ear.

If it were so easy there wouldn't be any argument.  The fact is the picture quality of both is damn near the same. 
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2006, 11:36:01 PM »
I don't think we are on the same wave length here. The reason why Blu-Ray is better isn't that it's top end picture is betteer it is that it can have more of it. I know that many feel extras on a DVD are worthless but how many times do people run out and buy an additional "Special Edition" copy with more features, bonus tracks, whatever. As techology grows all of these editions take up more space. You could have the full version of the extended cut of the Lord of the Rings movies on 3 Blu-Ray discs with full 1080p. You would not be able to do that on HD-DVD. We can go round and raound on this but I'm sitting there every day talking to my customers and listening to what they want and educating them on the choices they have. I get probably 2x the interest in Blu-Ray even with the new, cheep as shit, below cost 1080p HD-DVD players. Given alot of people are waiting for it to be cheeper but they aren't buying HD-DVD either. In thruth it will be at least a year till we really know anything and, as with SACD, if Blu-Ray doesn't take the lead you can bet that Sony will sell out rights to make universal players. Either side would do the latter to salvage what they can. Hell I remeber when the Linn Unidisk player first hit the market and Audiophiles (given the rare breed they/we are) were jumping at the chance to have just one player, and a damn pretty penny. Even still comparing video and audio formats is not realistic. The truth is that video doesn't handle compression nearly as well as audio and an Ipod like market shift in video is still kinda far off. The bandwith and storage (not to mention the average consumer's know how) isn't there yet. Its getting far closer every day but hard media is still alive and well in video. Really what is the upside in HD-DVD? It is currently cheeper and that will even out soon enough. Toshiba can't sell at a huge loss forever and Blu-Ray will become cheeper as they iron out the kinks. In a year or two the number of Blu-Ray titels will surpass HD-DVD (actualy though the porn argument is a good one as I did a bit of checking, for the purposes of this conversation I swear >:D and most porn studios are using HD-DVD) it is the reality that having more studios signed up brings. In the end it's all speculation.... I think I want a Wii  :P
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2006, 07:50:24 AM »
You could have the full version of the extended cut of the Lord of the Rings movies on 3 Blu-Ray discs with full 1080p.

To me, the size argument isn't that big of a deal.  Whats the difference between 3 discs, 4 discs, 5 discs?  They're both going to be 1080p.

If you ask me, the one that will survive is the one thats easiest to crack, copy, and burn.  The first one to make a sub $300 burner and $2-$5 media is gonna rule the market.


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2006, 08:27:22 AM »
In thruth it will be at least a year till we really know anything and, as with SACD, if Blu-Ray doesn't take the lead you can bet that Sony will sell out rights to make universal players. Either side would do the latter to salvage what they can.

is it even possible to build a universal deck?  is it possible to have 2 different types of lasers built into the same transport or would they have to build 2 drawer models?  it sure would be nice is somebody came out with a nice bluray/hd-dvd/sacd/dvd-a/dvd/cd deck that incorporated the advanced res audio formats (or at least the ability to get them via firmware update as pioneer is supposedly doing with their bluray deck).


To me, the size argument isn't that big of a deal.  Whats the difference between 3 discs, 4 discs, 5 discs?  They're both going to be 1080p.

If you ask me, the one that will survive is the one thats easiest to crack, copy, and burn.  The first one to make a sub $300 burner and $2-$5 media is gonna rule the market.

well, i think the last thing you want to see publicly right now is one of the formats having their copy protection scheme cracked.  i'm sure it will happen at some point (and may have happened already but i haven't heard about it).  but you don't want to scare off the movie studios now.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2006, 09:08:20 AM »
In thruth it will be at least a year till we really know anything and, as with SACD, if Blu-Ray doesn't take the lead you can bet that Sony will sell out rights to make universal players. Either side would do the latter to salvage what they can.

is it even possible to build a universal deck?  is it possible to have 2 different types of lasers built into the same transport or would they have to build 2 drawer models?  it sure would be nice is somebody came out with a nice bluray/hd-dvd/sacd/dvd-a/dvd/cd deck that incorporated the advanced res audio formats (or at least the ability to get them via firmware update as pioneer is supposedly doing with their bluray deck).

Yes it is.  In fact, BluRay already does this - it has a red laser to play regular DVDs since the blue laser can't read them.


To me, the size argument isn't that big of a deal.  Whats the difference between 3 discs, 4 discs, 5 discs?  They're both going to be 1080p.

If you ask me, the one that will survive is the one thats easiest to crack, copy, and burn.  The first one to make a sub $300 burner and $2-$5 media is gonna rule the market.

well, i think the last thing you want to see publicly right now is one of the formats having their copy protection scheme cracked.  i'm sure it will happen at some point (and may have happened already but i haven't heard about it).  but you don't want to scare off the movie studios now.

DeCSS was out before DVDs hit the mainstream (I don't know how fast it was, but it was done before most stores even carried commercial DVDs) and that didn't stop the studios from supporting DVDs.  BluRay has a mechanism to prevent the cracking of their DRM, though - they can force player updates.  In fact, if you don't accept these updates your player will stop working.  Yet another reason to hope BluRay dies a quick, painful death.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2006, 09:09:37 AM »
The best I've seen in ways of cracking is streaming the 360 HD-DVD drive to a computer and copying the file that way.  You have to have a beefy computer, with lots of hd space and a nice vid card to do it though.  I think the best they've did with BD so far is copying the disc with the ps3 running linux, but they haven't cracked it enough to be able to burn a playable disc.

*shrug*

A universal player will definitely make things take off though, at least thats what I'm waiting for anyway.


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2006, 09:16:51 AM »
The best I've seen in ways of cracking is streaming the 360 HD-DVD drive to a computer and copying the file that way. 

Is that through the component output?  The studios require HD content be transmitted over HDMI only.  Breaking HDCP is not going to be trivial.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2006, 09:26:01 AM »
A universal player will definitely make things take off though, at least thats what I'm waiting for anyway.

Well hope that BluRay starts to really take a hurting, then.  Because if it doesn't there's no way Sony's going to change their licensing. 
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2006, 09:33:57 AM »
is it just Sony though?  i thought bluray was a consortium of multiple manufacturers?  or is sony really controlling it?

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2006, 09:35:31 AM »
is it just Sony though?  i thought bluray was a consortium of multiple manufacturers?  or is sony really controlling it?

Sony is partnered with some other companies, but it's really their baby.  And they have almost full control of the format.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2006, 09:41:00 AM »
i wonder if at some point the other companies will finally sack up and make sony realize how important it is to build a universal player.

of course, i also believe that it will be better for the technology in the long run for a format to be decided upon so that the different manufacturers can compete, bring new features to the market and work independently to perfect one technology over the other.  so i'm not sure really which is the better way to go, to be honest.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2006, 10:53:46 AM »
The best I've seen in ways of cracking is streaming the 360 HD-DVD drive to a computer and copying the file that way. 

Is that through the component output?  The studios require HD content be transmitted over HDMI only.  Breaking HDCP is not going to be trivial.

I was wrong, it looks like you can only get 720p/1080i out of the 360 drive when you transfer it over analog.  Or maybe thats all the guy was trying for, I can't tell.
http://www.jakeludington.com/hddvd/20061203_how_to_copy_hddvds.html

I don't have a 360 or a hd-dvd addon, but I've read that it does 1080p and doesn't have hdmi out.

here's talk about ripping BD on PS3
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/748/748723p1.html


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2006, 07:39:25 AM »
HD-DVD compared to upconverted dvd

I didn't know that HD-DVD uses a new compression format. 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 07:42:20 AM by Ed. »


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2006, 10:02:59 AM »
actually, i thought both formats supports mpeg-2, mpeg-4 and vc-1 and each movie studio chooses which format to master a particular movie in.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2006, 10:31:46 AM »
i still running a fuggin VCR...no joke....still have many movies (shows) on vcr that I watch...
after reading this...i know I am SOO out of the loop on all of this stuff...i just recently got HDTV...loving it...but really only for sports (which is about all i watch anyway, besides movies from netflix)...
I inherited an HDTV set from my father in law, becuase he wanted to go to 1080p (hes an early adopter of everything) so i took his 65 inch pioneer that was only 2 years old...figured i would try HDTV (best 3 months of sports EVAH!)  my DVD player actually sux...but i bought it on rec's for audio anyway (4960)  I cant stand the video coming out...but i am too lazy to switch, or something..cause its been in there a while..but its really showing its ugly head on the new tv...
I cant imagine getting a hd dvd or blueray anytime soon.  infact, other than my father in law (and now me)..i know noone who has HDTV here...I know i am small town, but are these techs really going to take off for mainstream market ever?  I have friends/coworkers who argue DURING THE GAMES at my house, that they can't see enough difference b/w HDTV and reg to justify the costs...(i  switch channels b/w HD and reg..i see it easily)  but this is a common theme...of course..they are all still over EVERY weekend to watch the games on HD... :P
I guess i just don't see it taking off until they stop producing anything in reg DVD format, and FORCE people into the switch...
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2006, 11:01:57 AM »
i know noone who has HDTV here...I know i am small town, but are these techs really going to take off for mainstream market ever?  I have friends/coworkers who argue DURING THE GAMES at my house, that they can't see enough difference b/w HDTV and reg to justify the costs...

