Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)

[fmaderjr]

Here's what I'm planning:

Internal Mics (will buy external later this year)
24/48
Manual Mode
Levels close to -12 (maybe creep towards -6?)
LCF Off
Limiter On (don't plan on getting anywhere near it)
Mic Sensitivity...Low?

I agree with all of these choices. There are varying options about the limiter, but I am one who leaves it on and sets levels so that it will never (hopefully) kick in. If it does kick in due to a big spike in the volume, I think it the limiter will sound better than clipping.

[rigpimp]

.

[ScoobieKW]

If you don't plan on getting near the limit, you might as well not use it. The problem is that if you use the limiter you won't be able to tell when it kicks in. I've heard too many recordings that sound like crap because of limiters.

You do have a way to know when the limiter kicks in, the red lights illuminate. As a safety backup it's better than brickwalling. Hit the limiter a few times in a show last week. I listened to the section several times, and it's good.

Now I wouldn't slam into it as if it was tape, but since it doesn't change the signal unless it's going to brickwall... why not leave it on?

[Lostbrook]

Thanks for the responses.  I've since been to two different venues and recorded four bands.  Here are some random observations:

First night - small theater, stealth table-top recording.
The opening band was loud and "boomy."  Three songs in I decided to turn on the LCF.  Between acts I checked out the results with my headphones and the LCF clearly helped.  The limiter was on as a safety net and sure enough I blew the levels in the first thirty seconds.  My home test settings weren't even close to what I needed in the theater.  I used a recording level between 2 and 3 to keep the peaks between -12 and -6.  I turned all lights on the unit off (backlight and LEDs.) Monitored everything with a small squeeze flashlight, the bulb covered with tape for dimming.  Main act was less "boomy" but I ran with LCF on anyway and am pleased with the results.  Had no issues with the limiter. 

Second night - large coffee shop, stealth table-top again.  This time I was sitting sideways and couldn't block the view from behind the recorder with my body.  I covered it discreetly (not the mics of course) but still felt exposed every time I leaned over to check the levels. Right before the show,I saw the comment about leaving the limiter off so I decided to try it.  LCF was off as were all running lights.  First act was solo acoustic and not too loud but I still wasn't confident about the levels, especially with the limiter off. With my poor eyesight, I starting wishing I had left the LEDS on.  For the main act, I turned on the LCF based on the sound check I had heard. I also turned the LEDs on and immediately the guy across from me asked if I was taping.  The green lights were on more than I wanted but there were plenty of quiet moments during the show so I didn't know what to do.  Red never illuminated.  I was never comfortable with my settings but hesitated to make too many noisy adjustments. Can't wait for the day I'm wearing the mics and can discreetly adjust the M10 in my lap.  Might also need bifocals! 

It's been a real learning experience for this old taper.  Now I know some of the obstacles and will make some adjustments.  Still analyzing all the results.       

[brad.bartels]

This is just my 2 cents, but I always leave the limiter turned on (regardless of recorder, I have an Olympus LS-10 and a Sony PCM-10) - I try to set the levels so you're peaking at -6 dB or lower (record @ 24 bit), but not always reasonable to do in a not so open situation. I figure it's a safety net and that the alternative (overloading / clipping) would be worse. Maybe this is not the right approach, but seems to me if you aim to not ever have to rely on the limiter, that it serves as a safety net if you don't get things set right and the input is a little hotter than you expect. Kind of like insurance.

My view - don't rely on it, but have it active in case things are not as you expect and you can't adjust like you'd like to.

[eman]

IMHO limiter or not your recording is toast if it gets that high. Essentially, the peaks are going to start to be attenuated at a lower level than if you leave it off. If it only kicks in when you hit 0, then it would only do the same thing as clipping. I'd be curious to see at what level the limiter starts working. I don't know what the algorithm is but I would imagine the attenuation starts at some level and increases to infinity before the level hits 0. Quite a few of my recordings go right up the the ceiling, and even clip the tiniest bit, and these would sound like crap if I had a limiter on. The -6dB is the insurance, not the limiter. If something goes up another 6dB you want that to sound good as well.

[Lostbrook]

I'm leaning towards limiter off and being more careful with my levels. 
What are the schools of thought on the LCF?
Does anyone set Mic Sens to High? 

Thanks!

[udovdh]

I'd be curious to see at what level the limiter starts working.

Same here. I could not find stuff about that in the manual except that up to 12 dB of 'over' can be compensated for.
But where does it cut in? At what slope?

[Ekib]

During tonight's gig there was no left signal , so I was only able to record the show just on the  the right channel.
Now back home , everything works perfect ..both left and right . Whatever I do , move the mic cable etc. . It works flawless.
And yes, I pushed the plug into the mic in the way it should be .

Does anyone here have had problems using the "mic in".
I am asking since I really want to know what happened.

[udovdh]

I am asking since I really want to know what happened.

Is your cabling OK?
Set up your deck and mics in record/pause mode, use the headphone output, and wiggle the cabling, plugs etc to find if there are any loose contacts while listening on the phones.

[ArchivalAudio]

some limiters can work ok
but you can get  "breathing " type of sound
I'd stay away from it  run levels low  and boost in post
especially in 24 bit it's not a big deal.
you'll get a more natural sound w/o a limiter

[jbell]

some limiters can work ok
but you can get  "breathing " type of sound
I'd stay away from it  run levels low  and boost in post
especially in 24 bit it's not a big deal.
you'll get a more natural sound w/o a limiter

[dedhed69]

hi all
can anyone tell me where is the best place and price to buy a new sony pcm-m10 (any experiences where you bought it new)
i have found it for $249 free shipping at sweetwater with free 2 year warrenty but it does not say what comes in  the box. it looks like the ac power cord is not included. i have never bought from amazon. i am old schoool so buying fom the net is still pretty new. i used to tape in the 80s (some late 70s) and my last show was in 2007 with a sony mini disc (steve miller). i would like to stealth tape again. done alot of research on external mics (prefer cards i think). want stay in $200-$250 (sound professionals, core sound and church audio ect ect) including battery box or preamp. tapeing acoustic in coffee house to small clubs (local) and theatres. to outdoor venues depending on my health. also taping voice only. any info. and/or insight would be great. thanks in advance.
happy jack 

[eman]

I don't think it matters too much who you buy from. The Sony product comes with a power cable- which I have not yet used as even rechargeables (NiMH) last forever in it (there's a setting for the battery meter to read out time remaining on NiMH). $250 is a great price for this great piece of gear, I don't think you are going to budge too much from that. There's no point in buying one used when you can get a new one for that $$. But it's a great recorder and I think you are making the right choice. You will have to buy a micro SD card with a reasonable amount of space on it-16G will go all day at a festival running 48/24 (I accidentally ordered a standard SD). Got mine from BH Photo.

[rastasean]

most folks buy gear from b&h at bhphotovideo.com

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/638090-REG/Sony_PCM_M10_BLACK_PCM_M10_Portable_Audio_Recorder.html

$250 there