Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)

[Todd R]

Thinking about it more, if it helps with the camera analogy --

More megapixels are better, so you'd rather a 20mp camera over a 10mp camera. But what if the 20mp camera mfg couldn't really make a reliable sensor, and with their 20mp sensor, they randomly would get 5% of the pixels that would show up pink, no matter what you were taking a picture of. Now, would you rather have the 20mp camera or the 10mp camera?  What if the camera had a button for 10mp operation (and the pixels were all accurate) and a setting for 20mp operation, but again, you'd get a whoe bunch of pink pixels. Which settign would you choose?

The issue is actual, real world operation, not theoretical operation. None of us really knows whther our recorders or A/D's actually perform worse when set to perform at 24/96, and there is a lot of info out there that getting performance at 96 to be better than 48 is no easy task.

[aaronji]

A higher sampling rate produces a more accurate representation of the analog sound wave than a lower sampling rate will. It's as simple as that. And I'll always go with the best possible representation of the original signal.

In addition to what Todd said, please google "Nyquist" and "sampling theory", not to mention frequency response of human hearing, and then tell me "it's as simple as that"...

[earmonger]

Human hearing? Who said we are all humans?

[Sebastian]

In addition to what Todd said, please google "Nyquist" and "sampling theory", not to mention frequency response of human hearing, and then tell me "it's as simple as that"...

Actually, I don't have to Google that. I still have my lecture notes from University

What the Nyquist theorem states is that, to fully represent a signal with a frequency component F, you need at least a sampling frequency of 2F. For sampling frequencies >2F, the resulting digital representation will still be more accurate. While it's not necessary to represent frequencies higher than what the human ear can hear, the frequencies we can hear will be represented more accurately.

[adrianf74]

I'm sorry if this has been covered in this conversation before. I tried to search for it, but couldn't find it...

Has anyone used 32gb micro sd cards in the m-10? Does this work? If so, any specific cards to recommend?

-colargol

I like the Lexar Class 10 microSDHC cards.  I've been using one in my M10 since February without incident.  Love having over 30 hours available at 48/24. 

[aaronji]

What the Nyquist theorem states is that, to fully represent a signal with a frequency component F, you need at least a sampling frequency of 2F. For sampling frequencies >2F, the resulting digital representation will still be more accurate. While it's not necessary to represent frequencies higher than what the human ear can hear, the frequencies we can hear will be represented more accurately.

The other keyword there is "fully".  Other sources use "exactly", "perfectly", and "completely".  Maybe I am wrong, but the way I read it (in many sources) is that once you get above 2F there is no value in further increasing.  In fact, that is the point of the theorem.  As Lavry puts it:

The notion that more is better may appeal to one's common sense. Presented with analogies such as more pixels for better video, or faster clock to speed computers, one may be misled to believe that faster sampling will yield better resolution and detail. The analogies are wrong. The great value offered by Nyquist's theorem is the realization that we have ALL the information with 100% of the detail, and no distortions, without the burden of "extra fast" sampling.

[Sebastian]

The other keyword there is "fully".  Other sources use "exactly", "perfectly", and "completely".  Maybe I am wrong, but the way I read it (in many sources) is that once you get above 2F there is no value in further increasing.  In fact, that is the point of the theorem.  As Lavry puts it:

The notion that more is better may appeal to one's common sense. Presented with analogies such as more pixels for better video, or faster clock to speed computers, one may be misled to believe that faster sampling will yield better resolution and detail. The analogies are wrong. The great value offered by Nyquist's theorem is the realization that we have ALL the information with 100% of the detail, and no distortions, without the burden of "extra fast" sampling.

This is correct. All original frequencies are represented fully in a signal sampled with twice the highest frequency.

However, oversampling has some advantages, according to Wikipedia:

Oversampling helps avoid aliasing, improves resolution and reduces noise.

I have yet to see any proof that oversampling could in any way do any damage to a recording. Yes, processing takes significantly longer, but that is not a problem for me. Yes, 96kHz recordings will take up twice the space of 48kHz ones, but space is dirt cheap these days and I have enough of it.

There's really no need to argue over this. As far as I'm concerned, everybody can do it as they like. This was my last comment on this subject.

[Ozpeter]

More megapixels are better

Depends on the implementation - if packed into the same space as less MP then noise usually increases noticably.

Now what was this thread about?

[bluewingolive]

I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows.  Batt box necessary..?  Low sens capsules necessary..?  Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics?  What are your favorite mics?  FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me. 

[ScoobieKW]

The M10's plugin voltage is fairly low. While some mics will work with it, a battery box is highly recommended especially for high SPL shows.

[Ekib]

I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows.  Batt box necessary..?  Low sens capsules necessary..?  Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics?  What are your favorite mics?  FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me. 

Why would you not like to use a batterybox ?
Are there actually quality mic's for sale that don't have batteryboxes ? I can only think of the cheapest mic's on the market , like Sony used to make them .
Core Sound has a low cost version of their mic's available that require no batterybox ( http://www.core-sound.com/lcmics/1.php ) but why opt for a cheap version anyway if you are a serious taper ?

[bluewingolive]

I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows.  Batt box necessary..?  Low sens capsules necessary..?  Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics?  What are your favorite mics?  FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me. 

Why would you not like to use a batterybox ?
 but why opt for a cheap version anyway if you are a serious taper ?

Not sure...seeking answers...I'm unfamiliar with battery boxes and the need for them.  Logic dictates - I have something (an M10) that can provide plug in power...so why add another piece (like a battery box) to the chain..?  I guess that's the question.
Serious taper....not sure who/what that is...I've had my moments. 

[aaronji]

^^^ The DSM mics from guysonic work well with PIP from the M10 (according to guysonic; I have never tried it myself).  DPA has a DC version of the 4061s (I think they are 4063s?) that might also work.  There are probably others as well...Someone here (illconditioned?) posted about a few mics with which he had success.

[udovdh]

^^^ The DSM mics from guysonic work well with PIP from the M10 (according to guysonic; I have never tried it myself).  DPA has a DC version of the 4061s (I think they are 4063s?) that might also work.  There are probably others as well...Someone here (illconditioned?) posted about a few mics with which he had success.

Did anyone ever compare the types of mics that run well on PIP with ones that need a battery box and/or test PIP-qualified mics for sound quality related parameters?
I mean: is there really nothing to lose by going PIP-only when doing loud stuff with PIP-specific mics?
Links to posts etc are welcome.

[ScoobieKW]

I'd like to hear some first-hand opinions on running small mics w/ the M10 for high SPL shows.  Batt box necessary..?  Low sens capsules necessary..?  Does the M10 provide adequate plug in power for smaller mics?  What are your favorite mics?  FWIW I run full-size rig..so this smaller application is all new to me. 

Why would you not like to use a batterybox ?
 but why opt for a cheap version anyway if you are a serious taper ?

Not sure...seeking answers...I'm unfamiliar with battery boxes and the need for them.  Logic dictates - I have something (an M10) that can provide plug in power...so why add another piece (like a battery box) to the chain..?  I guess that's the question.
Serious taper....not sure who/what that is...I've had my moments. 

The key point here, is that not all recorders put out the same voltage for plug-in power. The M10 in particular is fairly anemic, and while it will work with a few mics and quieter material, in most cases it isn't enough and a 9V battery box will be much more reliable. The Church Audio battery box is basically a cap that fits on the end of a 9V battery. Can't get much smaller.