Well in 2008 they'll have no choice - they'll have to go digital or buy a converter box.  And if you're going to buy a digital TV, an HDTV isn't that much more expensive.

Then again, I'm guessing cable will still use analog so maybe they wont have to change.  But anyone getting OTA programming will.

I guess i just don't see it taking off until they stop producing anything in reg DVD format, and FORCE people into the switch...

That's not likely to happen for many years (minimum of 5, but I think it's more like 10).
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2006, 01:13:51 PM »
Just to add a little flame to the fire.  I've been really lucky to see a side by side comparison of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.  While the differences are VERY minimal in picture quality the Blu-ray has the smallest of edges on that front.  The two noticeable differences for me were the storage capacity (Blu-Ray wins) and the speed of the player (again Blu-ray wins).  When I say speed I mean how long does it take to put a disc in and start watching a movie. 

While I love the more open licencing of the HD-DVD format that really seems like the strongest feature of the format.  Otherwise Blu-Ray has it beat all around. 

Here is a snippet of a news story on Blu-Ray that addresses licencing as well as who is in on the format.

"The companies that would start disclosing specifications for the Blu-ray Disc format are: Hitachi, Ltd., LG Electronics Inc., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd., PIONEER CORPORATION, Royal Philips Electronics, SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD., SHARP CORPORATION, Sony Corporation, and THOMSON multimedia. The nine companies will be called 'Blu-ray Disc Founders", and they will pursue a broad acceptance of the 'Blu-ray Disc" format. "

I think that distribution will be key.  Right now the two biggest players are the PS3 and XBOX360.  I would suspect that many people are sour on Blu-Ray because the PS3's are so expensive and hard to find.  The HD-DVD sales for the 360 have been very slow as my local BestBuy has had a ton of them the last few days with little indication that they were selling any of them.

The next big test will be courtesy of Dell.   Dell has started shipping their XPS laptops with the Blu-Ray option.  That is a huge distribution channel right there.   Also we'll need to keep an eye on blank media manufactures.  Remember what a big deal dual layer discs were.  Great idea but the discs were just so damn expensive and hard to find. 

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2006, 01:26:43 PM »
Just to add a little flame to the fire.  I've been really lucky to see a side by side comparison of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.  While the differences are VERY minimal in picture quality the Blu-ray has the smallest of edges on that front.  The two noticeable differences for me were the storage capacity (Blu-Ray wins) and the speed of the player (again Blu-ray wins).  When I say speed I mean how long does it take to put a disc in and start watching a movie. 


curious...when you say side by side test...was it the same title on both and was it an HD title or was this a SD DVD being upsampled?  do you happen to know which players they were using?

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2006, 01:57:53 PM »
Just to add a little flame to the fire.  I've been really lucky to see a side by side comparison of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.  While the differences are VERY minimal in picture quality the Blu-ray has the smallest of edges on that front.  The two noticeable differences for me were the storage capacity (Blu-Ray wins) and the speed of the player (again Blu-ray wins).  When I say speed I mean how long does it take to put a disc in and start watching a movie. 


curious...when you say side by side test...was it the same title on both and was it an HD title or was this a SD DVD being upsampled?  do you happen to know which players they were using?

I watched Mission Impossible III from both players.  I don't have the model numbers on the two players but will find out tonight for you.  They were both hooked into a Pioneer PDP-6071HD plasma via HDMI.   It was my understanding that MI:III was/is one of the very few non-upsampled movies out on both formats right now. 

 

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2006, 02:03:02 PM »
Just to add a little flame to the fire.  I've been really lucky to see a side by side comparison of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.  While the differences are VERY minimal in picture quality the Blu-ray has the smallest of edges on that front.  The two noticeable differences for me were the storage capacity (Blu-Ray wins) and the speed of the player (again Blu-ray wins).  When I say speed I mean how long does it take to put a disc in and start watching a movie. 


curious...when you say side by side test...was it the same title on both and was it an HD title or was this a SD DVD being upsampled?  do you happen to know which players they were using?

I watched Mission Impossible III from both players.  I don't have the model numbers on the two players but will find out tonight for you.  They were both hooked into a Pioneer PDP-6071HD plasma via HDMI.   It was my understanding that MI:III was/is one of the very few non-upsampled movies out on both formats right now. 

 

cool...no need to get the models, just curious if you happened to know.  i guess i've heard some mixed things about the first tosh hd-dvd player and i'm not sure if the second gen one is on shelves yet.  didn't realize that any movies had been done in both hd and bluray yet.  thanks for the info.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2006, 02:28:21 PM »
This will drive you crazy from a basketball standpoint Damon!  But seems to be one more plus of blu-ray

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003496311

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2006, 02:45:10 PM »
This will drive you crazy from a basketball standpoint Damon!  But seems to be one more plus of blu-ray

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003496311

Not sure how that relates to Basketball except for the fact that Cuban owns the Mavs.  He doesn't have distribution rights for their games, though...

I think that distribution will be key.  Right now the two biggest players are the PS3 and XBOX360.  I would suspect that many people are sour on Blu-Ray because the PS3's are so expensive and hard to find.  The HD-DVD sales for the 360 have been very slow as my local BestBuy has had a ton of them the last few days with little indication that they were selling any of them.

What your local Best Buy does has nothing to do with how HD-DVD addon sales are going.  Microsoft just released data that says they sold 42,000 of the players in November alone.  I'd say that's pretty good considering it was released a week into the month.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 02:56:45 PM by John Kelly »
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2006, 03:00:38 PM »
This will drive you crazy from a basketball standpoint Damon!  But seems to be one more plus of blu-ray

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003496311

Not sure how that relates to Basketball except for the fact that Cuban owns the Mavs.  He doesn't have distribution rights for their games, though...

I think that distribution will be key.  Right now the two biggest players are the PS3 and XBOX360.  I would suspect that many people are sour on Blu-Ray because the PS3's are so expensive and hard to find.  The HD-DVD sales for the 360 have been very slow as my local BestBuy has had a ton of them the last few days with little indication that they were selling any of them.

What your local Best Buy does has absolutely nothing to do with how HD-DVD addon sales are going.  Microsoft just released data that says they sold 42,000 of the players in November alone.  I'd say that's pretty good. 

The Cuban reference is an inside joke from another thread.

I'd say my local  Best Buy has everything to do with how sales are going.  I live in a somewhat affluent neighborhood with a demographic that is more likely to adopt new technology than other neighborhoods in my area.  Doesn't really matter how many units you're shipping but how many you are selling.  I firmly believe that trying to gauge these two formats by the Xbox and PS3 sales is a big misguided.  These two consoles are still heavily DRM'd for the average consumer. so anything they use on them will be strictly for each respective console.  How many people do you believe will be using either console as their primary movie player of choice.

Back to my local Best Buy though.  It says something to me when you have a pretty large stock of a new technology and what appears to be VERY slow sales on it especially around this time of year at a Best Buy market that is known to adopt new technology faster that other stores..  Microsoft selling 42,000 drives exclusively for the XBOX360 tells us what?  How many people are going to buy a console system for the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?  How many are going to buy a standalone player?  I would venture to guess that standalone sales would FAR outnumber console sales. 

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2006, 03:24:47 PM »
The Cuban reference is an inside joke from another thread.

Gotcha

I'd say my local  Best Buy has everything to do with how sales are going.  I live in a somewhat affluent neighborhood with a demographic that is more likely to adopt new technology than other neighborhoods in my area.  Doesn't really matter how many units you're shipping but how many you are selling.  I firmly believe that trying to gauge these two formats by the Xbox and PS3 sales is a big misguided.  These two consoles are still heavily DRM'd for the average consumer. so anything they use on them will be strictly for each respective console.  How many people do you believe will be using either console as their primary movie player of choice.

As I said, that is *sales,* not shipped units.  And everyone that buys an HD-DVD addon for the XBox does so to use it solely as a movie player.  The same cannot be said for the PS3.

Back to my local Best Buy though.  It says something to me when you have a pretty large stock of a new technology and what appears to be VERY slow sales on it especially around this time of year at a Best Buy market that is known to adopt new technology faster that other stores..  Microsoft selling 42,000 drives exclusively for the XBOX360 tells us what?  How many people are going to buy a console system for the HD-DVD or Blu-Ray?  How many are going to buy a standalone player?  I would venture to guess that standalone sales would FAR outnumber console sales. 

The problem is that you don't have any idea how many were made or how many Best Buy sells and then restocks on the shelves.  You *perceive* slow sales because you see units on the shelves.  However there is no shortage of these drives like there are PS3s.  The fact that you see them on the shelves only says to me that they were mass-produced in sufficient quantities.

I agree with you that neither console will make or break their respective formats.  However, HD-DVD XBox addons should be treated as standalone player sales, since that's all they can be used for.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2006, 06:32:08 PM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's.  whether that means developing a 2 laser system or separate trays or whatever, people are just not going to give up on the number of dvd's that have been sold in this country.  it seems to be the more elegant technology, but unless you can play your dvd's in a blu-ray player, it will remain a niche technology.

as for internet downloads of hd movies, i don't think that's really going to gain a foothold for years.  i just don't see people integrating their computers to that extent.  how many people do you think would really like having PC's sitting in their living room next to their wall-mounted plasmas?  plus, imagine how long it would take to download a 40 gig movie...even if it's cheaper, people would much rather drive to best buy and pick up the movie in 15 minutes than deal with downloading for days, imo.

I have a Sony Blu-ray unit (BDS-S1) and it does play our standard DVD's. The PS3, which is a Blu-ray player, also plays standard DVD's.

I believe the success of Blu-ray is contingent on the success of Sony's PS3. PS3 will (should) be a trojan horse just as PS2 was for DVD. But unless Sony can increase the availability of PS3 they will lose out on both fronts; next-generation HD and next-generation gaming. Nintendo's Wii is proving to be a strong front-runner to both MS Xbox 360 and PS3.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2006, 10:08:44 PM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's.  whether that means developing a 2 laser system or separate trays or whatever, people are just not going to give up on the number of dvd's that have been sold in this country.  it seems to be the more elegant technology, but unless you can play your dvd's in a blu-ray player, it will remain a niche technology.

as for internet downloads of hd movies, i don't think that's really going to gain a foothold for years.  i just don't see people integrating their computers to that extent.  how many people do you think would really like having PC's sitting in their living room next to their wall-mounted plasmas?  plus, imagine how long it would take to download a 40 gig movie...even if it's cheaper, people would much rather drive to best buy and pick up the movie in 15 minutes than deal with downloading for days, imo.

I have a Sony Blu-ray unit (BDS-S1) and it does play our standard DVD's. The PS3, which is a Blu-ray player, also plays standard DVD's.

I believe the success of Blu-ray is contingent on the success of Sony's PS3. PS3 will (should) be a trojan horse just as PS2 was for DVD. But unless Sony can increase the availability of PS3 they will lose out on both fronts; next-generation HD and next-generation gaming. Nintendo's Wii is proving to be a strong front-runner to both MS Xbox 360 and PS3.

Well kinda, the Xbox is well in the lead with 3.4 million consoles sold.  The Wii only has 476,000. ;)
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2006, 10:52:21 PM »
i think the only way blu-ray wins out is if they adapt the technology to be able to play existing dvd's.  whether that means developing a 2 laser system or separate trays or whatever, people are just not going to give up on the number of dvd's that have been sold in this country.  it seems to be the more elegant technology, but unless you can play your dvd's in a blu-ray player, it will remain a niche technology.

as for internet downloads of hd movies, i don't think that's really going to gain a foothold for years.  i just don't see people integrating their computers to that extent.  how many people do you think would really like having PC's sitting in their living room next to their wall-mounted plasmas?  plus, imagine how long it would take to download a 40 gig movie...even if it's cheaper, people would much rather drive to best buy and pick up the movie in 15 minutes than deal with downloading for days, imo.

I have a Sony Blu-ray unit (BDS-S1) and it does play our standard DVD's. The PS3, which is a Blu-ray player, also plays standard DVD's.

I believe the success of Blu-ray is contingent on the success of Sony's PS3. PS3 will (should) be a trojan horse just as PS2 was for DVD. But unless Sony can increase the availability of PS3 they will lose out on both fronts; next-generation HD and next-generation gaming. Nintendo's Wii is proving to be a strong front-runner to both MS Xbox 360 and PS3.

Well kinda, the Xbox is well in the lead with 3.4 million consoles sold.  The Wii only has 476,000. ;)

i think for that stat to be more meaningful, you would need to either compare the xbox sales during the period that the wii has been available, or the xbox sales during its first month against the wii's first month(or however long its been available)

so for the month of Nov, the xbox 360 sold 511,000 (the whole month) while the wii sold 476,000 in the last two weeks alone. 
granted, this is the initial release, and both sold out completely during release...however, I believe with the media behind the wii like it is, whatever it ships to NA in December, it will sell, thus reducing the total sales of the xbox360...i still think the 360 will sell b/w 750k-mil for Dec...less if Nin can ship alot of wii's
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2006, 11:04:46 PM »
thus reducing the total sales of the xbox360

Why?  The PS2 has over 34.8 million consoles sold.  You really mean that if Nintendo hits their 1 million mark for the year there's no room for the 360 to move up???
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2006, 01:44:31 AM »
Just to add a little flame to the fire.  I've been really lucky to see a side by side comparison of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.  While the differences are VERY minimal in picture quality the Blu-ray has the smallest of edges on that front.  The two noticeable differences for me were the storage capacity (Blu-Ray wins) and the speed of the player (again Blu-ray wins).  When I say speed I mean how long does it take to put a disc in and start watching a movie. 


curious...when you say side by side test...was it the same title on both and was it an HD title or was this a SD DVD being upsampled?  do you happen to know which players they were using?

I watched Mission Impossible III from both players.  I don't have the model numbers on the two players but will find out tonight for you.  They were both hooked into a Pioneer PDP-6071HD plasma via HDMI.   It was my understanding that MI:III was/is one of the very few non-upsampled movies out on both formats right now. 

 

cool...no need to get the models, just curious if you happened to know.  i guess i've heard some mixed things about the first tosh hd-dvd player and i'm not sure if the second gen one is on shelves yet.  didn't realize that any movies had been done in both hd and bluray yet.  thanks for the info.

The first Toshiba player was... well...........s....l....o....w....e....r...........t....h....a....n.........c.....r.....a......p.......

Put the disc in, go take a shower and, if you are lucky, the menu will be up. We are expecting our first batch of the 2nd gen players on 12/28. We'll see if they are any better in that regard but at least they will have HDMI 1.2 so they willl display 1080p.

The PS3, while obviously having supply issues still had it's initial US shipment of 400,000 pretty much sold out before the shipping containers hit the shore. I guess you could argue that those buying the unit are not going to watch Blu-Ray movies with 100% certainty but, on the other hand, how many of those 400,000 people do you think will go out and buy HD-DVD players?
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2006, 06:09:47 AM »
Just to add a little flame to the fire.  I've been really lucky to see a side by side comparison of both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.  While the differences are VERY minimal in picture quality the Blu-ray has the smallest of edges on that front.  The two noticeable differences for me were the storage capacity (Blu-Ray wins) and the speed of the player (again Blu-ray wins).  When I say speed I mean how long does it take to put a disc in and start watching a movie. 


curious...when you say side by side test...was it the same title on both and was it an HD title or was this a SD DVD being upsampled?  do you happen to know which players they were using?

I watched Mission Impossible III from both players.  I don't have the model numbers on the two players but will find out tonight for you.  They were both hooked into a Pioneer PDP-6071HD plasma via HDMI.   It was my understanding that MI:III was/is one of the very few non-upsampled movies out on both formats right now. 

 

cool...no need to get the models, just curious if you happened to know.  i guess i've heard some mixed things about the first tosh hd-dvd player and i'm not sure if the second gen one is on shelves yet.  didn't realize that any movies had been done in both hd and bluray yet.  thanks for the info.

The first Toshiba player was... well...........s....l....o....w....e....r...........t....h....a....n.........c.....r.....a......p.......

Put the disc in, go take a shower and, if you are lucky, the menu will be up. We are expecting our first batch of the 2nd gen players on 12/28. We'll see if they are any better in that regard but at least they will have HDMI 1.2 so they willl display 1080p.

The PS3, while obviously having supply issues still had it's initial US shipment of 400,000 pretty much sold out before the shipping containers hit the shore. I guess you could argue that those buying the unit are not going to watch Blu-Ray movies with 100% certainty but, on the other hand, how many of those 400,000 people do you think will go out and buy HD-DVD players?

Actually they still haven't even hit 200,000 yet.  Official number is 176,000.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2006, 08:04:09 AM »
thus reducing the total sales of the xbox360

Why?  The PS2 has over 34.8 million consoles sold.  You really mean that if Nintendo hits their 1 million mark for the year there's no room for the 360 to move up???

in how many years?(and how many were rebuys b/c the drives wouldnt work any longer? - I know TONS were)  MOST people arent going to buy both units for christmas (hell alot of people can't afford either), they will make a choice b/w the two...if the wii is available, IMHO, people will go for that for several reasons, the biggest being the price, the second being the media craze around it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 08:09:38 AM by RaZoRbAcK »
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2006, 08:43:28 AM »
thus reducing the total sales of the xbox360

Why?  The PS2 has over 34.8 million consoles sold.  You really mean that if Nintendo hits their 1 million mark for the year there's no room for the 360 to move up???

in how many years?(and how many were rebuys b/c the drives wouldnt work any longer? - I know TONS were)  MOST people arent going to buy both units for christmas (hell alot of people can't afford either), they will make a choice b/w the two...if the wii is available, IMHO, people will go for that for several reasons, the biggest being the price, the second being the media craze around it.

My point is that the market is bigger than the ~1 million units that Nintendo is going to ship by the end of the year, so there's no reason to think that the Wii will make 360 sales go down (especially considering MS has been announcing record sales so far).
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2006, 08:50:27 AM »
I think so too...i just think that the more wii's that are available, the less 360's sell...i still think they hit 3/4 mil regardless..but i dont think they top the million mark if wii's are available
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2006, 09:11:28 AM »
HD-DVD will win, because Sony is behind Blu-ray.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2006, 10:01:49 AM »
HD-DVD will win, because Sony is behind Blu-ray.

Incontrovertable proof! Case closed!  :P
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2006, 10:27:48 AM »
HD-DVD will win, because Sony is behind Blu-ray.

Incontrovertable proof! Case closed!  :P

Actually it's probably not too far off.  Lets look at the past:
BetaMax
MiniDisc
Memory Sticks
UMD
ATRAC

Their track record aint so great in this area. ;)
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2006, 11:30:18 AM »
Digital8
the 3" DVD
Digital Cameras that write to floppies
that goddamn 7 pin cable...
there's plenty more that we're not thinking of.

SACD? Time will Tell.




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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2006, 01:09:22 PM »
Digital8
the 3" DVD
Digital Cameras that write to floppies
that goddamn 7 pin cable...
there's plenty more that we're not thinking of.

SACD? Time will Tell.

Hey now, I have a Digital 8 camera. ;)  And in reality they're just digital recordings on 8mm tapes - a very cost effective way to go digital when DV was new and expensive.

And that 3" DVD isn't a Sony thing...
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2006, 01:36:25 PM »
i have one too. sure wish it was mini-dv tho.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2006, 01:58:37 PM »
i have one too. sure wish it was mini-dv tho.

Oh I have one, but I don't use it anymore.  I upgraded a while ago. ;)
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2006, 02:53:47 PM »
speaking of which, i need a bigger battery for mine. on the christmas list it goes.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2006, 09:03:20 AM »
cracked:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/aacs-drm-cracked-by-backuphddvd-tool/


I also hear that Samsung is considering making a dual format player.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 09:06:24 AM by Ed. »


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2006, 09:20:34 AM »
cracked:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/aacs-drm-cracked-by-backuphddvd-tool/


I also hear that Samsung is considering making a dual format player.

HD-DVD being cracked pretty much assures it winning this "war" unless BluRay is cracked soon.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2006, 10:54:27 AM »
from the article...

"If true, this would instantly become the DeCSS of high def optical (where you at, Jon?), as AACS is the copy protection scheme used not only by HD DVD, but by Blu-ray as well."

Looks like Blu-Ray could be 'cracked' based on this.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2006, 12:22:12 PM »
i bet they'll both be cracked shortly, if they're not already.

If the dual format player comes out, I'd call the war over.  that way both formats will coexist, just over time hd dvd will trump blu ray. :P


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2006, 12:38:16 PM »
I was reading something that made a lot of sense to me - there really is no war going on.  The studios are supporting different formats exclusively, so you cannot go get the same movie on both formats.  So since there really are no competing titles, there is no war. 

Once a dual-format player comes out (if it does) the "war" will be over, as people will just buy for content instead of for a particular format.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2006, 12:54:37 PM »
some movies are still showing up in both formats, but most are exclusive.

here's a list of some of the best and worst discs out this year:
http://www.highdefdigest.com/feature_best_high_def_discs_of_2006.html


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2006, 01:04:23 PM »
some movies are still showing up in both formats, but most are exclusive.

Yeah?  Have any examples?
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Offline pjdavep

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2006, 01:40:51 PM »
some movies are still showing up in both formats, but most are exclusive.

Yeah?  Have any examples?

Superman Returns, Corpse Bride, Italian Job, Last Samuri, U2: Rattle & Hum...

Most of Warner's titles will be dual releases, but some have only been released in one format (Batman Begins is only HD-DVD).  Paramount is the other studio that claims they will produce releases in both formats.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2006, 01:55:07 PM »
some movies are still showing up in both formats, but most are exclusive.

Yeah?  Have any examples?

Superman Returns, Corpse Bride, Italian Job, Last Samuri, U2: Rattle & Hum...

Most of Warner's titles will be dual releases, but some have only been released in one format (Batman Begins is only HD-DVD).  Paramount is the other studio that claims they will produce releases in both formats.

Later,
  pjdavep

Ah gotcha.  Thanks!
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2006, 03:32:49 PM »
seems like this will end up in a war of sorts with corporate battle lines being drawn...

Blu-ray Support

Blu-ray is supported on the hardware side by Hitachi, LG, Matsushita (Panasonic), Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, HP, Dell, Apple, TDK, and Thomson (Note: Thomson also supports HD-DVD). On the software side, Blu-ray is supported by Twentieth Century Fox, Walt Disney Studios, MGM, Paramount (also supports HD-DVD) and Warner (also supports HD-DVD). Apple Computer has also announced support for Blu-ray.

HD-DVD Support

HD-DVD is supported on the hardware side by Toshiba, NEC, Sanyo, Thomson (Note: Thomson also supports Blu-ray). On the software side, HD-DVD is supported by New Line Cinema, Paramount Pictures (also supports Blu-ray), Paramount (also supports Blu-ray), and Universal Pictures. Microsoft has also added its support to HD-DVD.

Seems like from the hardware side, Blu-Ray would be victorious based on the companies supporting the format.  But the software side seems like Microsoft (HD-DVD) vs. Apple (Blu-Ray)  [what a shock]
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 03:36:48 PM by songsoffreedom »
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2006, 03:57:38 PM »
samsung and (i think) LG have been talking about releasing a dual format player that could write and read both formats.

Its pretty much just a matter of time.


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2007, 01:49:33 PM »
also, down the line, it looks like a new disc that will play in either blu-ray plays or HD-DVD players...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/04/technology/04video.html

Quote
New Disc May Sway DVD Wars

Consumers wary of buying new high-definition DVD players because of a technology war reminiscent of the days of Betamax versus VHS will soon have a new kind of DVD that might make the decision less daunting.

Warner Brothers, which helped popularize the DVD more than a decade ago, plans to announce next week a single videodisc that can play films and television programs in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD, the rival DVD technologies.

Warner Brothers, a division of Time Warner, plans to formally announce the new disc, which it is calling a Total HD disc, at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas on Tuesday.

Two rival camps introduced high-definition DVD players last year: a consortium called Blu-ray, backed by Sony and others, and a group called HD-DVD, backed by Toshiba and Microsoft. Retail and media executives say this clash of corporate titans and their incompatible machines has left some consumers bewildered and has slowed the introduction of what is intended to be the next great thing in home entertainment.

Executives at Time Warner and its Hollywood subsidiary hope to spur sales of new DVD players and movies by gaining the support of retailers and cajoling rival studios into making their film and television libraries available in both formats on a single disc.

In addition to reviving the ghost of the war that marked the introduction of videocassettes in the 1980s, the high-definition battle has been exacerbated by the decision of several major studios to support only one of the technologies.

Thus, for instance, a copy of 20th Century Fox’s “Ice Age: The Meltdown” is available only on Blu-ray, while Universal’s “The Break-Up” can be viewed only on a disc and player built with HD-DVD technology.

Barry M. Meyer, the chairman and chief executive of Warner Brothers, said in an interview that the company came up with the Total HD disc after concluding that neither Blu-ray nor HD-DVD was going the way of Betamax anytime soon.

“The next best thing is to recognize that there will be two formats and to make that not a negative for the consumer,” Mr. Meyer said. “We felt that the most significant constituency for us to satisfy was the consumer first, and the retailer second. The retailer wants to sell hardware and doesn’t want to be forced into stocking two formats for everything. This is ideal for them.”

In a world besotted with gadgetry, few consumer products have generated as much excitement — and head-scratching — as high-definition television. Flat-screen, high-definition TVs have been flying off the shelves for the last year and are now as common in homes as coffee pots. Yet few people are actually watching superclear high-definition programming.

Part of the disconnect is the lack of high-definition programming on cable and satellite television, and the additional outlay for decoder boxes and premium channels needed to get it. The rival movie player technologies have further blurred the outlook for high definition. Richard Greenfield, an analyst at Pali Capital, predicted in a recent report that this would be the first year since the introduction of the DVD that consumer spending on the discs would decline, putting pressure on the studios that rely heavily on them for profits.

For now, Sony; Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, which is owned by private equity firms in partnership with the Comcast Corporation and Sony; 20th Century Fox, a division of the News Corporation; and Walt Disney Pictures are all exclusively releasing their DVDs in Blu-ray.

Universal Studios, which is owned by General Electric, is releasing only in HD-DVD. Warner and Paramount Pictures, a division of Viacom, are issuing DVDs in both formats.

Behind these allegiances are complex strategic questions revolving around everything from manufacturing costs to profit margins, debates over each format’s technical strengths and weaknesses, and how these players relate to Microsoft and Sony’s video-game strategies.

(Blu-ray players are built into the new Sony PlayStation 3, while Microsoft is selling HD-DVD drives that attach to its Xbox 360.)

Another wrinkle is plans by LG Electronics, and possibly other gadget makers attending the Las Vegas conference, to announce new DVD players with drives for both formats; however, such players will most likely be initially more expensive than other players.

Jeffrey L. Bewkes, the president of Time Warner, said the Total HD disc has a better chance of catching on than dual players. Research commissioned by Warner indicates that consumers are willing to pay several dollars more than current high-definition DVDs for a disc that works on both players. At the Web site for Best Buy, Warner’s “Superman Returns” DVD was selling yesterday for $19.99 in its standard format, $29.99 for Blu-ray and $34.99 for HD-DVD.

Still, it is not clear whether news of Warner’s Total HD disc would convince the studio heads who are backing one format or the other to release their wares in both. Sony, of course, has placed a big bet on Blu-ray’s success and does not want to relive the sting of Betamax’s defeat. The number of studios committed solely to Blu-ray has been seen as a competitive edge, particularly because HD-DVD came to market several months ahead of Blu-ray.

And HD-DVD’s boosters say they doubt gaming fans who have been snapping up the just-introduced PlayStation 3 will take advantage of its built-in Blu-ray player and buy movies as well as video games.

In recent interviews, executives at Fox and Disney were unequivocal in their support for Blu-ray. They said they believed that releasing DVDs in both formats would only prolong confusion and the emergence of a winning format. “I think the fastest way to end the format war is through decisiveness and strength,” said Bob Chapek, the president of Buena Vista Worldwide Entertainment, the home video arm of Walt Disney.

Like other Blu-ray proponents and partners, Mr. Chapek said that he favors Blu-ray because of its greater storage capacity and other attributes. HD-DVD offers the same vivid picture by storing less information on its disc, which means fewer minutes of video and other features. However, among its perceived advantages, HD-DVD players are less expensive.

Because of manufacturing complexities, the Total HD disc will not contain a standard format version, said Kevin Tsujihara, the president of Warner Brothers Home Entertainment Group. However, several months ago the company filed patents for a new disc incorporating all three formats, which it could produce in the future.

Mr. Tsujihara described the new disc as an elegant way for studios to make their content available more widely “in a way that is not conceding defeat” for the format they have been backing.

In the short term, Total HD would actually add to the number of formats retailers will have to stock, raising it from three to four. However, Irynne V. MacKay, senior vice president for entertainment products at Circuit City, said she supported the idea because it took pressure off consumers puzzling over which format to invest in. “The simpler the future is for us, the better,” said Ms. MacKay.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2007, 08:44:49 AM »
I have a HD-DVD and bluray drive via my 360 and ps3...so far bluray needs to seriously get their act together in the video quality department. I have watched about 10 bluray movies and 10 HD-DVD movies and so far I am finding the video quality of bluray to be very inconsistant with parts of movies that look fantastic followed by parts that are so filled with grain and artifacts its distracting. HD-DVD has a much more vibrant and consistant picture. Many have said that its because bluray is using older video codex's...but even on the newer VC-1 encoded blurays the picture quality is inferior to HD-DVD....what good is more storage space if the video sucks?
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Offline dmonterisi

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #80 on: January 14, 2007, 09:45:05 AM »
I have a HD-DVD and bluray drive via my 360 and ps3...so far bluray needs to seriously get their act together in the video quality department. I have watched about 10 bluray movies and 10 HD-DVD movies and so far I am finding the video quality of bluray to be very inconsistant with parts of movies that look fantastic followed by parts that are so filled with grain and artifacts its distracting. HD-DVD has a much more vibrant and consistant picture. Many have said that its because bluray is using older video codex's...but even on the newer VC-1 encoded blurays the picture quality is inferior to HD-DVD....what good is more storage space if the video sucks?

well, i haven't seen either a BD or HD-DVD movie (outside of a store demo) yet, but i would say that your results based on the PS3 may not be completely indicative of the technology.  the video components in the PS3 are not going to be of the same level as a dedicated player.  It's just too high-ticket of an item to cram into a gaming console and expect the performance to rival dedicated decks.  additionally, a guy in the sony store told me there have been problems with the BD drives built into the PS3's.  I'm not sure what he's referring to, but watching a BD movie in a PS3 just doesn't seem to me to get the most out of the format.  my 2 cents.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #81 on: January 14, 2007, 09:52:36 AM »
I have a HD-DVD and bluray drive via my 360 and ps3...so far bluray needs to seriously get their act together in the video quality department. I have watched about 10 bluray movies and 10 HD-DVD movies and so far I am finding the video quality of bluray to be very inconsistant with parts of movies that look fantastic followed by parts that are so filled with grain and artifacts its distracting. HD-DVD has a much more vibrant and consistant picture. Many have said that its because bluray is using older video codex's...but even on the newer VC-1 encoded blurays the picture quality is inferior to HD-DVD....what good is more storage space if the video sucks?

well, i haven't seen either a BD or HD-DVD movie (outside of a store demo) yet, but i would say that your results based on the PS3 may not be completely indicative of the technology.  the video components in the PS3 are not going to be of the same level as a dedicated player.  It's just too high-ticket of an item to cram into a gaming console and expect the performance to rival dedicated decks.  additionally, a guy in the sony store told me there have been problems with the BD drives built into the PS3's.  I'm not sure what he's referring to, but watching a BD movie in a PS3 just doesn't seem to me to get the most out of the format.  my 2 cents.

I don't think the problem is the PS3.  It's been getting great reviews as a BluRay player. 

My guess is that the problem is with the movies themselves.  A lot of the movies out there now are created from poor sources resulting in a lot of grain on the HD discs.  Superman Returns is noted as looking better on DVD than it does on HD-DVD or BluRay.  Batman Begins also has some issues with the black levels, resulting in a lot of macroblocking.

Also HD-DVDs are using Microsoft's VC1 codec by default.  BluRay discs can use VC1, but most are using higher resolution mpeg2.
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Offline creekfreak

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2007, 10:30:52 AM »
Correct, the PS3 has scored higher marks than many of the current standalone players available. Its a format issue, not a ps3 issue...the codex they use on most of the bluray movies is old, they have started to use VC-1 on some bluray, but they still don't look as good as the VC-1 encoded HD-DVD's.....bluray is like VHS, more capacity, but poorer quality than the competing format, just as betamax offered better quality than VHS. It seems that capacity wins out and its too bad...but HD-DVD will soon be able to fit more than bluray so hopefully the capacity issue will me moot.
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2007, 01:52:57 PM »

My guess is that the problem is with the movies themselves.  A lot of the movies out there now are created from poor sources resulting in a lot of grain on the HD discs.

Bingo!  Both camps are in such a rush to market that the conversions for alot of these movies are just horrible.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2007, 03:16:45 PM »

My guess is that the problem is with the movies themselves.  A lot of the movies out there now are created from poor sources resulting in a lot of grain on the HD discs.

Bingo!  Both camps are in such a rush to market that the conversions for alot of these movies are just horrible.


big issue with bluray...HD-DVD's are far better for the most part, but they do have a few duds also....so much is in the transfer and how it is done
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2007, 03:23:05 PM »

My guess is that the problem is with the movies themselves.  A lot of the movies out there now are created from poor sources resulting in a lot of grain on the HD discs.

Bingo!  Both camps are in such a rush to market that the conversions for alot of these movies are just horrible.


big issue with bluray...HD-DVD's are far better for the most part, but they do have a few duds also....so much is in the transfer and how it is done

I'm a little confused.  Other than poor poor movie transfers how is HD-DVD "better for the most part?'

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2007, 03:34:06 PM »
I read on /. that the Pr0n industry is getting behing HD-DVD. Sony doesnt want Pr0n on Bly-ray.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2007, 03:44:58 PM »

My guess is that the problem is with the movies themselves.  A lot of the movies out there now are created from poor sources resulting in a lot of grain on the HD discs.

Bingo!  Both camps are in such a rush to market that the conversions for alot of these movies are just horrible.


big issue with bluray...HD-DVD's are far better for the most part, but they do have a few duds also....so much is in the transfer and how it is done

I'm a little confused.  Other than poor poor movie transfers how is HD-DVD "better for the most part?'

The interactive extras are (IMO) better than the offerings on BluRay.  Having a second video processor to play multiple streams of video at once (for instance, a video commentary track over a movie) is something BluRay cannot do.  But other than that BluRay has the edge.

I read on /. that the Pr0n industry is getting behing HD-DVD. Sony doesnt want Pr0n on Bly-ray.

That's not entirely true.  Sony wont replicate pornography at their BluRay replication facilities.  However they cannot ban pornography from the format.

The problem is that BluRay replication right now is *VERY* expensive, so only the high end movie studios can afford them.  Sony is the largest replicator of BluRay discs, so if they wont replicate them you'd have a hard time getting your movie on BluRay.  HD-DVD, on the other hand, is quite cheap to make.  Apparently most DVD replication facilities can convert to HD-DVD for very little cost.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2007, 10:03:36 PM »

My guess is that the problem is with the movies themselves.  A lot of the movies out there now are created from poor sources resulting in a lot of grain on the HD discs.

Bingo!  Both camps are in such a rush to market that the conversions for alot of these movies are just horrible.


big issue with bluray...HD-DVD's are far better for the most part, but they do have a few duds also....so much is in the transfer and how it is done

I'm a little confused.  Other than poor poor movie transfers how is HD-DVD "better for the most part?'

As John said better menu's, which sounds like it is not important, but the way HD-DVD is one with the interface is really cool. Video quality is better, and since HD-DVD is backed by the same tech that did DVD you can also get hybrid disks that have the DVD and HD-DVD on one disc. Bluray has one advantage, storage space, but once the new triple layer HD-DVD's come out that can hold 50GB that will be an advantage bluray will not have.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2007, 07:54:21 AM »

My guess is that the problem is with the movies themselves.  A lot of the movies out there now are created from poor sources resulting in a lot of grain on the HD discs.

Bingo!  Both camps are in such a rush to market that the conversions for alot of these movies are just horrible.


big issue with bluray...HD-DVD's are far better for the most part, but they do have a few duds also....so much is in the transfer and how it is done

I'm a little confused.  Other than poor poor movie transfers how is HD-DVD "better for the most part?'

As John said better menu's, which sounds like it is not important, but the way HD-DVD is one with the interface is really cool. Video quality is better, and since HD-DVD is backed by the same tech that did DVD you can also get hybrid disks that have the DVD and HD-DVD on one disc. Bluray has one advantage, storage space, but once the new triple layer HD-DVD's come out that can hold 50GB that will be an advantage bluray will not have.

The problem is the triple layer HD-DVDs probably wont play on current players, and there's no current plans to bring them to the market anyway.  And the HD-DVD/DVD on one disc is just a double sided disc, which BluRay could do as well - they just choose not to.

Technology-wise BluRay is the clear winner, no questions.  But since Sony's backing it I'm rooting for HD-DVD. ;D
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2007, 04:05:26 PM »
so you equate better technology to more storage space?

I agree with you on Sony though...I can't stand most of the formats they back.

I will take superior audio and video over storage space any day of the week...any die hard taper would believe in that ;D
It is company policy never to imply ownership in the event of a dildo - We have to use the indefinite article; "A" dildo, never: "YOUR" dildo.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2007, 05:29:08 PM »
so you equate better technology to more storage space?

I agree with you on Sony though...I can't stand most of the formats they back.

I will take superior audio and video over storage space any day of the week...any die hard taper would believe in that ;D

The video and audio are technically equal on both formats.  I shouldn't say they're technically equal.  BluRay can use the same codecs HD-DVD does, plus some additional codecs it can't.  So the video compression technology is equal.  However, with the larger storage space, BluRay *should* get better picture quality due to the larger bitrates they can use.

Just because current examples of BluRay aren't better doesn't mean the format isn't inherently better. ;)


(edited for clarification)
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2007, 05:38:57 PM »
from everything I've read, HD-DVD is beating out bluray.

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

In my opinion, I see bluray going the way of betamax, md, memorystick, and everything else propriety that sony makes.

porn is set to kill bluray, claiming media is to expensive and not able to make multiple copies.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2007, 11:09:53 AM »
its coming:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/30/lg-bh100-hd-dvd-blu-ray-hybrid-player-reviewed/

now we just have to wait for it to get better...and cheaper.


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Offline scervin

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #94 on: February 01, 2007, 12:05:23 PM »
While the LG doens't have all the features it is a start.  Only advantage to HDMI 1.3 will be the color.  The audio will be the same as the player must do the decoding.  Current HDMI will pass along this info.  The review seemed to be based on subjective evaluation.  Was the picture calibrated?  Pass BTB WTW? 

Again, it is a start!

Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2007, 03:00:38 PM »
Score one for Blu-ray

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Adult-film-company-secures-Blu-ray-replicating-company.html


Adult film company secures Blu-ray replicating company

Despite Blu-ray appearing like it was going to lack adult movies, at least outside of Japan, Vivid Entertainment Group is now set to be the first adult-film maker to release its content on Blu-ray Disc, according to Digit Online.  However, they are not mentioning which provider they are using to replicate its Blu-ray titles, particularly with how difficult it was for them to finally find one in the first place.  So far, most adult film makers have resorted to sticking with the rival HD DVD format after having no success in getting any Blu-ray company to replicate their discs.

There are currently eight companies involved in Blu-ray disc replication world wide.  Unfortunately, two are controlled by Sony and are not allowed to replicate adult films.  Another five are have contracts with Walt Disney and say that they they will not work replicate adult films as a result.  With just one left over, Vivid Entertainment is not going to give away the name in order to give it the competitive advantage, not to mention being one of the leading adult film companies.

Unfortunately due to Vivid mentioning that the Blu-ray format is extremely expensive to work with at three times the cost of HD DVD to replicate and four times to author, they will closely watch the sales of one of its first Blu-ray title that will be avaliable on both formats to see how Blu-ray sales compares with the HD DVD version.  If the Blu-ray format turns out to be a failure, they will end its use.  On the other hand, if Blu-ray proves successful, they plan on releasing four more adult films this year on the Blu-ray format.  Vivid decided to take a chance with the Blu-ray format due to strong Blu-ray disc player demand, helped with 2 million PS3 game console sales, with each console doubling up as a Blu-ray disc player.

Offline dunebug81

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2007, 08:37:59 PM »
Just like video games for new video game systems it takes about a year for the game designers to realize the full potential of the new hardware the same is true for HD-DVD/BD.  The more recent titles for both formats look better then the older titles. 

Ive got both PS3 and Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD drive and id say that neither looks that much better then the other.  If there is a choice between blu-ray and hd-dvd i pick blu-ray cause the ps3 is really quiet where the damn xbox sounds like its got a 4 cyl. engine inside it...not to mention the xbox remote just sucks.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2007, 09:53:01 AM »
Just like video games for new video game systems it takes about a year for the game designers to realize the full potential of the new hardware the same is true for HD-DVD/BD.  The more recent titles for both formats look better then the older titles. 

Ive got both PS3 and Xbox 360 w/ HD-DVD drive and id say that neither looks that much better then the other.  If there is a choice between blu-ray and hd-dvd i pick blu-ray cause the ps3 is really quiet where the damn xbox sounds like its got a 4 cyl. engine inside it...not to mention the xbox remote just sucks.

My XBox remote is great - it's a logitech harmony. ;)

I really wish the PS3 would've come with IR built in.  As it stands you can't use universal remotes with the PS3, and that just sucks considering how good of a video player it is.
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2007, 01:19:15 PM »
Sorry to keep bringing up new stories for the format wars but this one really surprised me.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Blu-ray--HD-DVD-replication--setup-fees-compared.html

Blu-ray & HD DVD replication & setup fees compared


When it comes to replicating high definition content, there has been quite a lot of publicity about Blu-ray costing a lot more than HD DVD to replicate in bulk, mainly put down to Blu-ray’s design that makes it impossible to modify existing DVD stamping equipment to replicate Blu-ray discs with.  Even the adult film makers have been complaining about Blu-ray's costs.  However, one thing that has not been made clear is how much of a difference there really is between the two competing formats.  Well, Wes at WesleyTech went to investigate by contacting a few optical disc industry contacts and published an article with some very interesting results:

The first plant (kept confidential) which replicates both formats mentioned it costs $1.15 per 15GB HD DVD and $1.30 per 25GB Blu-ray disc based on a quantity of 25,000.  DVDs cost $0.50 per Dual Layer disc for the same quantity at this plant.  While Blu-ray looks more expensive to start with, let's not forget the capacity difference, where a single layer Blu-ray disc is closer to a Dual Layer HD DVD disc capacity.  At the second plant, which produces Blu-ray only, he was quoted $1.35 to $1.45 per disc based on a quantity of at least 25,000.  They also do 50GB Dual Layer Blu-ray disc replication at $2.15 to $2.25 per disc also based on a quantity of 25,000.

The third company, ProActionMedia makes their pricing publicly and while their pricing is more expensive than the first two plants Wes contacted, it clearly shows the difference between Blu-ray & HD DVD disc replication publicly on their Website.  For a quantity of 25,000 discs, ProActionMedia charges $1.45 per 15GB HD DVD disc and $1.59 per Blu-ray disc.  However, as a Single Layer HD DVD is not enough for some movies, the movie industry often has content replicated on dual layer HD DVD, which costs $1.69 per disc based on a 25,000 quantity from this replication company.

Finally, one interesting point Wes makes about the replication costs is that most HD movies are replicated on Dual Layer HD DVD and Single Layer Blu-ray media.  As a result, it actually works out move expensive to replicate movies on HD DVD in most situations.  Of course, this does not include setup fees and other costs such as authoring, AACS copy protection, packaging, etc.  As a result, these extra costs will need to be added to the replication costs.

At this stage, some would ask just how much the setup costs would be.  Well, Wes had a look into this by contacting his first plant again and published another article comparing the difference of the two.  Apparently for a replication of a large quantity of discs, the plants normally waive the mastering fee.  As the studios typically use 30GB Dual Layer HD DVD and 25GB Single Layer Blu-ray media, let's take a look at the fees for these:  The plant charges $3,000 for 30GB Dual Layer HD DVD and $2,500 for 25GB Single Layer Blu-ray media in setup costs and $1.30 per disc of either of these two formats based on a quantity of 5,000.  So for this small quantity, HD DVD works out cheaper when the setup fee is taken into account, assuming the studio can manage with Blu-ray's 25GB capacity limit for its Single Layer format.  Even for larger quantities where the setup fee is waived, both these two formats work out at the same price from this plant.

So in the end, while Dual Layer Blu-ray replication costs more to setup and replicate than Dual Layer HD DVD, most movies do not need to avail of Blu-ray's Dual Layer capacity.  Even if a movie does need Blu-ray's Dual Layer 50GB capacity, then if the studio decided to also release it on HD DVD, they would either need to either reduce the quality to fit on a 30GB Dual Layer HD DVD or release two HD DVD discs to retain the quality, not to mention the extra costs associated with two HD DVD discs instead of a single Blu-ray disc!

Further information, including cost tables can be accessed in this replication cost article and in this setup fee cost article; both on WesleyTech.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2007, 09:44:57 AM »
http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/13/hackers-discover-hd-dvd-and-blu-ray-processing-key-all-hd-t/


Hackers discover HD DVD and Blu-ray "processing key" -- all HD titles now exposed

Posted Feb 13th 2007 7:46AM by Thomas Ricker
Filed under: HDTV
Those cooky kids over at the Doom9 forums hate themselves some DRM. Not more than two months after discovering a means to extract the HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc "volume keys" to decrypt AACS DRM on individual films, we're now getting word that DRM hacker arnezami has found the "processing key" used to decrypt the DRM on all HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc films. Let's break this down for what it is: instead of needing individual keys for each and every high-definition film -- of which there are many -- the processing key can be used to unlock, decrypt, and backup every HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc film released so far. As arnezami points out, "nothing was actually hacked, cracked or even reverse engineered." All he had to do was keep an eye on his memory, watch what changed, and voila... the processing key appeared. So kick back and watch the trickle of HD titles hitting the torrents quickly turn into a flood (at ~20GB a pop, that's not an exaggeration) when the BackupHDDVD and BackupBluray utilities (or AnyDVD HD) are updated to reflect the new hack find.



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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2007, 10:18:01 AM »
I love hackers.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline dunebug81

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2007, 08:25:39 PM »
Thats cool and all but how much are blank HD-DVD/BD discs?  I guess for the pirate it doesnt matter as long as he's not be held down by "the man"

20+GB torrents would be mighty hard to keep a decent share ratio going.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2007, 08:39:10 PM »
Thats cool and all but how much are blank HD-DVD/BD discs?  I guess for the pirate it doesnt matter as long as he's not be held down by "the man"

20+GB torrents would be mighty hard to keep a decent share ratio going.

I think BluRay discs were $20 last time I was at Best Buy.

And I tend to get the best share ratio with large torrents - it's the small ones that kill me. ;)
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2007, 09:59:20 PM »
give it time, media will drop once the players start dropping.  it'll all come together. 


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2007, 10:53:12 PM »
give it time, media will drop once the players start dropping.  it'll all come together. 

Yep.  DVD-Rs were the same price at one point.
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2007, 12:24:47 AM »
give it time, media will drop once the players start dropping.  it'll all come together. 

I thought the same about dual layer DVD's and unfortunately they're still not cheap.   :(

Offline dunebug81

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2007, 01:21:16 AM »
give it time, media will drop once the players start dropping.  it'll all come together. 

I thought the same about dual layer DVD's and unfortunately they're still not cheap.   :(

If you keep an eye out you can find good quality ones for about $1.50 a disc.
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Offline rasta

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2007, 10:54:57 PM »
I spoke to a PS3 rep at sony and he said they were going to release a firmware update in a couple of months alowing it to upscale DVD's.
4023>m148>722

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #108 on: April 04, 2007, 12:48:51 PM »
http://www.gamerawr.com/2007/03/27/current-blu-ray-players-obsolete-by-october/

Quote
Here’s the deal. Blu-ray was rushed out the door in order to stay competitive with HD DVD. The Blu-ray Disc Association has only recently finalized the formats specifications, which most current players do not conform to. This includes the Playstation 3, and all of Sony’s own Blu-ray players. The lacking features include PIP support, part of BD-Java technology. Many players that even support BD-Java, do not support picture in picture.

What I find most humorous is that Crank and The Descent placed two versions of the film on the disc, one with and one without PIP, to get around the limitations. Although a creative workaround, it hinders the bit rate and space for bonus features.

After October 31, 2007, picture-in-picture (via BD-J) will be mandatory for players to carry the Blu-ray logo. New specification requirements also include 256MB of persistent memory storage, and a required 1GB for players with an internet connection. This new memory requirement is also part of the BD-J picture-in-picture spec.

So what does this mean for your current Blu-ray player? A simple firmware update, right? Well, a firmware update obviously won’t give you memory that isn’t already there. Andy Parsons, senior VP of advanced product development at Pioneer Electronics, believes picture-in-picture is too complicated to be fixed with an update.

Blu-ray playerGiven the nature of the PS3s hardware, it’s reasonable to assume PIP will eventually be supported. Other players wont be so lucky. What is likely to affect all Blu-ray users is the content. With such diverse hardware, it will be very tricky for content providers to provide a common user experience from one player to the next. PIP and other premium content may be skipped since it wont be usable for all customers.

Even if your Blu-ray player isn’t up to spec, it is promised you will be able to watch all Blu-ray discs in the most basic form. But come on, half of this HD marketing mumbo-jumbo is not just the superb picture quality, but the next-gen viewing experience.

There is always a price to pay for being an early adopter, but is this going a little too far? It’s not a matter of the specification changing, but it was clearly never finalized when the first players shipped. Many are now left with gimped players that won’t benefit from all of Blu-ray’s features.

I’m not trying to feed the flames, but I feel it’s worth noting that even though HD DVD shipped first, their spec was finalized. Picture-in-picture and all.

Sources: High-Def Digest & Video Business


Not really a big deal, but that sucks if you dropped $1k on player to find it obsolete after a year.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline dunebug81

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #109 on: April 04, 2007, 12:53:34 PM »
Ya that kinda sucks if you didnt buy a ps3.  Really, who cares about pip?  I cant imagine wanting to watch 2 things at the same time especially if im trying to pay attention to a movie. 
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #110 on: April 04, 2007, 01:01:19 PM »
I think when they're talking about pip, they're talking about the little pop up video commentary blips similar to what hd dvd has.

From what I've heard, its a nice little feature for the common movies you've seen a bunch.

I was looking into a PS3, but think I'm going to opt for the 360 elite.  The modders have done more with the 360 and it seems more media machine reliable.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #111 on: April 04, 2007, 01:11:52 PM »
I think when they're talking about pip, they're talking about the little pop up video commentary blips similar to what hd dvd has.

From what I've heard, its a nice little feature for the common movies you've seen a bunch.

I was looking into a PS3, but think I'm going to opt for the 360 elite.  The modders have done more with the 360 and it seems more media machine reliable.

The Mallrats original DVD had this option - it made the commentary even better than it was before (and it's probably the second best dvd commentary of all time, only behind Spinal Tap).
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Offline dunebug81

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #112 on: April 04, 2007, 01:30:56 PM »
I think when they're talking about pip, they're talking about the little pop up video commentary blips similar to what hd dvd has.

From what I've heard, its a nice little feature for the common movies you've seen a bunch.

I was looking into a PS3, but think I'm going to opt for the 360 elite.  The modders have done more with the 360 and it seems more media machine reliable.

Ohh, ok that makes sense.  That would be kinda cool then.  I should get an HD DVD that has the pip and check it out.  I like the PS3/Blu-ray set because there are better movies out for blu-ray then on HD-DVD...but I do enjoy my xbox for games and the occasional HD-DVD movie that I do rent.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2007, 02:30:03 PM »
Got a 360 Elite this weekend and with it I bought the hddvd player.  It came with King Kong and I bought Friday Night Lights with it as well. (Explosions In The Sky did the soundtrack and its awesome).

I gotta say, I'm very pleased.  Right now my setup is 360 Elite HDDVD > HDMI > MarantzSR7001 >HDMI > Samsung HL-S6188W 61" 1080p DLP HDTV.

Watching the action scenes of King Kong and FNL I didn't notice any macroblocking or pixelating whatsoever.  The picture was crystal clear and the quality was unbelievable.  Very nice.

One thing I found odd, I still had black bars on the top and bottom of the screen.  I thought with a 1080p tv and a 1080p player, the image should fill the screen perfectly?  Both movies have the same aspect ratio and both say widescreen, so maybe thats what it is.  I dunno, looks good though and everything is proportionate it seems.

Now I just have to figure out how to get streaming video to play on the 360 properly.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2007, 02:37:59 PM »
Got a 360 Elite this weekend and with it I bought the hddvd player.  It came with King Kong and I bought Friday Night Lights with it as well. (Explosions In The Sky did the soundtrack and its awesome).

I gotta say, I'm very pleased.  Right now my setup is 360 Elite HDDVD > HDMI > MarantzSR7001 >HDMI > Samsung HL-S6188W 61" 1080p DLP HDTV.

Watching the action scenes of King Kong and FNL I didn't notice any macroblocking or pixelating whatsoever.  The picture was crystal clear and the quality was unbelievable.  Very nice.

One thing I found odd, I still had black bars on the top and bottom of the screen.  I thought with a 1080p tv and a 1080p player, the image should fill the screen perfectly?  Both movies have the same aspect ratio and both say widescreen, so maybe thats what it is.  I dunno, looks good though and everything is proportionate it seems.

Now I just have to figure out how to get streaming video to play on the 360 properly.

It's very rare to find a movie that is shot in 16x9, which is what widescreen televisions have as a ratio.  Most movies are 1.85:1 or 2.35:1, the former being a bit more common.  Because of that all movies will still have black bars, even in HD and even on widescreen televisions.
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #115 on: April 30, 2007, 02:52:27 PM »
So does anyone that has both HDDVD and BluRay have an opinion on the better format?  Not the vehicle (360 vs. PS3) but on the audio and video quality?  I see that the BluRay and HDDVD forces are both proclaiming themselves the winner but whats the reality on them.....

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #116 on: April 30, 2007, 03:01:52 PM »
So does anyone that has both HDDVD and BluRay have an opinion on the better format?  Not the vehicle (360 vs. PS3) but on the audio and video quality?  I see that the BluRay and HDDVD forces are both proclaiming themselves the winner but whats the reality on them.....

The reality is that they're technically pretty equal at the moment. BluRay has a theoretical advantage with larger disc space, but it's not likely going to be a big advantage to most people.
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #117 on: April 30, 2007, 03:05:05 PM »
So does anyone that has both HDDVD and BluRay have an opinion on the better format?  Not the vehicle (360 vs. PS3) but on the audio and video quality?  I see that the BluRay and HDDVD forces are both proclaiming themselves the winner but whats the reality on them.....

The reality is that they're technically pretty equal at the moment. BluRay has a theoretical advantage with larger disc space, but it's not likely going to be a big advantage to most people.

+T  Thanks.

All I ever see for the most part on other sites are people in one camp or the other mostly based on it either being a PS3 or 360 instead of the true technical merits of the formats. 

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #118 on: April 30, 2007, 04:39:27 PM »
I've never seen bluray yet, at least not on a real tv in someones home and I don't trust the ones in the big stores cuz you never know how they're really hooked up.  From things I've read though, they're pretty equal.  It seems that bluray is taking off now that the shortage of ps3's is over as more movies are coming out for it and their sales are going up.

I've read that a new larger storage version of hd dvd is coming out though later this year and that the players will just need to update their firmware in order to play them.  I guess that will take care of the disadvantage of the smaller storage on them.

I've read that Walmart is buying a ton of $300 hd dvd players to sell and promote in their stores, however, I also read that they currently have one for $350...so its not that big of a deal really.

Personally, I'd wager that next year at this time you'll be able to get a combo player that does both formats for under $200 and burners that do both for under $400.

John, you're right, both are 2.35:1


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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #119 on: April 30, 2007, 04:50:40 PM »
That timeline is a little aggressive, however those $300 HD-DVD players will go on sale for $199, which could be a HUGE deal this year. 

My guess is that combo players will be $500+ still next year, and combo burners will be even more.  The former would be a drop of 50% in price, and the latter doesn't even exist yet.
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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2007, 08:40:38 PM »
haha, you probably have a point, that does seem a bit agressive.  I just remember when I wanted one of those $370 sony dvd burners and then a couple of months later I got one for $150.  Heh, and now you can get one for almost free.

The rate at which technology moves excites me.


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2007, 11:00:07 PM »
The rate at which technology moves excites me.

+T

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2007, 11:37:12 PM »
The rate at which technology moves excites me.

+T

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I'll getcha tomorrow :)


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

Offline John Kelly

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2007, 11:45:38 PM »
It's a ticket fest in high definition! ;)
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2007, 12:57:54 AM »
It's a ticket fest in high definition! ;)

Is that ticket fest in 1080p or 1080i?    ;D

Offline Ed.

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Re: hd-dvd or bluray
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2007, 05:18:23 PM »
figured out streaming video on the 360, can even get 720p vids to play without hesitation.  I'm downloading a 1080p video now to see how that goes.

woot!


Because nothing says "I have lots of money and am sort of confused as to how to spend it" like Bose.

 

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